American Kempo Karate

[jorvik]

Quote
"Jorvic , i agree with you 100 % that all martial arts are a break down and restructure and mixture or other arts. however the problem is and always will be when the new art is missing key components. that within the restructure the most critical basics are lost and forgoten. as i think i said before kenpo has some good points like flow of action but lack some very basic power and stability components along with the knowledge about the chemical cocktail stuff that Van talks about. alot of kenpo's stuff is very fine detail movements that will not work but they think it will. "

My viewpoint on martial arts is essentially we start with strength , which we then try to overcome with skill and then later when we apply the skill we develop stratgies on how to deliver the skill against strength ......and of course there is a mix of all this going on all the time. The problem is now that a lot of the skill has been lost and folks are trying to get around this by just applying brute strength and infering or implying that this is some sort of "Skill" in itself, when it patently is not ...this is what Jim calls the "classical Disconnect" ( a brilliant term )..............it can be brought about by many things in Okinawa karate was used to drill the military, in the US and Europe Tai-Chi was used by little old ladies to keep fit......when this happened a lot of the knowledge was either lost or not past on.
If you look at a lot of Japanese karate they stand in long low stance why?.how does this help them fight?
.or with their hands swinging by their hips.again what use is this?......to my eyes this is no different than kempo....and some modern styles of kempo are pretty good to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLt85gxf ... re=related

[JimHawkins]

The problem is now that a lot of the skill has been lost and folks are trying to get around this by just applying brute strength and infering or implying that this is some sort of "Skill" in itself, when it patently is not

Well to be fair, you did mention that was in a sense the beginning.. So there is skill in mainly yang elements, but with a bit of yin--or more so depending on the art like BJJ--as we see in reality fighting and natural fighting but perhaps less so in the mix of hard and soft application of some classical methods: Structural speed, change, using their energy, etc, which I agree represents the higher levels of skill and martial art..

[Josann]

To me kenpo appears to be a great style that has been bastardized by the almighty buck. It would seem to me that it was changed during the 1960's and 70's when karate and kung fu was the newest thing (as mma is today). People capitalized on it and celebrities were doing it as a hip kind of workout. Similar things are happening to mma and krav maga today. Not necessarily bad and even inevitable. In the 70's anything labelled "shaolin" was cool and what could be cooler that "shaolin kenpo karate kung fu"? Remember the mystique, the register you hands as deadly weapons, show you your heart before you die excitement?

Here are two examples of what I am referring to:
the bad example of it being sold out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CaFntgb2nQ

And the example of a video on this sites home page of what appears to be a great comprehensive style.
http://www.jeffspeakman.com/

[hoshin]

Josann,
just to clarify a point, kenpo karate did not exist untill the 60"s well maybe very late 50's like 58 at the earliest. before that it was professor chows fathers kung fu and james mitose's shotokan karate.

Jim, you were looking for an example ,
in one kata there is a "north " and a "south" side of the kata, the two kata are oposite sequences so the two fit together. one side would be attacking and the other would be blocking. i actually love the kata and how they fit together. however there is one action where the attacker "A " throws a straight punch to the others "B" chest. person "B" sinks into a low horse stance and lifts his hand "thumb away from fingers" in the shape of a cup or mouth if you will and catches the hand in this mouth. as he sinks the hand rises and pushes the punch over him. the problem with this action is that even in a controlled situation IE the dojo students always get hit in the face because they are esentially lifting it into their face, not tho mention if you were under stress you would compleatly miss the puch all together.

steve

[JimHawkins]

Jim, you were looking for an example ,
in one kata there is a "north " and a "south" side of the kata, the two kata are oposite sequences so the two fit together. one side would be attacking and the other would be blocking. i actually love the kata and how they fit together. however there is one action where the attacker "A " throws a straight punch to the others "B" chest. person "B" sinks into a low horse stance and lifts his hand "thumb away from fingers" in the shape of a cup or mouth if you will and catches the hand in this mouth. as he sinks the hand rises and pushes the punch over him. the problem with this action is that even in a controlled situation IE the dojo students always get hit in the face because they are esentially lifting it into their face, not tho mention if you were under stress you would compleatly miss the puch all together.

Right, well, hard to fully know what's going on there.. But I tend to think that either the form was never intended to be used that way, the move was never intended to be used that way and/or the move was something someone pulled out of their hat... I am not really a believer in separating offense and defense nor much of a believer in blocks nor that the interpretations as expressed in many TMA have much to do with genuine martial art--in terms of how the original root systems view such methods.

[fivedragons]

This is the last time I will do this.

Listen very closely.

Every single move in every kata or "kung fu salamander blind master with a walking stick of death" form is meant to hurt the person who is attacking you.

That is it.

I repeat, that is it.

[Steele]

This is the last time I will do this.

Listen very closely.

Every single move in every kata or "kung fu salamander blind master with a walking stick of death" form is meant to hurt the person who is attacking you.

That is it.

I repeat, that is it.

Agreed!
I have been following this thread closely. Great responses!
I am still grappling with the practical aspect of TMA ( Uechi in particular) vs the practical aspect of American Kempo.
My limited exp. in martial arts shows me that while Uechi is great for conditioning, it is it's practicality that has me wondering....If I need to defend myself will my Uechi training get me out of trouble...?
It seems with Kempo that system is designed for practical self defense?
What are your thoughts?

[Dale Houser]

If I need to defend myself will my Uechi training get me out of trouble...?
It seems with Kempo that system is designed for practical self defense?
What are your thoughts?

