Let's discuss cooperative drills - II

[hoshin]

_______________________________________________________________________
Why does everyone on these Forums assume that "a real attacker" is the predator of doom with invincible powers and awesome controll.
_______________________________________________________________________

my point Bill was that unless they are really stupid, no one goes around attacking people that they are afraid of. this attacker will have already sized you up and has assumed he can take you. he thinks your an easy target, therefore he is in the predator mindset. i think most people will be caught off gaurd when an attack comes and their mind will be in scamble mode. now our training is suposed to help all of that but untill it happens you really dont know how you will react. yes, you can turn it around , i never said you cant. but i do think that many times the fight is won in the first few seconds. if you can gather yourself and get thru the first few seconds then i would hope we could all turn it around.

_______________________________________________________________________

My special forces instructor constantly would remind us to see the "normal man" in virtually all bullys. Motorcycle gang thug? Spends all his life sitting on his butt. Probably out of shape. From "the hood"? Not as dangerous as the fellow you meet training for football, and that guy's too busy to be making mayhem.
_______________________________________________________________________

yes just like ROCKY 4 the machine is really human after all.
i think you are actually under estamating these people. i am a biker. i am not a Hells Angel type. not a yuppy type. im in between , but i have been in bars with angels and and have been to a few Vigilante gang parties. i would never want to cross these guys.

one of my students was taken out by a 15 year old kid. very humbleing. he walked past a dumpster and the kid that he never saw smashed him in the head with a hunk of 2x4. he was watching the other two that were farther away. out cold. he was lucky to wake up.

my number one rule in combat.....
Man does battle not for combat but for victory , and will do everything he can to avoid the first while attaining the second.

THAT Bill is why i think the way i do. i dont give a crap about the punk who is willing to listen to my schtick and i am able to talk to him. that never enters my mind. i am worried about the kid at mcdonalds who will smash me in the head while i am not looking. just because he needs a few bucks.

[jorvik]

Well that is really the difference between a fight and an assault. You should train for both, although the only thing that will protect you from an assault is awareness ........I think that a kiai is important here for motivating you , i.e. getting you moving.........unless you have been in a couple of fights it's hard to get motivated, you just hope it will all stop and go away, or you are in "Denial" "I can't be getting hit, this can't be happening to me"....you have to be able to switch on very quickly.I agree with you regarding bikers.......I always remember a couple of fat leather bound guys sitting in a cafe .when in came some cyclists..in a fight all things being equal my money would be on the cyclists. another thing I can't stand is fat middle aged tough guys ( which is why, after a couple of months inactivity I am dieting like crazy.I don't want that monica
As to what you said and drills......I think that karate can only take you so far .after that it is up to you, and I think the curriculm covers that..K.Drills etc may be rubbish but it is a starting point for folks who have never used martial arts.and certainly not an Endpoint. What I really don't understand is folks saying that all this should be changed just to fit in with their viewpoint..if they are so concerned then don't do the style ......do something you consider better......personally I think the emphasis on "Conditioning" is a lot more contentious than the drills.........how is toughening your shins going to help you when somebody punches you as hard as they can in the head

[Bill Glasheen]

So why do you/we chamber in sanchin.

I'm sure you have your answers and your points of view, Van, and that's fine. We need the plethora of perspectives.

I have my own.

I revert back to a view of kata also shared by Patrick McCarthy. They are a study of human motion. Period. IF you know how to use them, you can take the pieces and parts of them and make what you want with your practice. If you view them literally the way some Christians see The Bible as a literal document, well... That's not a view I share.

I don't have to believe in the Greek gods to have gained an immense amount of knowledge from having read and savored stories from Greek Mythology.



Bottom line? I'm not a literalist here, Van. I see the arm coming back, I see the arm going forward, I see the arm coming to post. Rinse and repeat.

And I have so, so many things I can do with those elements.

This is the best way (as an engineer) that I can describe what I see in Sanchin.



Just to give a stupid-simple example... I teach that the rear elbow thrust in the hojoundo comes from the Sanchin chamber.

But the beauty of it isn't the elbow in isolation; it's in the context of the before and the after. The beauty is in the pendulum action of technique. As you unload your energy into one direction, you can capture it to be released again in another. It's there in the flow of the kata if you look for it. And when you find it and see it, you'll see that there's a logic to the order of technique in virtually all of our kata - sort of like a kata grammar.

