Has Uechi been diluted

[Josann]

My understanding of the wauke is that it IS a block. Master used the posting a a training aid, nothing more. Master Takara and the shohei ryu branch of uechi teach the wauke as two blocks- one hard and one soft. The moving hand is the soft and the stationary hand is the hard. You might find yourself using one or the other or even both at some point. You would never post when applying the block, it is merely to train one to keep the shoulders down during the application.

The wauke is a very effective block. I have sparred with people using boxing techniques and have been able to utilize the circular block and grab. If you don't believe the block works try it in a boxing situation and you may be surprised at its effectiveness.

I agree with Bill. Kata is the roots of what we do. Sparring deepens our study. However it is up to each of us to train after the class, spar with others, cross train etc if we want the martial part of our martial art. It is our responsibility, not our teachers, to deepen the study and get from karate what we are looking. Their are so many facets of uechi ryu that the best fighter can learn from the whitest of the white belts if we try with an open mind. Most teachers will answer questions, show us their bunkai etc. yes, teachers should be an inspiration to us, but at some point we need to inspire ourselves.I am in this 14 years and my teacher and seniors are an inspiration. However, it is up to me to get the most out of my training.

Just my more than $.02.

Josann

Is it watered down? Probably. But who's fault is that? It is the fault of each of us if we feel that way. I think that is why so many give up the study after shodan. They don't have the imagination, creativity, or whatever to go deeper.

[Stryke]

Thanks Josann

and all dont get caught up on my definition of blocks , I class a block as reactive , that`s what i dont buy .

I personally like Vans Image of casting a net , pure offence .

I just threw the question on posting out there for why ? , I think the Sword and sheild posture to be a superior positional strategy .

If just a training tool , then it`s not important to be there then fine .

as long as one understands the uses .

[JimHawkins]

and all dont get caught up on my definition of blocks , I class a block as reactive , that`s what i dont buy .

I think of reactive as adaptive...fitting in. I move second yet I arrive first... But I don't believe in multiple passive movement counters in general.

I just threw the question on posting out there for why ? ,

I think the Sword and sheild posture to be a superior positional strategy .

What is posting? Sword and shield?

[Stryke]

sword and sheild

One hand up and one down Jim , kinda like that Bruce Lee JKD stance .

Posting

on the beginning of the Wauke instead of holding the rear hand high as a cover they drop it to the elbow to ensure the elbow doesnt move .

And for the record I`m not saying I`m right just asking why ?

[JimHawkins]

Thanks Marcus,

sword and sheild

One hand up and one down Jim , kinda like that Bruce Lee JKD stance .

Oh, ok.

I didn't find the JKD 'ready' as useful as the WC variant, which is neutral and advanced...

Posting

on the beginning of the Wauke instead of holding the rear hand high as a cover they drop it to the elbow to ensure the elbow doesnt move .

To me these are different techniques.

[Bill Glasheen]

What is posting?

For lack of a better description... It's doing the primary circular movement in the Uechi system with training wheels.

* Without posting, one starts with both hands forwards. The circling hand does its thing independent of but in synchrony with the other hand. I generally call that other hand the parrying hand. Sometimes the parrying hand stays put, and isn't used at all. Sometimes it goes through the centerline, and back to a chambering position. In more advanced kata, that secondary hand does some pretty nifty things. And in application, the timing of the parrying hand w.r.t. the circling hand can vary.

* With posting, one starts with the circling hand forwards. The posting hand then has the forearm in front and parallel to the body. The elbow is out, and the hand is supinated and touching the inside of the circling elbow's inside. When you circle, that posting arm keeps you from taking the circling hand off of an imaginary plane in front of your body.

For what it is worth... Many years back at a Uechi camp mid-1980s, I first worked with Kanmei Uechi. He was the one who taught folks how to do the circling movement without posting. I distinctly remember how beautifully controlled his movement was, and it inspired me to toss the post away completely. It is fraught with teaching you bad habits that can mess you up later on.

I use the post or some other device only when dissecting movement while drilling technique. But in the same class, I will tear the training wheels away and teach folks to do the circling movement w/o the post.

