Disturbing law proposed in Afghanastan

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Shana Moore
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Post by Shana Moore »

Bill gets to the heart of my point, it's all about communication, and clearly from the examples given by Vann...there wasn't adequate communication and interplay in any of those situations. The sex (or lack of) is a symptom of the problem, not THE problem in those quoted relationships. And fellas, just remember that your examples fit many types of relationships, for both genders...goose/gander and all that. :wink:

NOW
....back to the OP. It looks like we're all in agreement that this law is untenable from a western viewpoint. From the articles, it's equally so for some members of the Afghan government. So why is this still being discussed?

fundamentalism and political favours.....ack
save me :roll:
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill Glasheen wrote:Buried in all of this is "the relationship." If it is working, things often go well on the intimacy front. If it isn't, lots of things can go wrong.

Actually I've been in relationships where the intimacy was great but other things weren't working. Talk about a difficult thing to break away from... There are so many interwoven layers to the male-female thing.

- Bill
That is correct, the reason why these are really 'impossible discussions' leading to nowhere.

Yet, these are forums discussions, and as such they develop a life of their own...the natural order of things...

It reminds me of all the BS surrounding the controversies of what works and what doesn't in a real fight by the 'whole mighty' TMA practitoners who got their heads bashed in at UFC fights...and they weren't even real fights. :)
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

But then there is this that is too commonly avoided in discussions
Over the past two decades I have worked as a psychologist, life coach and sex expert, and I have found that Emily’s attitude is all too common.

And such views don’t bode well for the success of relationships. With increasing frequency, women in their twenties, thirties and forties take a pragmatic, postfeminist view that sex is something over which they have no need to negotiate.

In the bedroom, there is no compromise. If a man has a higher sex drive than a woman, then he can sort himself out.

If he wants to try something new and she can’t be bothered, tough luck to him.
Van
cxt
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Post by cxt »

Seriously not trying to be insensative.....and of course there are a host of issues and situations and circumstances here...but as Richard Belzeer once quipped.....(my paraphrase) "what is the point of "forsaking all others" if your needs are not going to be met at home....isnt that at least part of why people get married in the first place? Isn't that why you agree to "forsake all others in the first place?"

That being said...nobody should be required to perform....married or not.
Forget #6, you are now serving nonsense.

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chef
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Post by chef »

So, what happens to the woman or man if the spouse has illness that leaves the impotent/unable or accident renders them partially paralyzed?

Do you go elsewhere? Is marriage based on great sex or any sex? What happened to 'for better or worse'?

If sex stops, does the relationship? There is more to love and a relationship than just the sex.

Vicki
"Cry in the dojo, laugh in the battlefield"
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

You bring up very good points, Vicky…but I see them as apples and oranges.

The poor wife with sickness, disease etc._ is not ‘able’ to perform, she remains still a very loving woman _ as opposed to the wife who ‘will not’ perform by choice for some personal reason, using sex as a weapon_ let us listen to this psychologist
Over the past two decades I have worked as a psychologist, life coach and sex expert , and I have found that Emily’s attitude is all too common.

And such views don’t bode well for the success of relationships. With increasing frequency, women in their twenties, thirties and forties take a pragmatic, postfeminist view that sex is something over which they have no need to negotiate.
This is what causes many marriages to dissolve.

It has all to do as to the why sex stops in the relationship.

According to Catholic religion, it is a sin for the wife to deny her husband _ last I knew.

And as to what remedies are taken in all cases...it is entirely between man and wife.
Van
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

http://www.catholic.org/printer_friendl ... ured+Today

Just a snippet
JPII taught very clearly on the “gift of self” and when a woman understands that gift of self has many dimensions, she will also see that one of those dimensions is the physical way in which she can give herself to her husband.

A husband, then, also has obligations as the “receiver” of this gift.

Jewish law teaches that a man who pleases his wife is doing a mitzvah – a good deed.

This teaching is many thousands of years old and clearly based upon the understanding that God created the martial union for the pleasure of both husband and wife but also in the ways in which it elevates them as pro-creators with God.

