Bill: I am forever impressed by your ability to turn up relevent published information. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea how the go pill stacks up to a strong cup of coffee, dehydration aside? It sounds to me as if there is less anxiety involved with the go pill.
Rich
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RACastanet
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Le Haggard
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Bill,
Thank you for the research documentation. It seems that these drugs in application have been better researched than is widely publicized. I don't like the use of drugs regardless, but I will agree that it appears to be necessary for the moment, until alternative methods are found.
It sounds as if the pilots in question, the original source of this thread, may not be able to use the drug use as an explanation. The "fog of war" is a much more likely reason for the tragedy.
Rich,
Whether you agree or not, dexedrine is a drug. Caffine is a drug. Giving either to the pilots is, by definition, drugging them.
Le'
Thank you for the research documentation. It seems that these drugs in application have been better researched than is widely publicized. I don't like the use of drugs regardless, but I will agree that it appears to be necessary for the moment, until alternative methods are found.
It sounds as if the pilots in question, the original source of this thread, may not be able to use the drug use as an explanation. The "fog of war" is a much more likely reason for the tragedy.
Rich,
Whether you agree or not, dexedrine is a drug. Caffine is a drug. Giving either to the pilots is, by definition, drugging them.
Le'
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RACastanet
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Question Le': For you to function in your job or whatever, do you consider yourself being drugged, or medicated? I consider the pilots to be receiving medication to overcome an occupational problem.
As far as a solution to 24 hour flights, in the next war we could just use ICBMs to flatten the objective instead of using surgical strikes to limit civilian casualties and infrastrucure damage. Could be a good option for North Korea and it would eliminate US and coalition friendly fire incidents and casualties due to accidents.
Another thought... since we are well established in Iraq, we could turn it into one huge military airbase. Flight times into and out of Iran and Syria would be about an hour. No more need for go pills. I like this solution.
And remember the great idea the Japanese had near the end of WW2. Just fly one way and find something to fly into. No need to worry about staying awake for th trip home. Saves fuel too!
Yes, I am being sarcastic now.
Rich
As far as a solution to 24 hour flights, in the next war we could just use ICBMs to flatten the objective instead of using surgical strikes to limit civilian casualties and infrastrucure damage. Could be a good option for North Korea and it would eliminate US and coalition friendly fire incidents and casualties due to accidents.
Another thought... since we are well established in Iraq, we could turn it into one huge military airbase. Flight times into and out of Iran and Syria would be about an hour. No more need for go pills. I like this solution.
And remember the great idea the Japanese had near the end of WW2. Just fly one way and find something to fly into. No need to worry about staying awake for th trip home. Saves fuel too!
Yes, I am being sarcastic now.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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RACastanet
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Question Le': For you to function in your job or whatever, do you consider yourself being drugged, or medicated? I consider the pilots to be receiving medication to overcome an occupational problem.
I take Zantac and Celebrex every day. I consider myself neither drugged or medicated, but instead very fortunate that these products exist to help overcome wear and tear and other aging problems.
As far as a solution to 24 hour flights, in the next war we could just use ICBMs to flatten the objective instead of using surgical strikes to limit civilian casualties and infrastrucure damage. Could be a good option for North Korea and it would eliminate US and coalition friendly fire incidents and casualties due to accidents.
Another thought... since we are well established in Iraq, we could turn it into one huge military airbase. Flight times into and out of Iran and Syria would be about an hour. No more need for go pills. I like this solution.
And remember the great idea the Japanese had near the end of WW2. Just fly one way and find something to fly into. No need to worry about staying awake for th trip home. Saves fuel too!
Yes, I am being sarcastic now.
Rich
I take Zantac and Celebrex every day. I consider myself neither drugged or medicated, but instead very fortunate that these products exist to help overcome wear and tear and other aging problems.
As far as a solution to 24 hour flights, in the next war we could just use ICBMs to flatten the objective instead of using surgical strikes to limit civilian casualties and infrastrucure damage. Could be a good option for North Korea and it would eliminate US and coalition friendly fire incidents and casualties due to accidents.
Another thought... since we are well established in Iraq, we could turn it into one huge military airbase. Flight times into and out of Iran and Syria would be about an hour. No more need for go pills. I like this solution.
And remember the great idea the Japanese had near the end of WW2. Just fly one way and find something to fly into. No need to worry about staying awake for th trip home. Saves fuel too!
Yes, I am being sarcastic now.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Tch, tch, tch...
