Why women can't hit hard

[Van Canna]

As to weapons I think that you should be able to use them. This is one thing that I don't understand on these forums........ Everyone and his dog seems to have some sort of gun so you only need the karate to work until you can get your gun, or he gets his
Very different were I live, but then it would probably be a knife..........

I think that it is important to understand the “force continuum” concept as it relates to our individual perceptions of “self-defense” … the understanding and the embracing or the discarding of such concept goes to the mindset of the “defender” and his success or failure in a “self-defense” situation, even if the situation did not require a gun or any other weapon to prevail. This is much misunderstood.

Jorvik

If you just do karate as a physical exercise, fair enough ignore what I say it's irrelevant ....if you see it as self defense then you have my opinion

Again, I think it is important to define this “self defense” thing.

When any of us speaks of it, just exactly what do we envision? Self defense? What do we envision defending ourselves against? What “self defense” scenarios do we see in our mind’s eye?

So we hear this:

A gun? Me? Never carry one..Nope, don’t need one.

Question: So you are a super trained Uechi person [trained in Okinawa of all places] do you think you are able to defend yourself on the streets?

Answer: Yes, of course.

Okay, but defend yourself against what?

Answer: Duh!!!

[jorvik]

quote
"I think that it is important to understand the “force continuum” concept as it relates to our individual perceptions of “self-defense”
Van. I am not sure what you mean by the "force continuum" does this mean that things gradually escalate push goes to shove goes to punch
There was a thread a little while ago were the discussion centered on action versus reaction.....that if you were always reacting to something, such as a punch...say by blocking, then you would be naturally slower than your attacker, in effect by waiting for him to act you were giving yourself a massive disadvantage......wouldn't that be the case here? I mean if I had a gun and I wanted to end a confrontation, wouldn't it be a lot better to get it out and point it at my aggressor..than wait for him to do it to me? I know that this will not always be feasible.....but isn't it better to go for overkill?
The other point is how do traditional martial arts relate to our western societies.....do we keep them unchanged, like a historical document or do they become adapted and modified to fit in with the society they are introduced to......I mean you can't ignore guns.

[KerryM]

Ok, if someone had a gun pointed at me- I'd, well, probably be shot LOL, but I'd want or attempt to get the gun out of the way- away from my attacker, therefore- I'd be making the first move- to defend myself... If someone were going to try to punch me- yes I'd wait for the punch, and block- it because Uechi is self defense for me- I'm not gonna try to hit someone just because they "say" they are gonna hit me- if they try to- then I'll protect myself- if they keep trying, I'll hurt them.

I personaly believe in this- "defense-only" "ONLY" I'm NOT gonna attack first.

How would I know if there was the chance to avoid the whole thing if I assumed they were going to try to hurt me- and "went-for-it" unless of coarse it is a gun I'm up against- If I'm close enough- I'll do as I mentioned- if I'm not- I'm probably dead- unless I try a move from seichin- (5th kata right?)

I don't own a gun- won't because I have children. I carry a knife- a small one.

But it is more important to me, to "defend myself" using my chosen style, and sticking to my "code of ethics" persay- than to risk attacking someone- when it could even at the last minute- be avoided.

IMHO: If you are "able" to block a punch coming at you- what does it matter if you are a little slower- as long as you "block the punch" it doesn't get you-, doesn't have to miss by a mile- just miss- then they are close enough to use your elbow strikes- right?

meaning of self defense to me?: Being able to physically protect myself when being physically attacked: same verbally- and attempting to use all means possible "except-force" to avoid the situation- until it becomes clear to me that force is necessary. Uechi-ryu has awesome "blocking" techniques- and when used properly can also be considered a strike- If someone is attempting to punch you- and you forcefully "block" them- if they aren't a trained (maybe sometimes if they are) you might very well be able to knock them off balance- or even to the floor- with just the block- kill their arm- they'll be in too much pain to continue- with practice I hope to achieve that... though durring arm rubbing excersizes- I can knock off balance a few sanchin's myself ! LOL

just my thoughts- as I watch the conversation...