There is also one more operating principle here. In general it's a good idea to make things BIGGER and LONGER when you practice. Because when you're under stress, you'll naturally make motions smaller anyway. A little scenario training under stress and debriefing will teach you how all this works.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

my point Bill was that unless they are really stupid, no one goes around attacking people that they are afraid of.

What you say is true.

My point is that YOU can play role reversal both in the dojo and on the street.

i think most people will be caught off gaurd when an attack comes and their mind will be in scamble mode. now our training is suposed to help all of that but untill it happens you really dont know how you will react.

My point? Shame on us if we haven't done our homework. Shame on us if we haven't dissected these situations ad nauseum in the dojo, in our reading, and in our visualization.

One of my favorite scenario games we play in my dojo is my Barroom Brawl. We generally do it in slo-mo to keep people from getting killed. Darren Laur and other RBSD experts in fact recommend it for the soft wiring of desirable responses. In my game, I implore people not to pair up. It's a free-for-all in the middle - sometimes with "toys" sitting around for people to use on each other. The first goal is to look for someone vulnerable, and pounce on them in numbers. Think like the predator. The second goal is NOT to be that person whom everyone sees is an easy target.

Everybody eventually gets theirs. Everyone gets to feel what it's like to be the predator, and what it's like to be the prey.

Then you realize that life can be like that - LONG before you're dumb enough to put yourself in a position where you are the target. And even if you find yourself there at a moment in time, life is a fluid thing. The tables can turn if you keep your wits about you.

As for bikers, well... Been there, done that. I was a biker. Fear this!!!

I'm not that impressed with myself. And having lived on "the other side" in many aspects of life, I can see the fruit of the looms under every tough guy. EVERY sub-population has its statistical distribution of individuals. Your average guy is an average guy, and the one-percent guy is going to give you problems. It is what it is.

I still may get killed facing someone who doesn't intimidate me, but not because I shat my pants.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

It is really very simple in my view, knowledge and experience, Bill.

1. Movements done in Kata are a study of body mechanics that have many usages. As you know movements properly done in kata are not done to program any specific application but rather to open the mind to many applications.

In addition to what you wrote _ I see the the draw back as a grasping pulling (lock and break) programming because the chambering action first moves across the body as you know.

2. Conversely _ the chambering done in the Kumites is very task SPECIFIC to a straight draw back before striking, thus imprinting THAT specific purpose and action.

3. So I think we can clearly see the difference between what is imprinted in Kata and what is imprinted in Kumite by the chamber.

Nobody in his right mind wants to imprint a chamber before striking because it will waste precious milliseconds giving the opponent the advantage, and also create a ‘read’ of the tool about to be used.

4. Any drill specifically for self defence should be based on natural spontaneous whip like techniques using body wave action as the propulsive force behind the closest weapon to target being activated within the space of inches without having to rely on a chamber to work effectively, in the manner in which Tony Blauer and others teach.

Now let’s go over this once again:

What we are discussing here is what the drills impart, with any drill we need to be aware of the flaws …. Rory mentioned ‘training artifact’ _

What we have determined is that the kumites are a useful tool, but the question remains a tool for what

We have established they can be useful for timing, distance, and co-ordination etc.

This is great, co-ordination is important but I think we can agree it can be achieved by any challenging drill.

That leaves timing and distance.

And that gets to what the drills are for.

They are for maintaining a distance where one can comfortably receive and give force. This happens in the drills…the comfortable giving and receiving of force_ no problem.

However we must be aware of what this is for …what are we imprinting in our students?

This is a training artifact, this is a strategy for a karate game, and it is for sparring …read again why master Uechi devised these drills for.

As any accomplished martial artist knows , this strategy only works when the opponent has a similar objective , to be the first to strike without taking any kind of hit (even glancing) of their own …this is how we perform the kumites.

But in a real fight on the street _ any committed attacker of malicious intent, will not allow such timing and distance, it will be a barrage in overcoming momentum.

The ‘distance control’ argument in kumite...won’t wash in a real fight…but it will in sparring back and forth action, what the drills were designed for.

This is not the drills fault, the drills are just fine for the purpose they were designed. Do they help a real fight dynamics…yes and no _ depending upon what you are constantly imprinting physically and mentally with all the talk to our students as street reality practice.


Can they be done in different ways to get them closer to reality? Sure…but even then they would have to be subjected to peer review and good discussions such as this one.

Some practitioners feel that _ The Drills are held up as good training for the very attributes that make them flawed for self protection when in fact it is the attacks and defenses that are the important concepts.