OK, Rich, I have just a very little bit of research here. Need more looking up in some drug manuals to understand all the side effects. But we must remember that caffeine is cheaper, more readily available, and less addictive. (Note: Caffeine is indeed addictive and one can experience mild withdrawal symptoms when going "cold turkey.")
Just one study here (of two I found) from the French. They too have been looking at this issue, but using slow-release caffeine. Interesting... The results are positive but lukewarm (if you read between the lines).
It's difficult to compare study A to study B; better to test both drugs under the same conditions. These studies were meant to evaluate the use of caffeine, but not necessarily in consideration of the conditions experienced by fighter pilots.
OK, Rich, I have just a very little bit of research here. Need more looking up in some drug manuals to understand all the side effects. But we must remember that caffeine is cheaper, more readily available, and less addictive. (Note: Caffeine is indeed addictive and one can experience mild withdrawal symptoms when going "cold turkey.")
Just one study here (of two I found) from the French. They too have been looking at this issue, but using slow-release caffeine. Interesting... The results are positive but lukewarm (if you read between the lines).
It's difficult to compare study A to study B; better to test both drugs under the same conditions. These studies were meant to evaluate the use of caffeine, but not necessarily in consideration of the conditions experienced by fighter pilots.
- BillJ Sleep Res. 2001 Dec;10(4):265-76.
Slow release caffeine and prolonged (64-h) continuous wakefulness: effects on vigilance and cognitive performance.
Beaumont M, Batejat D, Pierard C, Coste O, Doireau P, Van Beers P, Chauffard F, Chassard D, Enslen M, Denis JB, Lagarde D.
Department of physiology, Institut de Medecine Aerospatiale du Service de Sante des Armees (IMASSA), Bretigny sur Orge Cedex, France. mbeaumont@imassa.fr
Some long work or shift work schedules necessitate an elevated and prolonged level of vigilance and performance but often result in sleep deprivation (SD), fatigue and sleepiness, which may impair efficiency. This study investigated the effects of a slow-release caffeine [(SRC) at the daily dose of 600 mg] on vigilance and cognitive performance during a 64 h continuous wakefulness period. Sixteen healthy males volunteered for this double-blind, randomised, placebo controlled, two-way crossover study. A total of 300-mg SRC or placebo (PBO) was given twice a day at 21:00 and 9:00 h during the SD period. Vigilance was objectively assessed with continuous electroencephalogram (EEG), the multiple sleep latency tests (MSLT) and wrist actigraphy. Cognitive functions (information processing and working memory), selective and divided attention were determined with computerised tests from the AGARD-NATO STRES Battery (Standardised Tests for Research with Environmental Stressors). Attention was also assessed with a symbol cancellation task and a Stroop's test; alertness was appreciated from visual analogue scales (VAS). Tests were performed at the hypo (02:00-04:00 h, 14:00-16:00 h) and hypervigilance (10:00-12:00 h, 22:00-00:00 h) periods during SD. Central temperature was continuously measured and safety of treatment was assessed from repeated clinical examinations. Compared with PBO, MSLT showed that SRC subjects were more vigilant from the onset (P=0.001) to the end of SD (P < 0.0001) whereas some cognitive functions were improved till the thirty third of SD but others were ameliorated through all the SD period and alertness was better from the thirteenth hour of SD, as shown by Stroop's test (P=0.048). We showed that 300-mg SRC given twice daily during a 64-h SD is able to antagonize the impairment produced on vigilance and cognitive functions.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 11903856 {PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE}
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Tue Jun 24, 2003 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Le Haggard
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All of the above. I am drugged/medicated with medications/drugs that are used to overcome biochemical imbalances the same way a diabetic is drugged with insulin. These products are significant to improving the quality and span of my life. In previous times in another society, these would perhaps have not been necessary. They are still drugs.RACastanet wrote: Question Le': For you to function in your job or whatever, do you consider yourself being drugged, or medicated? I consider the pilots to be receiving medication to overcome an occupational problem.
I take Zantac and Celebrex every day. I consider myself neither drugged or medicated, but instead very fortunate that these products exist to help overcome wear and tear and other aging problems.
So is the caffine I consume as a suppliment to self-medicate/self-dose that helps me maintain a calm response in individual situations rather than flying off the handle and ripping into someone for having a differing opinion, for example. It's particularly useful when stress and adrenaline overwhelm the prescribed drugs.