The one benefit of posting is that it just happens to be the finishing position of "hawk chases sparrow" in seichin and sanseiryu. It is a posture that contains some fun hidden applications. So it isn't entirely w/o use.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

Thanks Bill, I got it.

So I agree with the final thought that these are different expressions.

I see the wa-uke as a symbolic expression of filling the space and time that both hands/arms move through.

To get all 'ideas' from the movements I think you have to look at it in all its phases with hands both synchronous and asynchronous.

I would also look at variations of linearity and elongation - spiraling of the circles.

[Stryke]

Thanks Bill , informative post

[Mills75]

just a thought but I could not even begin to address this in any way shape or form and say what is diluted and what is not really.I truly believe in the traditional ways but some even would argue the meaning of that ya know it's just hard to say with so many different Sensei teaching the same art with some variation here and there.Who is to say what is real and what is substitute? Personally I would rather trust my Sensei and have faith in him and this faith is deserved I believe than to try and say what others may be doing is not this or that or the other thing.I have to admit some may think it's learning and interesting conversation to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo.
and please don't think I'm putting the forums down but I think there is way to much focus on everyone having the way of the warrior ya know.The real answers it's all kind of silly because after this talk is over we will still not know anything more then when it began.I say Uechi is what you make of it and what you desire of it and i Love the art.I could never speak for Kanbun Uechi but from what I have read and learned about him that he wanted self defense of course through his teachings but also much more to go along with kicks and punches and techinques and to develop a whole person.I say practice what you believe and believe what you practice and no not blindly but then there is another topic who is blind and who is not? see what i mean lol..you know I think all you guys are great and I do just some questions just don't seem to have clear answers and in my mind this is one of those questions..

Jeff

[Rick Wilson]

Jeff:

“I truly believe in the traditional ways but some even would argue the meaning of that ya know it's just hard to say with so many different Sensei teaching the same art with some variation here and there.”

Yep, I for one would argue the meaning that some have made traditional into.

“Who is to say what is real and what is substitute? Personally I would rather trust my Sensei and have faith in him and this faith is deserved I believe than to try and say what others may be doing is not this or that or the other thing.”

All we have is our opinions and beliefs that have been derived from our training and study. I do not beleive in blind faith.

“I have to admit some may think it's learning and interesting conversation to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo.”

Man how many times do people have to post here that the forums are something we do AFTER we come off the dojo floor.

“and please don't think I'm putting the forums down but I think there is way to much focus on everyone having the way of the warrior ya know.
The real answers it's all kind of silly because after this talk is over we will still not know anything more then when it began.I say Uechi is what you make of it and what you desire of it and i Love the art.”

Sorry but this comment IS a put down because it implies those post on these forums do so RATHER than work out in a dojo -- WRONG!!!!

“I could never speak for Kanbun Uechi but from what I have read and learned about him that he wanted self defense of course through his teachings but also much more to go along with kicks and punches and techinques and to develop a whole person.”

Once again I think the martial focus and the martial path that many posting here proscribe has been missed. In what way does it NOT lead to addressing being a whole person?

“I say practice what you believe and believe what you practice and no not blindly but then there is another topic who is blind and who is not?”

I agree. Blind faith – even of a Sensei is NOT my path.

“see what i mean lol..you know I think all you guys are great and I do just some questions just don't seem to have clear answers and in my mind this is one of those questions.. “

It is the discussion and sharing of thoughts that is important, Jeff.

[Stryke]

“I have to admit some may think it's learning and interesting conversation to me all it serves to do is take time away from real training that I believe can only be done in a dojo.”

Real training is mental and physical , Ive trained physically everyday this week , ideas and research and thoughts and forums are all extras not instead of .

I`d suggest the regular people on this forum are all dedicated real world trainers .

Yes it`s a bit much and a bit excessive and maybe a bit odd

But the exceptional always go to exceptional lengths

Blindly training and doing the same thing produces the same results , if your happy with that fine , if you want to improve work on it .

For the record I`m a bit nuts about MA , its what i do , heck I`d fly around the world to learn something if i thought it`d get the learning process going again .....

The forum is a tool , no more so than a heavy bag or a favourite reference book .

