why do I see more style bashing?

[JimHawkins]

If we were in the pub I still would of said it`s a flawed presumption IMHO

I still find this compelling and confusing.

I made no presumption.. What presumption? I presumed what? That the Karate guy was going to use Karate?

I didn't say karate ***** because of this guy's performance—I did mention certain attributes I associate with the style and good performance in general.

On the other hand..

and my money would still be on the pure BJJ guy vs the pure karate stylist anyhow

So to clarify; If “karate dude from Japan” was going to win using his Karate it must IMO possess the key attributes I mentioned and had hoped to see that night--and that was my point..

[Stryke]

style vs style ... it`s just to human to make that possible .

It`s real karate even if it ***** , thats reality . Sometimes stylists just fail .


Jim forget it , it`s really a non issue to me . Was a simple comment and I`m not invested in it .

I dont think we`ll ever understand each other

[Jake Steinmann]

Search wing-chun on bullshido


and search any TMA on sherdog.

Therein lies my and Bill's point, though I think Bill made it more eloquently.

You're only looking at areas that are populated primarily by MMA practitioners. Not only that, but one of the forums you're looking at is specifically devoted to seeking out frauds and other such like, which is going to lead to a certain amount of negativity being thrown around.

Go dig through some TMA fora, and you'll find plenty of people saying plenty of bad things about Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, and so on.

[a.f.]

I don't think either myself or Adam was trying to accuse your stylists of anything. I'm sure karate guys are guilty of it too. It's just that when I peruse MT websites, half the time I get statements like the ones I quoted above. That's just what I've observed. Who knows, maybe I'm nuts, looking in the wrong places, etc.

[MikeK]

It's just that when I peruse MT websites, half the time I get statements like the ones I quoted above. That's just what I've observed.

Why does it matter what they say?

[a.f.]

I don't know. It just annoys me.

You're right, I shouldn't let it get to me. Whenever I hear such things, I confess that it really sets me off. It shouldn't, but it does. That's just me. Call me crazy.

[AAAhmed46]

Search wing-chun on bullshido


and search any TMA on sherdog.

Therein lies my and Bill's point, though I think Bill made it more eloquently.

You're only looking at areas that are populated primarily by MMA practitioners. Not only that, but one of the forums you're looking at is specifically devoted to seeking out frauds and other such like, which is going to lead to a certain amount of negativity being thrown around.

Go dig through some TMA fora, and you'll find plenty of people saying plenty of bad things about Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, and so on.

But go to a kung-fu site, talk about karate, maybe one or two guys will talk smack about it, others will be respectful.
Yeah they will bash MMA(I like MMA you know that) but thats because usually it's a defensive reaction.
Besides, we got people on Uechi-ryu.com alone that train in muay thai or BJJ or boxing. A MMA or Boxer or BJJ guy comes on here, he isnt flamed out.

What makes you think other forums aren't different?

On a muay thai website, talk about boxing, no real arguements.

But MENTION karate or kung-fu or kata in those sites in conjunction with effectiveness over at a muay thai website and they will JUMP at you, claiming muay thai's superiority.

It's like right-wing and left-wing politics.

It all started from the first UFC with BJJ nutriders talking about it's invincibility, not realizing that the gracies are a fighting family and then from there it all spewed, two opposite ends. The TMA and the "New age" martial artists.


Though in defence of 'new age'(though muay thai is ancient") is that, so far they have a better track record. LIke i said before, not because thier style is better, but because.....look at how they train.

But the fact is, and this blame lies in them claiming superiority of STYLE.

TMA can be blamed for believing thier kung-fu or karate is too deadly to be used on the ground or that they can poke eyes out while standing up and striking.
If you cant hit the guy in the face with your fist, what makes you think you can get his eyes?
I think bullshido is specific on this point, people there seem a little more understanding though are far more blunt. Still, there are people running around making stupid comments still, though not as bad as other sites......


But i will stand by my statement that the new age martial artists are more vocal. Hell in a sea or TMA one 'new age' fighter will be posting video after video after video or some guy shooting in on another guy in a gi or that Muay thai video from finland where a TKD guy is getting beat.
While a TMA in a sea of "New age'' martial artists will GENERALLY make post after post after post talking about 'my style is effective too!'

I can understand this however. An arrogant #### who can back up his talk is better then an arrogant #### who cant back it up.


Now that i think about it, i have more understanding to WHY this happens.
Alot of TMA should really look into what they do as to why they do it, and know if so and so drill gives them what they think, and yeah i think they should open up to modern training methods and such, and should ponder what is so new age about new age martial artists?