Alcohol, another drug, doesn't work well for me since the various imbalances and medical conditions that I have make it so that I am "not a cheep drunk" according to the Docs and can actually drink much more than the "norm" without the same effect. This, I suppose, is good since it keeps me from being tempted to use it as well. ADHD tends to create addictive personality types.
They are all still drugs.
I will ignore the sarcasm since that is a political debate that I doubt would be appropriate for this forum or productive in any sense of the word...Besides..I generally like you and I would rather not get into a verbal "fight" with people I like.
Le'
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jorvik
Hi Bill. 
"Friendly fire" is incompetence......which ever way you cut it,
from a humanist viewpoint it is abborant....from a militaristic viewpoint it is idiotic, you risk your resources
.......a trained pilot costing millions,a piece of equipment costing millions, the enmity and disrespect of your allies........face it, a fighter aircraft can take out a city....just look what you are fooling with.......
but to me this is not " real" friendly fire....there are far worse examples. The fighter plane that took out a British tank ......which was displaying all the agreed call signs the red flag the red smoke. The BBC jeep that was hit by a hail of bullets killing it's crew.......all, to me pale into insignificance......when I think of the cruise missile that hit the offices of " Al jazeerah".................I mean that was real incompetence..there were 4 buildings surrounding it, yet surprisingly it missed them ......but homed in ...on not just the building....but the exact floor.......amazing
I don't think.......now, I don't know how I fit in your political spectrum I don't regard myself as left wing ( particularly)........and to be totally honest, I don't regard myself as Anti American ( I really like Susan Sarronden and her hubby et al).....but that to me violates a basica human right...the right of free speech ( and it has been denied, by my government also).......what do the arabs think?.........God only knows?.....What do you think folks around the world think of America? when this sort of thing happens......the E.C. Russia, China?...........
Don't want to " rant" about this Bill......but sometimes you can be totally out of touch with the majority ( i.e. the rest of the world)..........I don't mean you personally
"Friendly fire" is incompetence......which ever way you cut it,
from a humanist viewpoint it is abborant....from a militaristic viewpoint it is idiotic, you risk your resources
.......a trained pilot costing millions,a piece of equipment costing millions, the enmity and disrespect of your allies........face it, a fighter aircraft can take out a city....just look what you are fooling with.......but to me this is not " real" friendly fire....there are far worse examples. The fighter plane that took out a British tank ......which was displaying all the agreed call signs the red flag the red smoke. The BBC jeep that was hit by a hail of bullets killing it's crew.......all, to me pale into insignificance......when I think of the cruise missile that hit the offices of " Al jazeerah".................I mean that was real incompetence..there were 4 buildings surrounding it, yet surprisingly it missed them ......but homed in ...on not just the building....but the exact floor.......amazing
I don't think.......now, I don't know how I fit in your political spectrum I don't regard myself as left wing ( particularly)........and to be totally honest, I don't regard myself as Anti American ( I really like Susan Sarronden and her hubby et al).....but that to me violates a basica human right...the right of free speech ( and it has been denied, by my government also).......what do the arabs think?.........God only knows?.....What do you think folks around the world think of America? when this sort of thing happens......the E.C. Russia, China?...........Don't want to " rant" about this Bill......but sometimes you can be totally out of touch with the majority ( i.e. the rest of the world)..........I don't mean you personally
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RACastanet
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Bill Glasheen
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jorvik
Perceptions count. Your points are well taken.
Truth be told, I personally am not ready to judge George W. and Tony Blair for their incursion into Iraq. We just don't know at this point whether or not it was warranted, whether or not we will make it a better place, whether or not it will stabilize the Middle East, whether or not we (the civilized world) will be more secure, and whether or not we have stabilized Middle East oil resources for world consumption. Anyone at this point who is willing to state things one way or another is - IMHO - blowing smoke from where the moon doesn't shine.
Well they say that time loves a hero
But only time will tell
If he`s real he`s a legend from heaven
If he ain`t he was sent here from hell
- Little Feat
As for the criticisms about other "friendly fire" incidents, well... I personally am glad that:
1) The rest of the world thinks we (the coalition) are SO GOOD that we can get every one of probably tens of thousands of missle and bomb attacks exactly where we wanted them to go, and
2) We (the coalition) must have political and moral standards beyond reproach when compared to other governments in the world - even and especially those that were profiting from Saddam's oil-for-food program (read oil-for-palaces - about 50 of which were built after the Gulf war).