The rules and regulations of sexual intimacy between a Jewish husband and wife are many and are meant for their mutual benefit.

Of those laws there are specific ones in regards to what is not acceptable. This includes exploitation, rape, incest, coercion, or subjugation of another person.

Sex within a marriage is considered sacred. Jewish teaching says that it is a sin not to enjoy sexual intimacy within marriage.
Van
AAAhmed46
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Saw interview on south asian news.

Basically, it was pinned on a bigger law, many, particularly the woman who voted in favor of it had no idea of the details.


But it's like many said before, the taliban started out with good intentions, then turned into an institution to enforce pashtu power.

Lets hope the new government doesn't go down the same path.
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Post by AAAhmed46 »

Jason Rees wrote:This is nothing new. It's a part of an attempt to insert Islamic law into the code of Afghanistan. This is also the plight of millions of Muslim women, law or no law.

I think Van is creating a useful contrast to modern sexual tyranny, that of denying sex to married men. Two sides of the same coin, both arguably codified in their respective parts of the world.
More an economic, infrastructural problem then an ethnic or religious one.


My dad works specifically with abused muslim woman.

Basically, beating your wife isn't something viewed as something acceptable, even in muslim countries.

As someone who is south asian and been around in the south asian community, hindu's, sikh have lots of issues pertaining to womans rights. Just not in the forefront of the news, so it isn't as well known.

It just happens more often because they have less places to run to, not nearly as much institutional help as in the western word. Husbands will beat their wives because they simply can get away with it because it's ignored. Oh you'll have your oddball quoting the quran out of context, but it's no different from CHris Brown and Rihanna.

Key is more institutions that cater to abused woman.
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Jason Rees
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Post by Jason Rees »

Basically, beating your wife isn't something viewed as something acceptable, even in muslim countries.
But in Muslim countries, nobody is going to intervene. No matter how many 'institutions' you create. Nobody is going to interfere in the affairs of another household (unless they're gay. Yes, I said the G-word. Try real oppression sometime, victocrats).
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Chris McKaskell
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Politics implicated:

Post by Chris McKaskell »

From the CBC website...
Controversial women's law to be reviewed: Karzai
Last Updated: Saturday, April 4, 2009 | 9:25 AM ET Comments162Recommend49CBC News
Afghan President Hamid Karzai says a new law that critics say would severely undermine women's rights will be studied and may be sent back to parliament.

The law makes it illegal for Shia Muslim women in the country to refuse to have sex with their husbands and restricts their rights outside the home as well.

Media reports Friday said the law contains articles that said women cannot leave the house or seek education without their husbands' permission.

Karzai told reporters in Kabul on Saturday he has told the Justice Ministry to review the law, and if anything in it contravenes the country's constitution or Islamic sharia law, "measures will be taken."

"The minister of justice will study the whole law, every item of it, very very carefully. If there is anything that is of concern to us, then we will definitely take action, in consultation with our ulemma (council of religious scholars) and send it back to the parliament."

Karzai also said the law may have been misinterpreted because of poor translation.

Canada has 'significant concerns' over new law
NATO's outgoing secretary general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, responded to news that the law had been passed by saying it "fundamentally violates women's rights and human rights."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper said he raised Canada's "significant concerns" at the NATO summit over the rights of women in Afghanistan.

"I'm pleased to see that President Karzai is submitting this law to further review," he told reporters as the summit ended.

"That said, let me be very clear on this ... there is going to remain enormous pressure on the government of Afghanistan on this question. This goes fundamentally, directly, to the heart of the reasons for allied engagement."

U.S. President Barack Obama — also speaking after the summit wrapped up in Strasbourg, France —called the new law "abhorrent." He said the legislation came up in conversations among the military allies, adding that NATO's closing statement specifically says human rights should be respected.

The legislation, passed in February, is intended to regulate family life inside Afghanistan's Shia community, but the United Nations Development Fund for Women said it "legalizes the rape of a wife by her husband."

