Otsu,
I too ,would like to welcome you to the forums and say thank-you for sharing your opinions and experience. There are few things more dispicable(sp?) than rape and I commend you for following through and prosicuting. Many would not put themselves through a second traumatic situation ,as I'm sure it was,to bring the rapist to trial.
Please keep posting on whatever you feel is relevent to this forum. We needed some new female prespective.
Lori M-D
She deserved it
Moderator: Available
-
lori macleod-doyle
- Posts: 232
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: lr.sackville n.s. canada
She deserved it
Otsu...I welcome you too....hope for lots more participation from you...
I have just one comment...the attacker was a black belt...no...the attacker "wore" a black belt - he doesn't deserve to be one.
Keep posting
I have just one comment...the attacker was a black belt...no...the attacker "wore" a black belt - he doesn't deserve to be one.
Keep posting
She deserved it
An older thread related to the "date rape drug" topic. Some old forum regulars had some great input as well as a poignant post from one woman who had direct experience. Some of the newcomers might appreciate a look. Never any clear answers to some of the more difficult topics - but one point seems clear - generalizations and assumptions are dangerous. Every story has different perspectives - this forum will remain a safe place to explore those perspectives - debate on issues encouraged.
-
Stryke
She deserved it
provoking thread , very emotional subject , if i may ask for a litle tolerance id like to add a few feelings .
Ive not ben raped myself so i cant comment on it , but someone very close to me was , it was a difficult time , id like to suggest that if someone ever suggests that a women deserved it , or encourages it you send them to see me , explain to them that im still hurt by it , and that anyone expressing such thoughts deserves my retaliation in fact there encouraging it , hopefully logic will appeal to some men where commen sense does`nt
sorry for the unconstructive rant , some times its better just to purge
Ive not ben raped myself so i cant comment on it , but someone very close to me was , it was a difficult time , id like to suggest that if someone ever suggests that a women deserved it , or encourages it you send them to see me , explain to them that im still hurt by it , and that anyone expressing such thoughts deserves my retaliation in fact there encouraging it , hopefully logic will appeal to some men where commen sense does`nt
sorry for the unconstructive rant , some times its better just to purge
She deserved it
Tony,
As a friend -- really -- I think the metaphor of "water under (your) bridge" should be applied. You have a view. But others will not no matter how you describe it. Let it go.
Move on with your training, in the fullest sense of training = living.
david
As a friend -- really -- I think the metaphor of "water under (your) bridge" should be applied. You have a view. But others will not no matter how you describe it. Let it go.
Move on with your training, in the fullest sense of training = living.
david
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
She deserved it
Tony-san,
Your post seemed more appropriate for an off-line discussion. Please email me at dmsdc@yahoo.com if you have any questions. Also, this forum was hacked serveral months ago and a certain percentage of posts were deleted along with some threads.
Thanks,
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 01, 2002).]
Your post seemed more appropriate for an off-line discussion. Please email me at dmsdc@yahoo.com if you have any questions. Also, this forum was hacked serveral months ago and a certain percentage of posts were deleted along with some threads.
Thanks,
Dana
[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 01, 2002).]
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
She deserved it
No worries.
I can get my dander up too sometimes. You offer many wonderful insights and you hold people to their statement.s
keep posting.
Dana
I can get my dander up too sometimes. You offer many wonderful insights and you hold people to their statement.s
keep posting.
Dana
She deserved it
Shelly-sama,
Good points, but I have a few quibbles with some of it, primarily as a therapist and secondarily as a martial artist. COmments interspersed with ** to note where it's me speaking.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shelly King:
Well, I’ve been lurking on this one and “debating” this topic privately with Tony-san…but since he is insisting I remove myself from the shadows, I guess I will respond.
**Glad you did - this is a wonderful forum - the more the merrier!
I was hoping that I would be able to find a previous post of mine where I expressed my concern over the use of the word “victim” but was unable to locate it in the archives. Being a victim is a conscience choice made by the individual. That does not mean that someone choices to be the recipient of a violent or abusive act. It simply means that an individual makes a decision as to how they will live their lives.
**Here's my first point of contention. Many people are conditioned through life experiences to be a victim - they simply do not know any other way to behave. Even abused spouses often have the abuse copme to them in a gradual manner, the abuse escalating in long, slow steps and the conditioning into victim attitude being entirely outside conscious awareness. Having been one of the few males to experience being an abused spouse (with court records to prove it), I can personally attest to the fact that such a situation can occur so slowly that it is not at all in the awareness of the victim.
It is not necessary to be the recipient of an attack/abuse to become a victim, just as every recipient of an attack/abuse is not a victim. Now, here is where Tony and I agree, there are some people who are happy being miserable and yes these people are victims by their own choice and you really can’t do anything for them. However I agree with Lori, generalizations are dangerous and risky.
Now for where Tony and I began to diverge from a friendly discussion to a heated disagreement is over the use of the word “fault”. In the scenario I posed to Tony, he was able to find several reasons why what happened was the fault of the recipient and could have been avoided. In the process, he allowed himself to make certain assumptions about morals, ethics, and life style without any evidence other than what I stated, which I might add included nothing to indicate that his assumptions were valid.