We need to establish the difference between distance and position; we need to establish the difference between sport strategy and personal defense strategy.

The drills can be useful in a karate tag way, but we must remember the flaws, not with the drill but with the strategy imparted and held above the drills themselves.

It makes no sense to be sacredly worshipping these sport strategies in a system developed for close range and effective self defense. Uechi Ryu


Rory wrote that the drills have their uses, but do not mistake the flaws for the lesson. Is he wrong? What is he trying to say and why?


This is what makes such discussions priceless; they are not bashings but an exploring of critical concepts of the system.

Unfortunately many with the insight must of course be relegated to the benches, the uncomfortableness of the reality’s examination being too much for some as I see it.

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

I'm mostly with you on your analyses.

I still wonder why anyone cares so much. They're just exercises. They count 5% on an Okinawan Uechi Ryu Dan exam, which pretty much sums up how Okinawa feels about them. Nice stuff, but... you still have 95% of your work to do.

The biggest reason I am a fan of them, Van, is because they help me teach people how to work with each other safely. Without them, our classes would have literally orders of magnitude more injuries from partners not knowing how to do what they mean and mean what they do. And if every attempt at working with a partner results in an injury, then most dojos ultimately would be reduced to kata queens. With that in mind, I find them invaluable.

Now... On to some specifics. This is just nitpicking, Van. No biggie.

In addition to what you wrote _ I see the the draw back as a grasping pulling (lock and break) programming because the chambering action first moves across the body as you know.

2. Conversely _ the chambering done in the Kumites is very task SPECIFIC to a straight draw back before striking, thus imprinting THAT specific purpose and action.

3. So I think we can clearly see the difference between what is imprinted in Kata and what is imprinted in Kumite by the chamber.

I'm not sure I see eye-to-eye with your comparison here, Van. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't know if you're just customizing the data to support your position on a discussion.

Clearly all Uechi Ryu Karate yakusoku kumite AND bunkai kumite have Okinawan karate artifacts. As Bobby once said, this is a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes. When you're performing The Big Three, you see one set of movements that clearly have a Chinese author. When you get into partner exercises, then movements tend to have that Vanilla Okinawan Karate flavor. You know... the seiken punches, the chambering, etc. What-ever... I don't get too worked up over these artifacts. I was so used to them after having done Nippon Shorin Ken that it wasn't a biggie.

Nobody in his right mind wants to imprint a chamber before striking because it will waste precious milliseconds giving the opponent the advantage, and also create a ‘read’ of the tool about to be used.

And yet chambering exists everywhere in our training - including in the bunkai kumite.

I don't know about you, but I don't chamber when I engage in sport sparring. So if Kyu and Dan yakusoku kumite were designed to help me with that, well the chambering artifact didn't imprint. Furthermore, I don't see it imprinting with any of my students as well.

4. Any drill specifically for self defence should be based on natural spontaneous whip like techniques using body wave action as the propulsive force behind the closest weapon to target being activated within the space of inches without having to rely on a chamber to work effectively, in the manner in which Tony Blauer and others teach.

That's a bold and highly limiting statement, Van. I couldn't disagree more.

There are many ways to shut your opponent down, and there are many legitimate ways to generate energy in a lethal force encounter. While I'm a big fan of Sequential Summation of Movement, I would never consider restricting myself to just that method of delivering force.

• A simple thrust of one of my pointy things in the suprasternal notch doesn't take body wave power. It just takes dL/dt with a few fingers or with a thumb.
• A rear naked choke has nothing to do with body wave mechanics. The same is true with many joint manipulation techniques - all of which can be found in principles of Uechi Ryu movement. That's less tiger and more dragon (or snake).
• A simple eye pluck just takes grabbing and the right "shucking" move with your thumb. When you see it done, the boshiken in Sanchin suddenly takes on a new meaning.
• A simple testicle squeeze is what it is.
• Jousting is one of my favorite ways to use an elbow. This isn't about body wave mechanics. It's about hitting an object coming at you with perfect posture while you hold your "pole" as strongly as you can.

Rory mentioned ‘training artifact’

Nice way to characterize it. You'll note I used the same language. It's engineering terminology. Rory's up there on my list of favorite people (for more than just his knowledge about the many martial domains).

Much of what you say next is fine, Van. For the most part we agree. The Uechi yakusoku kumites are good for some things. But for other things... use another tool. We're all on board.