K

[Van Canna]

A gun stuck in your face??

Rich castanet wrote in a previous post

Those of you following my foray into the world of handguns probably read my last post. The instructor was 'reality based' and has been shot at and has shot an assailant. He tried to describe the feeling of looking at a gun pointed in your face and could only describe it as 'Pants Pissing Fear'.

Van sensei: I have never approached this level of terror. Do some people really 'lose it' so to speak, when confronted with a life and death situation?

David wrote:

Some people have it in them and some don't. Unfortunately, some have to find out in at that critical moment...

I won't name names. I know more than several people who have been shot at and shot back; stabbed at and stab back; clubbed at and club back. Some of these folks aren't "trained". I also know supposedly "trained" people who would, yes, "p---ed in their pants" when the sh-t hits the fan.

Can we train folks for the real thing? Yeah, some, maybe...

It has been said, but people continue to delude themselves, that self defense is one of the most demanding of social skills, with more to it than learning the handgun or martial arts! "

Self defense is an interrelated system of physical and mental activity that measures threatening actions with saving reactions! It begins with the recognition of the threat, and escalating up through various level of force response options to the most serious level of self defense -deadly force" { Spaulding}

Here you have your force continuum concept that very few people are psychologically whole and capable to implement!

The average person's mindset cannot match the mindset of the criminal that lacks care, guilt, or respect for life! Regardless of any training, martial or otherwise, the average person will find himself mentally unprepared when face to face with a weapon wielding punk; will have non existent tactics to deal with the situation; and in such desperate circumstances will find his self defense skills rapidly deteriorate regardless of level of training!

This is something that professional trainers of elite law enforcement teams have known forever!

Lethal weapons
Impact moves and throws
Less-than-lethal weapons
Control moves
Communication
Less Force Body movement and posture

When you encounter a situation, it's easy to apply the continuum to decide how to handle it. If you're dealing with your date's drunken brother, you don't want to hit him--even if he is a jerk. You'd start with non-verbal and verbal communication. If you need to physically stop him, control moves, like an aikido wristlock or jiu-jitsu arm bar, are perfect.

On the other hand, if you're in that dark alley, you might need to jump a few levels of the continuum.

Most martial arts practitioners are not trained, equipped or ready mentally and physically to implement the force continuum concept.

They don’t have the mindset or training to escalate from empty hands to weapons, and are not able to recognize the clues to “jump start” the continuum levels from a mental, physical, equipment, and legal viewpoints.
They rely on a deluded state of mind born of their imagined superiority in Dan rank and “real training” …

To fully understand the force continuum it must be periodically discussed and reviewed.

Practical exercises will help re-enforce the training and cause the reactions to become more appropriate instead of instinctual. In a crisis situation, fear and adrenalin have a way of accelerating the force continuum.

Practice and ongoing training exercises will ease the effects of stress and make the safe outcome more predictable.

Self-defense is more than just a scuffle with a face slapping punk that is seized upon for “bragging rights”!

[Van Canna]

Jorvik

There was a thread a little while ago were the discussion centered on action versus reaction.....that if you were always reacting to something, such as a punch...say by blocking, then you would be naturally slower than your attacker, in effect by waiting for him to act you were giving yourself a massive disadvantage.

True, but not readily understood. Trying to match block for punch while waiting for the attack, will mostly become your funeral.

Gun against gun is a very difficult subject, tactically and legally, and it has been covered before on my forum and the legal forum in great detail.

And it requires a specialized type of training that 99% of martial artists do not possess, like attendance to the Lethal Force Institute run by Mas Ayoob.

Mind setting to deal with violent, escalating encounters, is a specialized skill, that not all can internalize and make function, even with training.

There are sheep and sheepdogs.

[Dana Sheets]

Hmmm, I go away for a day and look - my forum has a party while I'm gone!!!

Great points are being made by all. Jorvik, please understand I wasn't trying to pick on you - I was aiming at the argument "only train the things that work".