I am in no measure near an expert. But I found very good answers to that in Rory Miller's book, Meditiations on Violence. There is another thread on it, I highly suggest reading it.

[Jason Rees]

I don't see how Kempo was 'designed' for practical self-defense. If you want a 'designed' martial art, check out Russian or Israeli martial arts. Krav Maga is a very bare-bones system, and should be very effective. Do I think it's as comprehensive a style as, say, Uechi? Or two martial arts learned in conjunction, like Uechi and Aikido or a grappling style? No. But it's 'practical.' If that's what you're looking for.

And I'd say flashy gi's are out.

[Jake Steinmann]

....If I need to defend myself will my Uechi training get me out of trouble...?

No.

YOU will get you out of trouble (or possibly into it).

Tony Blauer has a wonderful quote on one of his audios: “Your style is not responsible for your life. YOU ARE.”

If you are concerned about realistic self-defense training, there are a lot of great resources out there. I don’t thing Kenpo is the best place to look. Browse around this Van’s forum a bit, and you’ll find a lot of good recommendations.

[hoshin]

fivedragons,
while i have no clue what you are saying about the "salamander" i would respectfully disagree on your statement in general. there are actions to gain better postition , actions to unbalance your opponent, actions to trap and actions controll. these actions of course would be followed by an action to hurt or disable.

jim ,
i used this action as the example because it was given by Ed Parker himself in one of his books published in 1958. and it is the way i learnt it as well back in the 80"s so there should be no degregation in meaning or understanding from him to now. i know my words do not give justice to the actions but if you can see in your mind what i am describing it is exactly the way Parker intented the kata to be. where he learnt the kata i dont know , he says its an old kung fu kata but who knows if this is true or if even he didnt really know what the actions where for.

[JimHawkins]

i would respectfully disagree on your statement in general. there are actions to gain better postition , actions to unbalance your opponent, actions to trap and actions controll. these actions of course would be followed by an action to hurt or disable.

Amen brother!

The implementation of any real combative strategy, no matter how simple and direct is made up of much more than 2000 variations of its final objective--not to mention a myriad of attributes.. It is IMO in part these nuances that are often missing, lost or just lost on some..

i used this action as the example because it was given by Ed Parker himself in one of his books published in 1958. and it is the way i learnt it as well back in the 80"s so there should be no degregation in meaning or understanding from him to now. i know my words do not give justice to the actions but if you can see in your mind what i am describing it is exactly the way Parker intented the kata to be. where he learnt the kata i dont know , he says its an old kung fu kata but who knows if this is true or if even he didnt really know what the actions where for.

I hear you..

I am just very cynical about what and how things have been passed on in general.. Most of the "stuff" out there IMO has little or nothing to do with that from whence it came.. I'd have to see a specific element and its explanation before I could really make an informed comment on it.

[Van Canna]

....If I need to defend myself will my Uechi training get me out of trouble...?

No.

YOU will get you out of trouble (or possibly into it).

Tony Blauer has a wonderful quote on one of his audios: “Your style is not responsible for your life. YOU ARE.”

If you are concerned about realistic self-defense training, there are a lot of great resources out there. I don’t thing Kenpo is the best place to look. Browse around this Van’s forum a bit, and you’ll find a lot of good recommendations.

Thanks, Jake.

But what you write is very true.

The style means not much [although it helps] in a last ditch defense.

And I agree with Jim that any system 'block oriented' is an iffy proposition in survival engagement.


The thing is that sometimes I feel not many Uechi practitioners understand or teach the way Uechi Ryu was intended…

As Five Dragon said…to hurt the other guy.

If you are not willing or able to ‘put a hurt’ on the other guy quickly and definitively in the first few seconds of engagement, you may not make it out of there alive.

It is as Tim Larkin points out_ you always find a way to walk away from social violence… when you have a choice.

When you don’t…it means you are in an ‘asocial violence’ predicament… and it is now that you use overwhelming violence of your own to forestall it.

So is Uechi any good for this ‘put the hurt’ on the other guy?

But of course it is…if understood…that is.

The style has a blend of circular and straight chain ‘strike-pull-control-redirect and dissolve’ of the opponent’s center with ‘finish techniques’ _

The ‘blocks’ we talk about and accept in Uechi…are not really blocks…although one may choose to employ the moves as such.

All the moves that look like blocks in Uechi are really preventive strikes/techniques designed to shut down the opponent’s platform in the blink of an eye, when you move in on him in ‘between his heart beats’ either with ‘chain strikes’ like we have in Seisan kata that can move as fast as lightning, or with quick penetrating circles in rotation to sweep away in a ‘hiccup’ moment _ any perceived straight line or circular attacks…enter, rotate, slam down, and finish him on the ground.

One example of the versatility of Uechi moves is in Sanseiryu’s opening move that so many teach as blocking straight punches…utterly ridiculous.

If you are ever down my way I will show you a lightning fast entry and KO with that move that you won’t see anywhere else.

It is all in the understanding of the dynamics of confrontation.

Plus, your body should be conditioned daily to ‘hone’ your natural weapons…or best not to employ them lest they break like glass leaving you to tend to your shards.

[jorvik]

Quote
"“Your style is not responsible for your life. YOU ARE.”


but why do we do a style?....surely it is to safeguard our life?........we rely on a style and the techniques in a style and to a great extent our instructors knowledge....To be frank I don't rely on anybody.not even Mr. Blauer .or any style

[Van Canna]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 79510.html

What do you know of this Ray?