**Presuppositions in cases of abuse are very dangerous things to make. A person in a repetitive abuse situation (such as long-term spousal abuse) has an entirely different set of emotional anchors to their abuser. These anchors are often used by the abuser to make his or her victim more dependent on them as sole provider for emotional and financial as well as physical needs fulfillment. This fostering of a dependent mind state is used not only by abusers, but by religious cults in the same manner.
If there is a MVP award for Monday morning quarterback…our friend Tony deserves it
. So where does this leave us…could it be denial. Guess what guys, we can train the full length of the force continium spectrum from empty hand to edged weapons to guns. We can train with the mindset and conditioning that we strive for. We can spend every available moment reading all the available literature and attend every available seminar. We can look over our shoulder and live our lives in a state of vigilence, always aware and prepared. But guess what, we are only human. We cannot be 100% prepared 100% of the time. There is always someone out there who’s bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, and better prepared than us.
**BRAVA!!!!!!!!!! "There is no defense against competence."- R. L. Asprin
We can establish a non-prey attitude to dissuade those criminals not looking for a fight but in turn entice those criminals looking for a challenge. The honest truth is that the only thing we are really doing is improving our odds, we are not guaranteeing victory.
I don’t think I know a single woman who believes the law is going to protect them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Brilliant post! Only those small quibbles, but, they are significant in how a victim mentality is achieved and may hold the key to how to help a student who is exhibiting those traits to overcome their handicap. And I DO view dependence/abuse victims as people with a disability.
Often persons in abuse situations absolutely refuse to see the situation for what it is - primarily BECAUSE of the dependence that has been fostered and forced upon them.
That dependence amounts to a set of emotional "blinders" that only allows the victim to "see" (as in comprehend the world) from the point of view dictated by his or her abuser.
It is this control of the perceptions of the victim that is the greatest hurdle to overcome for the abuse victim, IMPO.
Thank you, again for a brilliant post.
My apologies to all if I have rambled on too long.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Good points, but I have a few quibbles with some of it, primarily as a therapist and secondarily as a martial artist. COmments interspersed with ** to note where it's me speaking.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shelly King:
Well, I’ve been lurking on this one and “debating” this topic privately with Tony-san…but since he is insisting I remove myself from the shadows, I guess I will respond.
**Glad you did - this is a wonderful forum - the more the merrier!
I was hoping that I would be able to find a previous post of mine where I expressed my concern over the use of the word “victim” but was unable to locate it in the archives. Being a victim is a conscience choice made by the individual. That does not mean that someone choices to be the recipient of a violent or abusive act. It simply means that an individual makes a decision as to how they will live their lives.
**Here's my first point of contention. Many people are conditioned through life experiences to be a victim - they simply do not know any other way to behave. Even abused spouses often have the abuse copme to them in a gradual manner, the abuse escalating in long, slow steps and the conditioning into victim attitude being entirely outside conscious awareness. Having been one of the few males to experience being an abused spouse (with court records to prove it), I can personally attest to the fact that such a situation can occur so slowly that it is not at all in the awareness of the victim.
It is not necessary to be the recipient of an attack/abuse to become a victim, just as every recipient of an attack/abuse is not a victim. Now, here is where Tony and I agree, there are some people who are happy being miserable and yes these people are victims by their own choice and you really can’t do anything for them. However I agree with Lori, generalizations are dangerous and risky.
Now for where Tony and I began to diverge from a friendly discussion to a heated disagreement is over the use of the word “fault”. In the scenario I posed to Tony, he was able to find several reasons why what happened was the fault of the recipient and could have been avoided. In the process, he allowed himself to make certain assumptions about morals, ethics, and life style without any evidence other than what I stated, which I might add included nothing to indicate that his assumptions were valid.
**Presuppositions in cases of abuse are very dangerous things to make. A person in a repetitive abuse situation (such as long-term spousal abuse) has an entirely different set of emotional anchors to their abuser. These anchors are often used by the abuser to make his or her victim more dependent on them as sole provider for emotional and financial as well as physical needs fulfillment. This fostering of a dependent mind state is used not only by abusers, but by religious cults in the same manner.
If there is a MVP award for Monday morning quarterback…our friend Tony deserves it
. So where does this leave us…could it be denial. Guess what guys, we can train the full length of the force continium spectrum from empty hand to edged weapons to guns. We can train with the mindset and conditioning that we strive for. We can spend every available moment reading all the available literature and attend every available seminar. We can look over our shoulder and live our lives in a state of vigilence, always aware and prepared. But guess what, we are only human. We cannot be 100% prepared 100% of the time. There is always someone out there who’s bigger, stronger, faster, meaner, and better prepared than us. **BRAVA!!!!!!!!!! "There is no defense against competence."- R. L. Asprin
We can establish a non-prey attitude to dissuade those criminals not looking for a fight but in turn entice those criminals looking for a challenge. The honest truth is that the only thing we are really doing is improving our odds, we are not guaranteeing victory.
I don’t think I know a single woman who believes the law is going to protect them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Brilliant post! Only those small quibbles, but, they are significant in how a victim mentality is achieved and may hold the key to how to help a student who is exhibiting those traits to overcome their handicap. And I DO view dependence/abuse victims as people with a disability.
