Martial Arts Professional

[Rick Wilson]

I am glad Bill made things clear.

So I will just address the real issue at hand and one that has plagued martial arts for years.

Good Business or Prostitution?

The rift between those who see martial arts as something more than just another business and those who feel total commercialization is the way to go.

Let’s kick things off with an old joke about a man walking up to a woman in a bar:

Man: Hey beautiful if I gave you ten million dollars would you sleep with me?
Woman: Yes.
Man: How about for a hundred dollars?
Woman: Certainly not! What do you think I am?
Man: We already established that, now we are just haggling over the price.

This seems to be the thought process of many in the martial arts world. If you make any money teaching martial arts then you are prostituting the art.

Yet the reality is that there are excellent instructors who have had to close down because they could not pay the rent.

“You must draw the line somewhere.”

But where?

Let’s get right down to the nitty gritty and really talk about this. I most certainly have my bias and I apologize if I inadvertently let it show through. I will endeavour to present the sides of the issues as best I can but I am sure I will need help so input from everyone will be needed.


Topics:

1. Is Karate just another service?
2. Contracts
3. School and Class size
4. Head instructor involvement
5. Set curriculum and lesson plans
6. Student recruitment
7. How young is trainable and what is baby-sitting.
8. Promotions
9. Special events (birthday parties etc.)
10. Flavour of the Week Programs
11. Personal journey or mass movement
121. Do the seniors owe anything back to the school?
13. Do we dilute the training to make it palatable to the masses?
14. Glitz vs. substance


1. Is Karate just another service?

Is karate just another service? Just another commodity being sold/

If so then can the “client” demand how the classes are to be structured and what is to be taught?

When you lease a cell phone you pick and choose from the services offered.

Should Karate clients get to pick and choose what they want to participate in?

Or is it like a University where you should be “accepted” or not and you have to measure up or leave.

Is the student teacher relationship something different from hiring the plumber to repair a leak?

What is negotiable?

Certainly if a student has a physical limitation the art and the training can be adjusted to fit but is that different from just not “wanting” to do that nasty stuff with all the hitting.

I guess my point of view is simple. It is my school and I teach what I teach. Come or do not come. At the same time my senior students make great contributions to what we do, but then they have earned that right.

* What do you think folks is Karate just another service where the client runs the show?


2. Contracts

Good or bad or is it how you use them?

We sign contracts for services every day: rent, leases, loans: accommodations, cell phones, fitness clubs etc.

Contracts sets out the terms between the two parties and ensures both parties comply.

Contracts give the school some security because their bills come in every month and they need a secured income.

Contract can be sold and as was seen on another thread that can lead to abuses.

Or is this is a teacher student thing and should not be based on paper at all.

Are contracts just a way to lock in students and trap them?

Is the unsuspecting public being locked into a long-term deal before they know enough to decide?

In my school you get a week or two free, then you sign up for two months and then you must commit to a year.

* Contracts – right or wrong and why?


3. School and Class Size

I have taught classes of twenty to thirty people in another school, and it pretty much was leading them through drills with very little time to spend on a single person.

I have taught one or two people.

I have taught ten to sixteen people.

I like to get right in there when I teach and move from one group to the next and join in to the actual work out. I think you learn so much more about their progress by crossing arms with your students.

Now a big class can have assistant instructors to increase that more personal training.

We have been raised in a large group class mentality where one professor lectures to a few hundred students as opposed to the professor working with just a few students.

We have been raised by lining up and being lead through callisthenics so the line up and drill mentality works for most westerners.

Is it optimum?

Clearly working with a few students gives them far better attention and therefore instruction BUT this pretty much relegates you to small second profession of teaching Karate practice because unless you charge some outlandish fee you cannot make a living from teaching six students at a time.

But what size of school is big enough?

In a small school the seniors still “teach” even if it is one on one with the junior student they are working with.

How big a class can be handled before the personal instruction becomes just running a group through an aerobics class?

* What do you feel is the optimum class size to learn from?
* What do you feel is the optimum class size to teach?
* Can assistant instructors compensate?


4. Head instructor involvement

If the school gets too big do they even recognize the head instructor?

I know of one school where when asked on a Kyu test who their instructor was the student said John Smith (who taught the noon hour classes they attended), NO NO NO said the tester you belong to the John Hancock Karate School. The student protested that he had never had a class from John Hancock.

