Big Dog Syndrome?

[Van Canna]

Well, yes and no, Rory.


Can a smaller, weaker, capable martial artist defeat a larger, stronger, not so skilled opponent? The answer: sometimes.

Many martial artists always seem to assume that the big person is just big and not trained, tough and mean as well.
Professional athletes, in particular, learn to use their size and mechanics to their advantage, in competition and in fights if they have to.

I have had these discussions for years with “black belts” who felt superior…but nobody was ever willing to “show me” how to neutralize a big football player/hockey player/basket ball player, even in a friendly match.

Seen it regularly - mainly in Judo Opens where you get technically excellent fighters who dominate their weight class are beaten by bigger guys who didn't even get a medal in their class.

One has to be a whole lot better than his attacker to be able to punch twice as fast so overcome mass, however _ size is a factor because you have to find a way to overcome it, and it is not that simple under the chemical cocktail where gross motor rules.

Professional athletes _ generally have more muscle mass, bigger stronger bones etc and can generally get the upper hand_ for all-out power they usually win. Also the pain tolerance seems to be less for them.


Size and mass can drastically be used against an opponent. A smaller person can be thrown into walls and other objects.

[Bruise* Lee]

There was one of the early UFC's - I think it was # 6 - that was titled David and Goliath, because they created the matches so there was a size disparity. Fry at 6'1" and around 200 LBS fought a 400 LB Kung Fu guy, Joe Meoreira (sp?) at 5'11" 200 LBS fought the guy they called Polar Bear who was over 300 LBS and 6'8" and who had already fought in several UFC's, one of Ken Shamrocks students at 180 LB or so fought Ferozzo (sp?) who was 275 or so etc.

About 2/3 of the time the smaller guy won. Of course many ended in grappling, but add in the eye gouging and biting that is illegal in the event but that works as well for either a big or little guy and you might see something similar in "real" life unarmed competitions.

[Bill Glasheen]

It was a nice vacation. Virginia Beach was rainy most of the weekend, but today was windy T-shirt weather with massive waves (for the east coast). And the company was fine.

Let's see now... Lots of questions and issues. Where to start.

Yes, Marcus, I meant what I said. No if, ands, or buts.

Look...I was in a University community teaching for 14 years. I had a couple of thousand kids from 18 to 26 go through training with me.

When it comes to athletes, I've gotta put basketball players near the bottom of the list of "natural" fighting ability. It seems that many of the traits that make someone good at basketball - combined with the years of very specialized training - makes someone less than a perfect candidate for fighting. Remember that most professional basketball players play in the aerobic zone, and fighting is largely an anaerobic activity. And other than fighting for position and rebound, their sport is mostly about leaping and about a soft, accurate touch.

Two of my students whom I trained to black belt and more (Mike and Gerald) were six foot seven. They studied at the same time. Gerald had played 4 years of varsity basketball for a small college (as center) before he started with me. While Gerald had a mean fighting streak deep down inside (inner stuff he was dealing with), I eventually learned that both Gerald and Mike were relatively easy puzzles for me to solve.

Mike actually was my designated kumite partner for several years of Goju Ryu training - both of us from white belt to nidan. Oh, and we did a lot of (gasp) prearranged kumite. I believe it was 19 kata, 16 bunkai, and about 10 yakusoku kumite. Our teacher was a Gojuka/Judoka/green beret and choreographed lots of hybrid kumite that mixed striking and grappling applications of classical kata. Anyhow... Four of us started together, and Dr. King designated Mike to me because I already was a Uechi Dan. I think he figured I was the only one who could handle Mike because of my experience. I was pissed at first (because it was an "awkward" match), but after a while grew really to like working with Mike. Over the years, I found more Achilles' Heels in him than he did in me. Then when I started working more with Gerald (because others were intimidated by him) I discovered the same weaknesses.

Oh and by the way, I saw Gerald and Mike in all frames of minds through the years... 'Nuff said.

There were only two basketball players that I coveted when teaching martial arts at U.Va. You probably wouldn't know them unless you really know U.Va. basketball. (Othell Wilson and Ricky Stokes) Both were lightning fast, muscular guards who I saw repeatedly slammed, and always got back up on their feet. And they had no fear. I just never managed to get their attention. But come to think of it, there was a similar athlete by the name of Maria Sophotasiou...