Rory - good to hear from you - hope you're doing well. I've gotten several folks in my dojo to read that little book - it is a wonderful thing. If any of you who haven't gone didn't visit the link - go back in the thread - find the link, and go.

Train for what? -- this is the larger question that is also a very unique and personal question.

Combat to me means you're going in expecting to give and get violence. Which is what armies are trained for. Self-defense, by contrast, (to me) is a chain-reaction of situation, emotion, etc. that can end up in a combat situation, or not end up in a combat situation. The hard part is figuring that out before you're lying in a puddle of your own blood on the floor.

Now - a woman, like a man, may be apt to close their hands and make a fist in a life-or-death situation. They may not remember to palm heel or elbow - as effective as those techniques may be. So - I think that women who are interested in real self-defense (whatever your definition of that may be) should be trained to hit and hit well with a weapon their body may choose before their "training" kicks in.

In going back over the adrenal-stress training that I did - there were still several guys and one or two women that, despite the training and the warnings, threw closed hands at the padded attackers.

On another thread a while ago Bill Glasheen mentioned the randomness of response to threat - sometimes we freeze, sometimes we fight, sometimes we run. If we always did the same thing then a predator would have figured it out and we'd be extinct.

So sometimes a woman may slap, she may palm-heel, she may elbow, she may punch with a closed fist. Since none can predict exactly which skill will come out in a life-or-death situation, shouldn't we do women who train in marital arts the small favor of working with them until all the weapons they have are as effective as they can be?

[KerryM]

YEah! Dana! You go girl!

Hey- where is the dojo you are at? I'm in NH- is it close enough to drive to- like Rhode Island and or up- I'd really like to meet ya and say hi!

K-

[KerryM]

Post script- I've had a gun to my head- by a psycho- close range (in a car)- barrel touching my temple- then he put it down, played with it for a few minutes- drove me around a parking lot- (little strip mall type thing) then threatened he'd be back- expecting the money my boyfriend apparently owed him. When he was done trying to threaten me to get the money for him- he let me out back at my store) I called the police- had a "sting" operation thing going on for the day he was to arrive- had one of those little panic button things the police give you- hit it- they come immediately- (this is all pre-Uechi) He never showed back up-

I sat calmly- (though shaking inside-terrified) spoke calmly back to him- explained I knew nothing of the money situation- held on tightly as he sped around the lot- (I knew he was trying to scare me into getting the money-I didin't believe he was owed-) so I appeared scared- but not hysterical. He let me go.

Had I had training- the gun was close enough that I could have elbowed up (or towards the back to try to get it into the back seat)- geting it away from my face- and elbowed him the ribs hopefully to get it away from him and run- (though the car had electirc locks so I couldn't jump out) this is all in speculation- but I was lucky.

Found out later he was a fugitive- wanted in three states I think- and they needed me to testify against him. (like a year or so later I think) I would have but something happened and they didn't need me after all. I was hesitant to anyway because he'd have known my address.

None of this is ebelished or exagerated. Had I had training- I wouldn't have gotten in the car in the first place- but until then he'd appeared friendly-(so at the time I was leary but not to worried) while in the car- I was terrified but knew I had to stay calm.

Gun that close to me- not sure even now if I could get it away from him- but I have a lot more confidense now- and believe that there were options/techniques I could have used to protect myself-or at least tried-(instead of sitting there trrying to stay calm) because had he actualy shot it- (for he made a big show of loading it-) I don't think I'd be here- I was numb inside I remember- feeling like it was a dream- but tried the door to jump out of the car- remembered every single thing about the whole thing to tell the officer that came- they had a great description of him after that- was the best I could do at the time....

How'd I do without ANY training?

