New Video

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:04 pm

Glenn

Forgot to mention that you pegged the book I was talking about. Checked it out in my library over the weekend. It's one of those old O'Hara publications, copywrite 1972.

Jim

Speaking of which... I'll look up the movement and get back with you. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote

In WC the Centerline is not the line that runs from the nose down through the 'center' of the body to the groin. I could not tell if this was the line you meant. In Uechi is the Centerline the same as in WC?

This is just a confusion of terms. I was talking about attacking on the center line of vulnerability of the opponent - an anatomical reference - as opposed to center line meaning the distance between the opponents that both fighters seek to occupy.

By the way, I forgot to mention that sanchin, a kata of templates, has a centerline posture at the very end - the "closed temple gate" position. Often when I am trying to get sloppy students to tighten up their form, I'll go back to this introductory form to show them how they are violating the principles of the core form. Many of the techniques I mentioned from seisan have this "closed gate" template as the underlying posture.

Jim and Van

One always hopes that your training methods will come in when you are least expecting to be attacked. You always hope that what you do in the safe confines of a school - even when you TRY to scare the bejesus out of someone in scenario training - will kick in when things really are on the line and you have been set up to be at your worst. That's why we train, right?

I don't know... The scientist in me is always skeptical, even when the teacher/builder/inventer/tinkerer wants things to be just so. I'm happy for Tony that he makes a good living doing good stuff. Maybe one day when they get this "cruel and unusual punishment" thing banished from our constitution, we can do like they did in the old days of warfare - use terrorists and other prisoners as guinea pigs in randomized, controlled trials just to see if it really works.

- Bill

P.S. KIDDING folks!

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
...even if there are times when sidestepping is difficult. In those instances you must program the "jam" and "twist"__
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another WC similarity here. We call it 'turning'.

Do you consider Uechi a trapping or energy manipulation art? Although the term trapping can be misleading, WC prefers contact over non-contact, e.g. the bodies touching, connected, in order to control the enemy and sense his intent. This being the case, if the attacker surprises us or not, and we are in contact then we are already at the range we want to be - so long as we maintain minimum distance. On the other hand if we are not in contact then we must close to make contact. If Uechi is the same in this respect then backing up would seem to not be consistent with the objective of being in contact.

Jim

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Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu

[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited April 22, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:23 pm

Van

BTW, I'm with you about backing up. It's something I prefer not to do, unless I am gaining a tactical advantage by doing so (baiting someone, changing technique selection by changing distance between the two, etc.). It is difficult to teach to a beginner though when they are still trying to figure out the difference between their right elbow and their left knee. Perhaps we should start off with more standing in natural stance exercises. I've been introducing a lot of that into training methods lately.

I believe it was Bobby Bethoney who used to preach that you were less likely to be hurt by moving in.

In any case, what are we waiting for, Van? Feeling creative? I always felt like our yakusoku kumite were like putting fat man's clothing on a skinny man's body (avoiding ethnic references). We should chat some time...

And to repeat a point made earlier, Bobby Bethoney was the first to show me the double reverse punch sequence on the above video (the original topic). He did so about 18 years ago. Good ideas are timeless. Bobby at his peak would be competitive in any venue.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:32 pm

Jim

Uechi ryu - as it is taught by many - is a bit of an enigma. The philosophy espouses infighting, and yet you see most people doing yakusoku (prearranged) kumite at extreme (in my mind, nonfunctional) distances. I get almost as worked up as Van when I see people doing this. It's as if people are afraid that something bad might happen to someone in a partner exercise.

The closest thing the style has to chi sao is the first part of kotekitae, where one does an arm rubbing exercise. It is an extremely simple thing compared to some of the very elaborate things done in WC or Taiji push hands. But the idea is there to be in close and to be in contact. The concept is just not developed in Okinawa; that's why I often go to WC to look at what I think the Chinese intended the style to be.

The one good part of the style - actually originating in Okinawa - is the addition of "tenshin" (shifting) foot movements that allow one to do exactly what Van is talking about. I love the stuff. But again, I've had to go to another style (aikido) to explore it more and develop it.

Just my opinions, FWTW.

- Bill

Shaolin · Post by **Shaolin** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 3:46 pm

Bill,

Just wondering if you are familiar with the concept of closing off somone's facing by controlling, or issuing energy above their elbow? The movements I learned in Sanchin seem to point to this.

Also, I would look at the moves in the kata as if done from contact references. Perhaps you already have.

Personally, I think using a bridging exercise would help students learn to feel more comfortable closing in and making contact as well as, helping them develop a better sense of the Centerline. Have you seen the non-classical Centerline punch drill that some WC people do? It involves two students from non-contact both shooting the Centerline with 'lead' punches - it often creates a contact, connected situation/reference. From this clash position one could train all kinds of goodies.

Jim

------------------
Moy Yat Ving Tsun
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:39 pm

Jim

I'm going to have to claim ignorance until I can see what you mean by your language. If it's in a book I can get at a bookstore or online, let me know. I'm game.

However, you really should look at our (Uechi ryu) arm rubbing exercise. It sounds a lot like what you are talking about.

- Bill

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:46 am

Right - but how many folks take the arm rubbing as a start to randori?

Souther Mantis has a variety of sticky training drills worth stealing that look lots like our arm rubbing - except they go through logical variations and extensions of the drill.

For example - do arm rubbing, and then switch so that one person is doing rubbing on the inside instead of on the outside. Then do arm rubbing with two arms instead of one. One person on the inside and the other on the outside, then switch.

Then add stepping.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:31 pm

Dana

Good point. This is an aspect of the style that I believe to be highly underdeveloped. On the other hand, lots of folks like things very simple. Some consider the intricate hand trapping and sticky hands of WC and FMA to be too intricate for practical application. I don't know... I always like overeducating myself, and then assuming I'll do the bottom 10% just fine in a pinch (a classic approach in education).

Jim

I had to dig out my copy of J. Yimm Lee. The technique sequence I am talking about is bong sao (elbow up block), followed by chum jiang (sinking elbow block), and then finally dia jeong (a kind of supinated palm strike). My bad... I was thinking it was a finger thrust, but actually the fingers are peeled down and one is trying to thrust with the palm (with palm facing the ceiling).

In any case, a Uechi practitioner does this and suddenly gets a deja vu. It is very much like an oft-repeated elbow/backfist sequence in the Uechi system, always done off the front leg. The Okinawans have us striking or thrusting with the elbow. That's fine but...I also really like the WC interpretation coming from basically the same gross motor movements. When someone graps your wrist and attempts to strike with the other hand, the elbow is free to block followed by dropping the elbow into their biceps tendon area and following with backfist (or supinated palm strike if you are more prone to the WC way). That elbow dropping movement after the elbow block makes the face fly right at you, and you can get the other hand involved in grabbing the extended arm and finishing the person off with the arm extension movement.

In our own dojo exercises, I have choreographed some partner bunkai of our hojoundo (beginning exercises) that apply this elbow movement as block concept. It's great stuff, and develops entirely different instincts off of a movement that really is our own.

So what was once thought to be elbow strike or elbow thrust can be elbow block, or elbow throw, or choke hold, or..., or...

- Bill