I've had the opportunity to teach and work with some football players as well. Only three I ever worked with were any good, and these three were scary good (not Uechika, BTW). You find more good fighters in football than in basketball because of the nature of the activity (anaerobic, explosive power, sprinting speed, ability to give or take a hit, agility of certain positions), but not as many really scary ones as you'd think. Linemen in particular can be pretty lousy fighters. Most of them are hopelessly slow and have terrible range of motion.

But...watch out for the "athletic" football players...

Anyone BTW remember Andre Tippett?



You want to dis his Uechi, Van? See what I mean? Uechika also come in all sizes and shapes.

And as for sizes and shapes, anyone remember the Gracies? These are not large men, and they have faced the biggest and the baddest from all walks.

As to Uechi training vs. fighting...

Lots of people talk theory and practice. I've seen a lot of good fighters trained a lot of different ways. So many different factors go in to what makes a good fighter.

I've played a few sports. And I've done Japanese Karate. And I've trained mostly Uechi. And I've done lots of classical Goju training with lots of bunkai and kumite. And a little of this, and a little of that...

Bruce Lee (who BTW was classically trained in Wing Chun...) used to talk about another person within him when talking about his street fighting ability. He would talk about this fighter in the third person in a Bush Sr. kind of way. This was his own unscientific way of talking about amygdale-level responses.

First strike? Block and strike? Kumite? Scenario training? I don't know... All I know is that I have struck a few people in my life "without my permission." I believe this is what Bruce is talking about. And this IMO is the only first strike capability that works. Think in most of these impossible situations described by many and you're dead. I guess you just pray your primal brain's head is screwed on right. I think you train the best you can, and after that...les jeux sont fait. You live to talk about it, or you don't. You start to see the right thing happening here and there with your "street" experiences (in not-so-pleasant situations). If you're lucky, you live to tweak your training and your education just a bit more here and there. And you pray some... You pray that you survive, and you pray that if you do act instictively, that it will be defensible. And you choose not to live your life in unreasonable fear.

Some love this rubber-meets-the-road schit. I think Rory loves it. It takes all kinds... I'd rather make love. So I guess a guy like Rory knows more where he is at any one point in time, and I just extrapolate a bit more...

Best sports to find a good prospect for martial arts? Hands down, gotta be wrestling. Gymnastics is up there, but you can get a great gymnast that has no ability to face another. They do great until their first sparring match... Raccoon eyes from that point on.

Believe it or not, I found good horse riders to be potentially great fighters. Sample size is small but...I think I'm right here. Something about being able to control a massive beast with a mind of its own, and at breakneck speeds, and with little fear. One I know of was one of the best female fighters I've seen (not my student). Another did the best kata I've seen (my student).

Sprinters have potential. I've seen a few good ones. Same with fast short distance swimmers.

I'd love to try some pole vaulters...and some Olympic weight lifters.

Not enough sample size for baseball but... My baseball helped me.

But this gets me back to my original statement. Great athletic ability alone doesn't make you a great fighter. I'll walk amongst the big boys any day. When you spend some time working with them and figure them out, you discover they wear fruit-o-the-looms just like the rest of us.

Sorry for the extended post.

- Bill

[f.Channell]

I trained with Andre for years Bill.
Anyone who doesn't like kumite should have done one with him.
It certainly changed the way I block.
A real nice guy also.
Andre did a lot of competition also.
F.

[Stryke]

Thanks for the reply Bill

But this gets me back to my original statement. Great athletic ability alone doesn't make you a great fighter. I'll walk amongst the big boys any day. When you spend some time working with them and figure them out, you discover they wear fruit-o-the-looms just like the rest of us.

I agree but I sure still think it`s a huge benifit , the athletes I`m thinking of are rugby players though , honestly havent trained with any basketball players that I know of , maybe Rugbys just got something to it , i know it`s the best sport in the world ....

And ive spent a lot of time working with em , we actually got a Rep Rugby Team to come cross train with us once , was a hell of a good experience facing those monsters , opened up a few eyes amoungst the ranks .

I`m not quick to be so certain about my ability to handle such agression and raw power that some athletes can muster , I dont think id fair nearly as well as against the average joe . but maybe he`d kick my ass too

[Bill Glasheen]

I forgot about Rugby...

Yes, my brother-in-law was a star Rugby player at U.Va. back in the early 1970s I believe. They called Rad "Baby Bull" because of his baby face. Rad chose one year to sign up for the intramural boxing tournament at U.Va. (before they banned the event). And yes, Rad won the heavyweight division.