Often persons in abuse situations absolutely refuse to see the situation for what it is - primarily BECAUSE of the dependence that has been fostered and forced upon them.
That dependence amounts to a set of emotional "blinders" that only allows the victim to "see" (as in comprehend the world) from the point of view dictated by his or her abuser.
It is this control of the perceptions of the victim that is the greatest hurdle to overcome for the abuse victim, IMPO.
Thank you, again for a brilliant post.
My apologies to all if I have rambled on too long.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
She deserved it
"proponed the fact that abused or raped women often "ask for it." "
If what even the most innocent un-filtered search on the Internet
brings up is true, then let me say that if a woman really
WANTS to be abused or raped, there is a chat-room or
club or group or something devoted to that purpose.
I don't think anyone ever "deserves" or "asks for it", but I
do think that people can put themselves in bad situations. Even if,
for instance, you leave a wallet on the counter, it's still
wrong for someone to steal your money from it.
"tight clothes on a young nubile woman would probably be enough
to tempt a saint (I'm leaving priests out of this one)"
That's because the priests want the 15 year old BOYS.
"Many young teenagers don't even have a clue about their
own sexuality and what they wear having anything to do with it - "
I've been followed by GIRLS--teenage GIRLS. Following me
around the store, dark parking lot, etc., trying to talk to me.
It's weird. I almost did a back kick on the one in the
parking lot. There may be a little naivete with some of them,
but they still DON'T deserve to be raped. Good Lord!
"Anybody who studies the martial arts is doing so to become
more proficient at self preservation, although a good portion
of us will deny even this truth about ourselves!"
Nah, they do it for the pajamas, the pajamas I say!
"I still believe that under the heading of this thread we
should take pains to convey the message that the criminal
behavior is unacceptable."
But they all ready know it is not acceptable. That is why they
do it in dark places or with masks on, with weapons. They
know they are wrong, they just DON'T CARE. Their feelings
are more important that that of their targets.
"I cannot blame a woman that is playing mind games for an
assault perpetrated by the object of those games. Immaturity
isn't an excuse for violence."
I can. It may not be illegal, but I believe that if you lead
someone down the path to doing wrong, then you are responsible
for the results. Of course it's her fault if she is trying
to cause trouble. Think about the intention of her actions.
If what even the most innocent un-filtered search on the Internet
brings up is true, then let me say that if a woman really
WANTS to be abused or raped, there is a chat-room or
club or group or something devoted to that purpose.
I don't think anyone ever "deserves" or "asks for it", but I
do think that people can put themselves in bad situations. Even if,
for instance, you leave a wallet on the counter, it's still
wrong for someone to steal your money from it.
"tight clothes on a young nubile woman would probably be enough
to tempt a saint (I'm leaving priests out of this one)"
That's because the priests want the 15 year old BOYS.
"Many young teenagers don't even have a clue about their
own sexuality and what they wear having anything to do with it - "
I've been followed by GIRLS--teenage GIRLS. Following me
around the store, dark parking lot, etc., trying to talk to me.
It's weird. I almost did a back kick on the one in the
parking lot. There may be a little naivete with some of them,
but they still DON'T deserve to be raped. Good Lord!
"Anybody who studies the martial arts is doing so to become
more proficient at self preservation, although a good portion
of us will deny even this truth about ourselves!"
Nah, they do it for the pajamas, the pajamas I say!
"I still believe that under the heading of this thread we
should take pains to convey the message that the criminal
behavior is unacceptable."
But they all ready know it is not acceptable. That is why they
do it in dark places or with masks on, with weapons. They
know they are wrong, they just DON'T CARE. Their feelings
are more important that that of their targets.
"I cannot blame a woman that is playing mind games for an
assault perpetrated by the object of those games. Immaturity
isn't an excuse for violence."
I can. It may not be illegal, but I believe that if you lead
someone down the path to doing wrong, then you are responsible
for the results. Of course it's her fault if she is trying
to cause trouble. Think about the intention of her actions.
-
Tony-San
She deserved it
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
No worries.
I can get my dander up too sometimes. You offer many wonderful insights and you hold people to their statement.s
keep posting.
Dana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Dana, but for the most part, i'm not gonna waste my time contributing to this forum. I'll be reading though and if I see some bullschit, I'll call the author on it!
Tony
No worries.
I can get my dander up too sometimes. You offer many wonderful insights and you hold people to their statement.s
keep posting.
Dana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks Dana, but for the most part, i'm not gonna waste my time contributing to this forum. I'll be reading though and if I see some bullschit, I'll call the author on it!
Tony
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
She deserved it
Tony,
Please remember that when you do choose to contribute to this forum that this is a place for ideas, opinions, and concepts to be discussed. It is not a place for personal jabs, demeaning comments, or pejorative remarks.
Thanks,
Dana
Please remember that when you do choose to contribute to this forum that this is a place for ideas, opinions, and concepts to be discussed. It is not a place for personal jabs, demeaning comments, or pejorative remarks.
Thanks,
Dana