Critics say the Afghan government approved it in a hurry to win support in the Aug. 20 election from ethnic Hazaras — a Shia Muslim minority that constitutes a crucial block of swing voters.
Chris
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Jason Rees
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Post by Jason Rees »

AAAhmed46 wrote: More an economic, infrastructural problem then an ethnic or religious one..
Not religious at all... (sic) It's all the same.
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chernon
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Perhaps the women have a plan...

Post by chernon »

This reminds me of the story of Lysistrata, who is the heroine in a very old Greek play. In a ploy to end the seemingly neverending conflict between Sparta and Athens, Lysistrata convinces the women of both communities (who are sick of their husbands and boys being involved in war and coming home injured and dead) to deny their spouses.

At first,it makes things worse, with anger and outbursts to try to convince or force the women to comply. Ultimately, however, the solidarity of the women reigns supreme. The frustrated men ultimately agree to sit with their enemies and devise a solution to end the conflict, so that their personal needs are ultimately met.

In the end, women and men both have obtained what they desired.

Interesting to consider, isn't it?
Chris McKaskell
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Post by Chris McKaskell »

Chernon, your comparason may not be far off...

I've been listening to the ongoing commentary on CBC radio and one of the analysts was suggesting that one way for women to move ahead was to actually get something on paper.

Her reasoning was that currently they live by tradition and unspoken law.

If the law is written down and enacted it becomes something that can be tested and adjusted and enforced by legal means.

It takes time to work these things out -- in Canada women didn't receive equal rights until very recently.

The clash of cultures plays a role too. It'll be tough to convince the public here that it's a worthy cause when, for all appearances, their moves forward pale in comparason to our expectations. Ain't gonna fly as far as I can see.

And it's tough to fight a law if you're kept illiterate and probably pregnant. Which is why it is incumbant on us to take action.
Chris
Gene DeMambro
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Post by Gene DeMambro »

This law is Exhibit A as to why we should never try to make religious law our civil law.
According to Catholic religion, it is a sin for the wife to deny her husband _ last I knew
It depends...
BY marriage a man and woman grant to one another certain rights
over their bodies for the begetting of children, the increasing
of love, the healthy ordering of passion. The fulfilment of this
concession is a matter of justice, its denial an injustice,
though a couple who are still newly in love may smile at such
terms. Justice, however, is a living virtue and not confined to
cold legal forms.

The principle is this: whenever either the husband or the wife
seriously and reasonably asks for the marriage due the other is
bound to render it. Reasonably asks: no one in marriage engages
to become a convenience for another's passion; neither must force
their every wish on the other; they are equal and, particularly
as regards the marriage act, have the same rights. It is most
desirable that the action should be mutual. This will not be too
difficult if the two love one another in a human way and are
ready to be considerate and make sacrifices, if each tries to
serve the other, and if it is realized that for their happiness
together the act should be the comfort and content of both.

There are exceptions to the obligation of rendering the marriage
due. A married person is not strictly bound to grant it if the
other has been unfaithful to the extent of adultery. Normal
relations are only re-established by the generous forgiveness of
the injured party. There is no obligation if there is a danger of
the infection of disease. Or if the request is unreasonable, if
it be under conditions that are genuinely harmful and
distressing, then it may be refused. This particularly affects
the woman; she has not promised to be the man's slave, but the
sharer of his human life, of his control as well as of his ease.
It is commonly held that a woman to whom pregnancy would be fatal
or highly dangerous is not bound to render the due; the request
for it would be unreasonable. Finally, there is no obligation of
granting it, rather the reverse, if it is going to be abused by
the sin of onanism.

There is no obligation of asking for the due except when harm
would be done by abstinence, a weakening of love, a risk of
impurity. In this connection, husband and wife will learn to
interpret and anticipate the wishes of each other.

By mutual consent married couples may abstain from intercourse
either for a time or for ever, not as evading the obligations of
their state, but as an offering and sacrifice to God. They must
not deny the existence of the right, but may forgo the exercise
of it."
There is a reason why those wedding vows are now the "old" wedding vows.

Cheers,
Gene
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