When I worked in the cardiology lab, a cardiology fellow I worked with also was on the Rugby team. I'd loan him equipment Monday morning so he could suture a wound or punch a hole in a blackened toe nail. Mark was not big, but had a very different perspective of the concept of self preservation.

Rugby players play full contact without equipment. 'Nuff said.

- Bill

[Guest]

Oh, and we did a lot of ( gasp ) prearranged kumite.

Bill possibly if you had Tssst you would not be gasping from all the K work.

I was recruited by a few University B Ball teams, well okay, just one .I don't think that had a negative effect on my abilities to fight. But I agree most rakes are to clumsy to put a decent strike together. I'm a runt By BBall standards so I guess I can still get something together.

Bill I'm your man I use to pole vault. Former provincial champ...the vault is gymnastics and sprinting rolled into one event. I've always been a heritic however and did not rely on sprinting. While my competitors all used fourteen stride take offs to carry them to the bar, I used seven and relied on strength and technique to get me over the bar. It's kind of funny because I was always competing against bigger stronger dudes who had fourteen foot fiberglass poles. I vaulted with an eleven foot steel pole and beat them all. I guess they sucked worse than I did.

Guess I just understood the body mechanics of the vault better than the rest of them. Many paths up the mountain! I was a runt in the vault as well; most of my completion had 2 inches and fifty pounds on me.

A few years later I was offered a tryout with a professional lacrosse team. I might have sucked in the vault, but few forwards ever got past this little defense man for a free shot on the net. You left your ribs behind just for trying.

I guess I'm athletic by nature, and that's more than many can handle.

Throw big and strong into the equation and that’s more than most will ever want to experience.

I've always been a less than physical specimen, it's only in the past ten or fifteen years do I sense folks are intimidated by my presence, I became larger and stronger over the years.

Yeah I'm a fat old bloke but many are intimidated by my size and strength.

Today in the average dojo you’re told not to use your strength, to succeed with out it.

Good advice, but in the mean time when the schit hit's the fan what will I use...what ever works.

It's not fun to be the big meat in the dojo. Every time you succeed you’re told it's not skill it's strength.

Every time you fail your sensei will tell you I told you so!

In the mean time every peckerwood on the continent comes at you’re with strength and if you respond in kind...well you’re just the stupid big meat using muscle again.

And we wonder why we don't have big strong folks interested in playing with use. Hell Bill most sensei don’t allow them, they threaten the little folk.

Big folk are only allowed into the average dojo if they pretend to be whimps. Compliant with a capital C.

Personally, I like your welcoming approach. Athleticism or size should not be a barrier to training. Truth is we chase off most strong athletic types because we don't want them. They scare off the cash flow!

Personally I'm sick of the cheap shots big guys put up with in the average dojo. And I'm not a large person, but when the average person is smaller you get to be the brute. They feel justified in giving you the extra cheap shot.

Time this dumb brute started to play his part. I don't know any better I still see my self as this little skinny runt that started this path a few years back.

Any little meat going to town with me better be able to dance. If they can't I'll fuk em over! I've had enough of playing the role. Cheap shots will be responded to from this day forward. This big meat will decide what’s cheap and what’s not.

Why can't little skinny karate runts deal with big meat...because the meat is not allowed to be big meat. It's toned down so the student survives. Big strong folks are really not welcomed in many training circles.

We attempt to enhance many skills of the student population but the strong large guy is not a welcomed addition to many dojo's. If he's there he's a target to make skinny folk feel good he's rarely there to introduce reality.

If prey was consumed training might be more realistic.

[Van Canna]

Ø You want to dis his Uechi, Van?

Funny man, Bill. You are the one dissing the ball players. Bet you Andre would disagree with you 100% and probably ask you to “show him” you defeat some linebacker..

Ø So many different factors go in to what makes a good fighter.

Yep..One of them is called “street reality” _

I can introduce you to some people I know with no “fighting skills” in the traditional sense, who’d have the average Martial arts student or master for lunch any day of the week.

Talk to David Moy about this sometimes.

Ø Think in most of these impossible situations described by many and you're dead. I guess you just pray your primal brain's head is screwed on right. I think you train the best you can, and after that... les jeux sont fait . You live to talk about it, or you don't.<

That’s about the size of it. But when training, it is a good thing to train responsibly, and more important to teach responsibly, in accordance with the real world experience of many teachers, instead of with traditional lore.

Ø But this gets me back to my original statement. Great athletic ability alone doesn't make you a great fighter.<

It has nothing to do with being a “great fighter” you keep missing the point.