Alot of what is 'new' is actually old i think. Guess thats rick's views making cohesion with me.


All in all, i view BULLSHIDO in a WAY more positive light compared to other forums filled with competitive martial artists. Atleast they dwell into the reason WHY bullshit in martial arts is prevalent.

[a.f.]

I hear you Aaahmed. I agree.

I'm happy Semmy Schilt won K-1.

Maybe now people will take karate more seriously.

I hope..

[Jake Steinmann]

Enh.
I think you're looking at things that confirm your biases, and ignoring those things which don't. But it hardly matters.

I'm happy Semmy Schilt won K-1.

Maybe now people will take karate more seriously.

Or maybe more karateka will train like Semmy Schilt

[AAAhmed46]

Or maybe more karateka will train like Semmy Schilt

Yeah. If the martial arts fighting world showd anything it's this.






Though Jake, the martial artists you talk to, how old are they?

Im talking youth, bring up 'karate' to a guy 20-30 who isnt even a martial artist and he will regal you with stories of how he sat around doing nothing but sitting in horse stance doing punching.

Bring up MMA or muay thai and he will relate it to PRIDE or UFC or K1.

But tell me of your experienes in detail.

[a.f.]

And exactly which of my "biases" are you referring to, Jake?

[Dana Sheets]

hmmm...

Do you train for the masses? For mass approval?

The cream rises to the top - so the best practitioners will get the best press. The wacko's and charlatans make for good TV so they will also get press and yelling space on the net.

Good solid, consistent, relatively effective training just simply isn't that interesting to talk about and doesn't lead to fantastic flame wars where people get to use lots of superlatives and call each other names.

Try to get in mind that many, many posters on many of those sites are either new converts or young zealots. Common sense and self-control just doesn't really manifest too often in those two groups.

And they're just words. Sticks and stones and all that. Just typed words on the screen by people looking for some action, some notoriety, some attention - they're not usually looking to improve their training or yours, sometimes - but not most of the time.

Which is why you don't see as much style bashing here. Most posters here are (just a little ) older, most are working on self-improvement of their skills, their teaching, and their understanding.

Which is, to the "let's flame them all and see what happens crowd, a big ole boring place to be.

How nice to be a bit boring sometimes.

[Jake Steinmann]

Well said Dana.

A.F.

I'm not attacking you, and my comment was for both you and AAAhmed. You both seem to be seeking out websites, fora, etc. that show MMA/Muay Thai/BJJ folks bashing traditional styles, without looking to see if the same kind of bashing occurs on traditional fora in the other direction. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it seems like to me.

AAAhmed,

Right now, the only interaction with martial artists I have is on this forum, the people at Sityodtong, and a couple of friends who train in other systems. That's it. I used to interact with more, but the various politics, style-bashing, and the large egos involved in many places lead me to believe it wasn't worth the time.

Examples?

--Aikido students who dismiss ALL other martial arts as "that violent stuff".
--Kung Fu students who confidentaly assert that their techniques are far more "sophisticated" than all others, and that students of other arts couldn't possibly defend against them.
--TKD practitioners convinced that their kicks will defeat any opponent.
--A karate teacher who was so convinced of his superiourity that he not only believed his style had the best techniques, but that it had the best system for NAMING those techniques.

That's not counting the downright cult-like behavior I've seen and experienced in a variety of schools. But that's a different issue.

The common factor in general, from what I've seen, isn't style, it's age. The young and the recently converted tend to be over zealous about their training. The older and more experienced tend to be a little more open-minded.

Of course, there are some teachers who reinforce the style-bashing mindset, or even encourage it, and thus perpetuate those attitudes. Which is sad, but it happens.

Anyway--my entire point is that style-bashing happens in all arts, not just MMA/Muay Thai/BJJ. That's all.

[a.f.]

Jake,

I'm absolutely certain that TMA's bash other styles. That pisses me off too. But my only point is that it annoys me a bit that some arts have gotten worse reputations than others. That's all.

And, I agree. Well said Dana.

[AAAhmed46]

Jake,

I'm absolutely certain that TMA's bash other styles. That pisses me off too. But my only point is that it annoys me a bit that some arts have gotten worse reputations than others. That's all.

And, I agree. Well said Dana.

Yeah basically where i stand.


Sorry if i sound a bit snippy in my comments,i know you were not insulting me and im not insulting you.




Do alot of Aikido people really think other systems are too violent?

Ive never met somone who does Aikido.

Though i have seem kung-fu and TKD and karate bigotry, and your dead on.