However then you say this.

But in a real fight on the street _ any committed attacker of malicious intent, will not allow such timing and distance, it will be a barrage in overcoming momentum.

Every time someone says 'a real fight is like this', I read with great skepticism. Because the truth is,

• Real fights come in many, many flavors.
• Real fights are often limited in nature. A LEO can't just do anything he wants. Even a soldier is limited in what he can or can't do. Citizens are often similarly hamstrung.
• Not all attackers go "all out." In fact I see very few of these.
• Not all attackers know what they are doing.
• I've seen just as many many-on-one and many-on-many self-defense situations as I've seen classic "duels." It seems so many people who worry at night about the bad guy boogeyman picture this single warrior of doom. I wish... That changes the self-defense situation enormously. Suddenly grappling on the ground for extended periods seems like an exceptionally dumb idea. And distance is suddenly your friend.
• Real fights often involve weapons, in which case lots of empty-hand training needs to be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to fight with and against weapons, you need to train with and against those weapons. That isn't classic Uechi Ryu, although the style has some nice principles that transfer.
  
  And for what it's worth... When facing a weapon, distance most definitely is your friend. You either want to have a lot of distance, or be on top of them. The in-between part doesn't work so well.

These are just a few of the caveats worth mentioning. I'm sure there are more.

I am a lot more comfortable with these conversations, Van, when we're simultaneously looking at some real data.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Really enjoying this conversation, Bill.

To start with:

Bill

I still wonder why anyone cares so much. They're just exercises.

Well now _ then why if the drills are so unimportant do they get defended so vigorously with ‘fixed bayonets’…I used to love that Infantry command on the training field.

And why is the ‘proper performance’ of the drills a big part of grading for advanced ranks?

Or if someone 'cannot do them well' as the charge has been going around now and then...or even says he doesn’t care for them _they get treated as second class citizens? After all you say they are not that important...they're just exercises...No? So why the knotted panties?

Also, if we can assume for the conversation here…of being attacked by someone who is a serious threat, why isn’t training for the worst case a good idea?

Don’t you think that we as students and teachers of a martial art, with the responsibility of teaching students who come to us for learning self protection….would benefit from being clear whether we are training for self protection or mutual confrontation ? Aren't the drills going to be seen as training for mutual confrontation by a DA, judge, or trier of facts?

Just some thoughts. I know you will disagree, but the readers will see it.

[Van Canna]

Hey Bill,

We can continue this dance until dawn. My 'nickname' has been 'Nighthawk' for many years now, for my lovely night incursions in PC land and other more 'rewarding' sorties So I can keep going all night long if you wish

I still wonder why anyone cares so much.

_Well, it seems you’re in the same boat with the rest, as you devote so much of your time addressing the subject. Smile.

And _ maybe it is because people see things in them that others continue to miss, worthy of discussion. No big deal there…these forums were intended for discussions and dissent…it is the human condition, Bill.

Remember that we all keep practicing and teaching the drills even as we argue about them.

[Van Canna]

And also that in some classes/schools the drills seem to be practiced to ‘obsession point’…so I guess they do care.

Nice stuff, but... you still have 95% of your work to do.

Precisely.

The biggest reason I am a fan of them, Van, is because they help me teach people how to work with each other safely. Without them, our classes would have literally orders of magnitude more injuries from partners not knowing how to do what they mean and mean what they do. And if every attempt at working with a partner results in an injury, then most dojos ultimately would be reduced to kata queens. With that in mind, I find them invaluable.

I have never disagreed with this…so answer this question…why do you think I still teach them? And what makes you think that people who argue the drills don’t still practice them, or some other form of drills that get the same results you can actually see, and in complete safety?

Ha...yes...Kata Queens...

... ‘Kata queens’ is the moniker we, the Uechi New England pioneers, assigned to the students who did not wish to enter open tournaments or competed just in kata events.

I'm not sure I see eye-to-eye with your comparison here, Van. I see what you're trying to say, but I don't know if you're just customizing the data to support your position on a discussion.

Customizing is for the cars I buy Bill.

[Van Canna]

.[/quote]Clearly all Uechi Ryu Karate yakusoku kumite AND bunkai kumite have Okinawan karate artifacts.[/quote] Yes, and they should continue to be practiced keeping in mind that they are artifacts designed by Master Uechi with a specific objective in mind.

And yet chambering exists everywhere in our training - including in the bunkai kumite.