But the true benifit is theres similar folks who might just change your mind .

I look forward to being wrong .. it`s great for learning .

[Mills75]

Thank you Rick and Marcus and I respect these thoughts and if I put down forums i didn't mean to be disrespectful cause I do respect all of you it's just a hard topic and yes discussion is good it's just it seems to be a real vague thing to me and a very general type thing to ask if Uechi is diluted.I think you'd really have to experience so much from so many different sensei to truly be able to say if only in your opinion that it is or is not was my only point I suppose.I just don't think anyone can come out of this particular topic much clearer on the subject.but the sharing of thoughts and ideas is good.I guess to me this one topic is kind of like saying are the steelers of the seventies better and more effective in playing true football then the present day team.some will say yes and some will say no but who is right will always remain what it began as and that is the question..

Jeff..

what one see's as a put down many would call constructive and helpful and advocate having thicker skin and realizing that it's only people sharing views.or is that only for some who subscribe to the same views most of the time. just a test to see if the playing field is level.When George Mattson asks for welcomeness and share's a certain point of view I see him called soft and out of touch and there is talk of ninety year old arguements about Uechi and it's organizations.I said what I said for a reason as a test to see if I would be the goat or the champion of free speech and thick skin.some say whatever and it's always heralded as being good for the cause and others say different and it's out of touch and a put down.from what i have seen in some posts a put down again like this post is a matter of opinion.and really not to be disrespectful truly but it seems as i have read numerous times on other threads to be offended or whatever is all dependant upon the eyes you are looking through so really I just thought i was practicing proper protocol.

[Bill Glasheen]

We need to cut people a bit of slack here and there. These forums ae filled with people from all walks of life, and different belief systems that they bring to the martial arena. I never took your comments to be negative, but then I've seen you post before. You were just speaking your mind, and that is allowed so long as you can allow others to do the same.

You do bring up an interesting issue though. When one entertains the question of whether or not Uechi is becoming diluted, well that implies a progression (positive or negatie) from point A to point B. If your main reference frame is a small window of time with a teacher you respect and meets all your expectations, I guess the most appropriate response would be a big shrug. So in a way, I think your response is perfectly reasonable. Why SHOULD you think differently?

You are lucky to have such a teacher.

Max's question is truly one for the martial junkies who have time and travel under their belts. Others can entertain the question and make educated guesses. But at best the expressed opinion would be no better than something the brilliant young lad in Good Will Hunting could come up with. His reference frame came from reading hoards of books while never having traveled far from his troubled home in South Boston.

This is a difficult topic for the very best of us. Nobody in this thread has met Uechi Kanbun. And even the two gentlemen I know of who worked with him have that as a very distant memory. And there isn't much more that oral history to document Kanbun's sources in China. Where are the Chinese still practicing something like what Kanbun passed on?

The best the junkies here can do is take our experience and readings, and extrapolate back to the past.

It is however an extremely relevant topic. It would be different if the choreographer of our forms was alive and could be consulted with. But instead we are left with these reference books in motion that we must decifer with the help of fellow junkies. It would be different if these kata asked little of us, but that isn't the case. There isn't a single seiken fist in The Big ThreeTM forms, and yet we live in a Western Boxing culture and learn from an Okinawan fist culture. It begs the question - what the hell was Kanbun thinking? Are we on a path consistent with the one he traveled, or have we really screwed all this material up? And if we have no faith and/or street experience in all these seemingly impossible hand and toe techniques, why do we persist in practicing them?

THAT is what makes Max's question so compelling.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I see the wa-uke as a symbolic expression of filling the space and time that both hands/arms move through.

To get all 'ideas' from the movements I think you have to look at it in all its phases with hands both synchronous and asynchronous.

I would also look at variations of linearity and elongation - spiraling of the circles.

Jim, you understand our system better than most who practice it. Your educated Wing Chun mind is a good example of why I have gone to sister systems such as Wing Chun for fresh ideas about my own Uechi Ryu choreography. I've also found great ideas in aikido and Goju.

You, Vicki and I could have a blast working on the last two forms in this system.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Jeff , Never took any offence and in a way even agree