I don't mind folks thinking that, and am glad we are so judged. I may or may not love my president, but I'll take the criticism. I'll also support those in my country who choose to express their displeasure with the events in 2003. It's time we heard it all. And then, it's time to learn what we can and move on.
- Bill
Perceptions count. Your points are well taken.
Truth be told, I personally am not ready to judge George W. and Tony Blair for their incursion into Iraq. We just don't know at this point whether or not it was warranted, whether or not we will make it a better place, whether or not it will stabilize the Middle East, whether or not we (the civilized world) will be more secure, and whether or not we have stabilized Middle East oil resources for world consumption. Anyone at this point who is willing to state things one way or another is - IMHO - blowing smoke from where the moon doesn't shine.
Well they say that time loves a hero
But only time will tell
If he`s real he`s a legend from heaven
If he ain`t he was sent here from hell
- Little Feat
As for the criticisms about other "friendly fire" incidents, well... I personally am glad that:
1) The rest of the world thinks we (the coalition) are SO GOOD that we can get every one of probably tens of thousands of missle and bomb attacks exactly where we wanted them to go, and
2) We (the coalition) must have political and moral standards beyond reproach when compared to other governments in the world - even and especially those that were profiting from Saddam's oil-for-food program (read oil-for-palaces - about 50 of which were built after the Gulf war).
I don't mind folks thinking that, and am glad we are so judged. I may or may not love my president, but I'll take the criticism. I'll also support those in my country who choose to express their displeasure with the events in 2003. It's time we heard it all. And then, it's time to learn what we can and move on.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Interesting...
Pilot in mistaken bombing may face court-martial
And in case anyone thinks the alleged "bad guy" pilot was a bumbling baboon, check out the following final paragraph in the article.
- Bill
Pilot in mistaken bombing may face court-martial
And in case anyone thinks the alleged "bad guy" pilot was a bumbling baboon, check out the following final paragraph in the article.
Even the very best make fatal blunders in combat.Schmidt had transferred to the National Guard in 2000 after a decorated career as a Navy pilot and an instructor at the Navy's "Top Gun" fighter pilot school.
- Bill
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jorvik
quote
" Truth be told, I personally am not ready to judge George W. and Tony Blair for their incursion into Iraq. We just don't know at this point whether or not it was warranted, whether or not we will make it a better place, whether or not it will stabilize the Middle East, whether or not we (the civilized world) will be more secure, and whether or not we have stabilized Middle East oil resources for world consumption. Anyone at this point who is willing to state things one way or another is - IMHO - blowing smoke from where the moon doesn't shine."
Hi Bill ....permit me to blow some smoke.
check out. http://www.counterpunch.org/oconnell03202003.html
quote
"Watch the White House and the media begin to increase the demonization of Iran. Pressure will be put on Tehran to submit to U.S. demands. If the leadership in Iran fails to comply with U.S. demands, then America will be "forced" to stand up to another threat to world peace"
then check out DEBKA
http://www.debka.com/
quote
"US Accumulates Evidence of Iran’s Nuclear Violations"
........ AWE GEE.....that old chestnut WMD"
but hey
capitalism aint all that bad...........I'm off to the betting shop to place a bet ( get good odds I reckon 
war with Iran.......and no WMD discovered as we go in to find them)
" Truth be told, I personally am not ready to judge George W. and Tony Blair for their incursion into Iraq. We just don't know at this point whether or not it was warranted, whether or not we will make it a better place, whether or not it will stabilize the Middle East, whether or not we (the civilized world) will be more secure, and whether or not we have stabilized Middle East oil resources for world consumption. Anyone at this point who is willing to state things one way or another is - IMHO - blowing smoke from where the moon doesn't shine."
Hi Bill
....permit me to blow some smoke.check out. http://www.counterpunch.org/oconnell03202003.html
quote
"Watch the White House and the media begin to increase the demonization of Iran. Pressure will be put on Tehran to submit to U.S. demands. If the leadership in Iran fails to comply with U.S. demands, then America will be "forced" to stand up to another threat to world peace"
then check out DEBKA
http://www.debka.com/
quote
"US Accumulates Evidence of Iran’s Nuclear Violations"
........
AWE GEE.....that old chestnut WMD"but hey
capitalism aint all that bad...........I'm off to the betting shop to place a bet ( get good odds I reckon war with Iran.......and no WMD discovered as we go in to find them)
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