Well, I have no idea how you practice and teach the bunkai, but What you see or should see in bunkai is a minimal chamber performed at extreme close quarters as ‘all in one’ for defensive applications as opposed to the long range staccato applications we see in kumite designed for long range.

I posted the concept of the ‘all in one’ that was the trademark of Kanbun’s teachings…few years back.

It is the _ Ikkyudo. All in one stroke _ that is the most effective way to imprint.

It achieves the forcing of the attacker's blows aside and opens targets thus exposed at closer range…both ways have to be done WITH counter all in one.

Breyette sensei showed me this awesome concept that he did at blinding speed as taught by Toyama sensei. Too bad you weren’t there to see it. And when he showed me the concept at work during 'jiu Kobo' it was frightening. That is real Uechi as far as I am concerned.

This is the essence of bunkai imprint.

[Van Canna]

Just 'Nighthawking' around, Bill... in my 'customized' Bimmer



I wrote ….Any drill specifically for self defense should be based on natural spontaneous whip like techniques using body wave action as the propulsive force behind the closest weapon to target being activated within the space of inches without having to rely on a chamber to work effectively, in the manner in which Tony Blauer and others teach…

You replied…

There are many ways to shut your opponent down, and there are many legitimate ways to generate energy in a lethal force encounter. While I'm a big fan of Sequential Summation of Movement, I would never consider restricting myself to just that method of delivering force.

And here I will use your words “That's a bold and highly limiting statement, Bill. I couldn't disagree more.”

Because you misunderstand….that one way of delivering force should be at the top of our delivery ‘stack’ as it seems to work itself in all mechanics of force delivery we may have to trigger in the chaos of combat, and it might just be what saves our ass.

Even an eye pluck should be launched as an arrow from a bow…because you will not have the luxury to pluck at leisure when you are overcome by momentum and you must strike from unbalanced positions not able to impact on the intended target which has now shifted and you will find it landing on another _ not really susceptible to the ‘pointy thingy’ Bill…in the manner you intended to deliver it.

At his seminar in Gary’s dojo, Tony Blauer taught us

"closest weapon to closest target" and _

"Lead with speed--devour with power"

Closest Weapon, Closest Target (CWCT).

[Van Canna]

Why? More often than not the first target is one of opportunity, and primary target acquisition for follow through.
But that first contact is critical to your survival.

Real fights come in many, many flavors… Not all attackers go "all out." In fact I see very few of these.

Yeah well, then you haven’t seen enough my friend, or you might have seen the school-yard fights …my experience is a bit different including seeing a man knifed to death. In the Southern part of Italy where I am from ...many fights are executions.

And with my job, the investigations of serious fights in clubs and bars that included shootings and extreme beatings, such as the one I mentioned in a local establishment where some bikers who were shut off at the bar, promised to ‘be back’ and back they came with baseball bats attacking patrons at random with their families at their tables, killing one father of three kids.

Well, maybe we do have a different take on violence.

[Van Canna]

.

And for what it's worth... When facing a weapon, distance most definitely is your friend. You either want to have a lot of distance, or be on top of them. The in-between part doesn't work so well.

Here we agree. Problem is in many cases you don’t see or even feel the weapon until the fight is over.

And if you do see it…the only distance you want …is the run away distance…the walk away distance…not the dueling distance in a Kamae position.

Why? Because when you talk about position and distance…..it is the in between part …. where the kumites are programmed.

[Van Canna]

Kumites are not at fault for any of this…they are fun to do, and great in many ways, including dojo ‘socials’…

You did say they only count 5% in the overall scheme of our training and Dan testing...did I read you correct?

What's the bunkai worth in a test and why?

Now answer this truthfully...what is the true training ratio of Kumite vs bunkai in any of our dojos?

[f.Channell]

I also prefer Bunkai to Kumite but it also is of course, "a cooperative drill".
The problem with Bunkai is all the "Pomp and Circumstance" of it.
With all the repeating-bowing-demonstrating ad nauseum. Not to mention crazy apps like the "love handle lift" *TM. applied for
Mass attack is the exception to this of course. If your attackers are orderly and attack correctly on cue.
I prefer to train simpler Bunkai, in more of a kumite format, where the kata techniques can be fully explored.
And of course all the Kata should be Bunkai'ed.

I like to take 1-2 kata applications and explore them at different speeds and applications etc...
And always applying the K.I.S.S. rule (keep it simple stupid)

F.