Someone with great size, reach, weight and strength, does not need much to put lesser mortals in a pine box. Working with them in a dojo under friendly “games” is not the same as finding one of them with “street intent” to put you in the gutter with a busted head.

[Stryke]

Comparing an American Rugby player to A NZ one is like comparing your nukes to our small arms ....

I cant beleive your athletes are so inferior to ours in a physical sense , I was under the impression your American football guys were quite tough despite the padding .

Hell Bob Sapp has made quite a name for himself with little MA experience , hes not exactly the greatest to enter the ring but I`m cofident hes lasted longer than many traditional stylists would ....

I still wouldnt want to fight him .

Size and strength count period . Maybe the exceptional MA is the exception , but I see it as negligent to propogate the myth that size and strentgh arent much to worry about to a MA .

some students might just get there ass kicked through false beleif .

anywya , your welcome to your opinion , and Ive clearly exspressed mine , I`ll move on

[Van Canna]

Size and strength count period . Maybe the exceptional MA is the exception , but I see it as negligent to propogate the myth that size and strentgh arent much to worry about to a MA .

That's just the point Stryke. It is irresponsible to lead people down primrose path with this talk about hulking athletes not being much of a threat, and prearranged kumites being the proper way to prepare one for street realities, and to diss all the modern experts who have made a study of thousands of real life attacks, and have experienced the concepts in police work etc.

This is what can lead people to false self-confidence blunders that will put them in a pine box.

[Bill Glasheen]

You argue best when you argue my point, Van.

I brought Andre up because he's one of those deluded Uechi guys. That is a familiar patch on that "traditional" gi, no? He did get "traditional" training, no?

I brought David Moy up as an example of someone who knows how to fight, and isn't the stereotypical hulking athlete.

Yes, size and strength help. As I said very early on in the post, these guys would be real dangerous if they knew how to use their bodies. Fortunately for us all, most of them don't. But I'll gladly take one as a student.

It's not delusional to tell folks to test their mettle against the big blokes in a controlled environment. Invite them in the dojo, and have some fun. Cheap shots aside, it's a good way to put it all to the test and learn for yourself. Teaching with and working with big guys is the way I've learned not to be intimidated by them. The more I work with them the better, and not every big person is equal. All thinks equal, size matters. But skill and intent trumps it. In case you didn't notice, I don't think Rory would make the football team. And yet I'll put my money on him most any day. Skill and attitude...



Nice Uechi move, BTW...

Put it ALL together, and you have one scary dude.

I live professionally in a multidimensional world. Each person brings a variety of assets to the table that an instructor can work with. Looking only at size and strength as an equivalent to fighting ability is like looking at engine horsepower as a measure of car driveability. It's much, much more than that, as we both know.

And by the way, note that I did not equate strength with power. There is a very, very big difference. Ask any Olympic lifter. Ask folks (like me) who've spent hours on the holding end of that hitting pad.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Laird

You ARE an old salt, working with the rigid poles and such.

Those that use "unorthodox" methods - with success - intrigue me.

Keep them honest; don't cut anyone slack. As one of my students used to say, "Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."

- Bill

[Van Canna]

I brought Andre up because he's one of those deluded Uechi guys. That is a familiar patch on that "traditional" gi, no? He did get "traditional" training, no?

Cut the BS Bill…there is nothing wrong with Uechi..

Uechi is a formidable toolbox…the delusion is all about “a man not knowing his limitations” sound familiar?

As I said very early on in the post, these guys would be real dangerous if they knew how to use their bodies.

And my point is that they are dangerous enough to put you or anyone else in a pine box just by the sheer weight, reach, natural conditioning, and intent, if it came to that.

[Bill Glasheen]

All points well taken except for one.

Bring all the big boys on, Van! Forget Missouri; been there, done that. We love having them. I don't have time to worry about the pine box when there is so much fun to be had. And that's the way it should be.

Anyone within hearing distance... Tell Andre to come visit us; we'll put him up. And tell his instructor Steve Banchick to come along. Steve's a good man. I still remember the Thompson Island Uechi camp where all the Chinese came, and we were sneaking them off the island for ice cream just to piss their Communist political officer off. At the end of the camp, a handful of us (myself, Maria Olivas, Peggy Hess, etc.) roughed a night on Steve's floor in his beautiful house. Those are the best memories...

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Carpe Diem! - Seize the day!
Classic line used by Williams' character in Dead Poets Society





Carpe per diem! - Seize the paycheck!
Play on classic latin line by Robin Williams

- Bill