Just curious-

Think I was in a bit of shock- but I made it through-

K-

[jorvik]

qoute
"Great points are being made by all. Jorvik, please understand I wasn't trying to pick on you - I was aiming at the argument "only train the things that work" .
Hi Dana,
I didn't think that you were , its very difficult to communicate on these forums , often times the things that we say are misinterpretted, or misunderstood. I talk with hindsight, on my own training, there are mistakes
that I wish that I had not made, so it is not intended as a criticism of anybody else or as a guidline, it is a reflection on my part and my own weaknesses. When we go to a karate school we go with our own preconceptions of what karate is, or should be...
I have seen short, thickly built men doing Taekwondo when they would be much better doing Goju or Judo, as dictated by their body type. That is really the thing that I am trying to get across.....and I admit, I was concerned that you may think me sexist because as I say the problems facing a woman are going to be different than for a man.......I suppose ultimately everything must be individualised to take account of the person involved .......but that we must start with a basic premise, and mine is learn the simple effective stuff first. there are people who are naturally gifted....who can throw high roundhouse kicks straight off and you can spend years trying to imitate them ( as I did ) but if I wanted to beat them in sparring I couldn't use roundouse kicks, I would have to rely on my own particular strengths, I would love to be thin and quickand supple but I'm not. I just had to learn to accept that.

[jorvik]

Kerry, as you say you should never have got in the car Prevention is better than cure......but, you can't always predict how you get into these situations....a business flight can turn into a 911. It kinda shows up the weaknesses of traditional martial arts doesn't it how many Kata Bunkai are done sitting in a car? how do you wrestle with just your upper body?..........as somebody who has suffered from a bad hip for years, you come to realise just how much power you generate from the lower body........but can't do that in a car either.
On the plus side you kept cool, and were ready to do something ......that does take a lot, well done for that.

PS a small concealed knife would have been useful.....maybe a "La Griffe"

[KerryM]

Hi-

Well, I was 18 and quite niave. I do carry a small knife now- a celtic style boot knife- though I carry it in my purse. He'd been reletively friendly up until then- so I really had no cause to expect that- and I was on a break at work- it was cold out- I figured he just wanted to visit. I was pretty niave/too trusting back then- I've learned a lot since then though. And always keep my knife handy LOL (pun intended

K-

[jorvik]

Hi Kerry
I did some pretty daft things myself when I was young ( a lot worse than that ).
P.S. don't call your knife a " small celtic bootknife".....especially not to a Scott, it's called a "sgian dubh"....
check out http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/shop/S ... es1961.htm
that's if it looks like one of these.....it's pronounced skee an doo

[KerryM]

Why does adding a pic have to be so difficult for me. Van? Mr Canna Sensei- how do you make it look so damn easy to put a little pic in here?

ANYWAY-

No J- The knife I carry wouldn't be found on ye site as I be of Irish decent Lad-dy- wouldn't be but a Scottish blade- but one of CELTIC design. LOL Do I feel a friendly rivalry coming on here? LOL

hope this stupid pic thing worked if not I'll try again- or you'll just have to take me word fer it. LOL

It's a little sterling silver thing. Actually called an Athame

K

Alright- I can't get the pic in here and I'm really ticked about it-

http://www.budkww.com/partsview.asp?act ... 4&catpos=2

HEY LOOKEE! I did it- Here is a pic of the knife I have- still don't think it's scottish but that's ok if it is LOL-

This is a really cool place for weapons! BUDKWW.com

(Looking at mine- it has a little more celtic knot work on it- but pretty much same thing-)

[jorvik]

Hi Kerry.
The only referance I could get on an "Athame" on the internet, was with regard to witchcraft and magic....as a ceremonial knife
( is there something that you 're not telling us )

[KerryM]

Nope- nothing I'm not telling

What did you think of the knife? Pretty little thing isn't it. I have several but that is the one I carry. Have this beautiful "Dragon" sword also- actual long sword- after watching all kinds of martial arts and fantasy movies etc- I think I'd like to learn how to actually "use" them! LOL

I don't know about anyone else- but when I watch a movie- and there is a fight scene- where they start doing martial art moves- whether it be women- or men- I find myself sitting forward- getting that excited feeling- watching intensly looking for Uechi moves! I love it! It seems to me that al-though most fight scenes seem to be predominately TWDo- they use the Uechi flying front kick a lot- or at least the movement without the "flying part- It's so exciting.... Love it!

smiling-

K