I know of one student who attended two classes a week for eighteen months and never once had a class from the person whose name was on the school.

But then does a white belt need to be taught by the highest ranking person in the school?

Are there not many things even a green belt could teach them?

How big a school makes it too big for the person who owns the school to “know” his “students?”

I teach every class unless I am out of town or unavailable but that is very rare. At the same time I have senior students who work with the junior students and “teach.”

I also train with my students.

* Does the head instructor need to teach everyone some of the time?
* Should the head instructor get in there and train with the students?


5. Set curriculum and lesson plans

This is a good one because there is a line between having the lessons prepared and a proper curriculum and setting up a cookie cuter teaching system.

With a small school I do not preset lesson plans. This does not mean I have no idea what to teach just that I need to see the mix of students before I begin. In addition I am constantly working on doing this better and what I learn I incorporate directly into classes.

This can be tough at the start because it takes a while to see the thread of principles that are the connecting pieces between everything we do. However, I find this helps creating “thinking martial artists.”

It can be good because the school and the training is constantly evolving and improving.

Now in a larger school the concern may be for maintaining the standard and consistency of what is being taught and making sure the material the Head Instructor wants covered is actually covered so the curriculum and drills help guide the instructor team.

Large groups are also easier taught the more prearranged and the more repeated the drills are. Everyone knows what and when to do it.

Throwing additional things at them all the time and challenging them to new heights all the time is very hard to do consistently over a number of teachers.

There has to be a core of what is taught and that core has to improve constantly.

So having a curriculum and lesson plans does not exclude them from this but it takes more time and active attention.

* Lesson plans are good but how do you prevent them from become restrictive or cookie cutter?


6. Student recruitment

How far do you go?

Where is the line between good recruitment practices and creepy used car salesmen?

When someone calls in is there a set patter delivered and when someone drops by is the goal to sign sign sign them up?

Well, you cannot interest people in what you do unless they see it and take part in it so having a good “phone person” can be important or else the McDojo down the street draws them in.

While pressure tactics may not be appropriate how hard do you work at “closing the deal?”

I have not had many people drop down to try the school out that do not sign up but I am not the most successful at getting people down to the school off the telephone call so maybe I do need a patter?

Do you answer all questions on the phone (times and costs)?

Should you or should you not tell them everything so they come down rather than simply moving their finger down the page of the Yellow Pages and calling the next school who may get them down for the “sale.”

* What is good sales practice and what are pressure sales?


7. How young is trainable and what is baby-sitting?

Karate Tots – 2 to 3 years old. I have seen these classes advertised.

The business theory is that you need to interest them in your school as early as possible. If the school down the street signs them up for the 2 to 5 year old classes then when they are six and seven (more standard ages to start kids) they will just continue on in that school and you lose the potential students.

At the same time, what Karate can you teach the average two year old?

At the same time you can give them a healthy physical work out.

So are we Karate teachers or baby sitters?

Is there anything wrong with teaching tiny tots in the hope you can teach them real Karate later on?

Kids need to have self worth and proper instruction can give them that.

Kids need street proofing and the earlier the better.

* What age is appropriate to start teaching?
* When is it just baby-sitting and is that wrong?


8. Promotions

Are they for sale?

I know of more than a few schools where the students think the monthly test list is longer when the rent is due than when things are flush.

Should there be a testing fee for Kyu ranks?

I have never had one, but many places do.

If the clients are buying a service is there pressure to keep the promotions going?

Is there a fear of losing students if they are not tested and passed?

Or, if the expectations are clear is this just not an issue unless you make it one?

* If this is a service for sale industry is there a danger that this will drop the promotion standards to accommodate the clients?


9. Special events (birthday parties etc.)

Is part of teaching Karate running a birthday party in hopes of signing up more kids?

Are we Karate Schools or Entertainment Centres?

I must say that I have a person aversion to this one.

I am sure this is good recruitment and retention idea for kids but it really has absolutely nothing to do with martial arts and is solely in the realm of marketing.

I was once asked to run this aspect of a school and I turned it down saying it would be something I would despise doing. Just not part of a serious martial art school for me.

But, is there anything wrong with it being totally for marketing or is my brain stuck in old time thinking?

If you have people who enjoy running such programs then where is the harm?

The kids get to show off what they do in their karate. Some other kids get a taste of karate. Everyone has a good time and the school gets some marketing out of it.

* Should Karate schools use birthday party like things as marketing? If so why? If not where is the harm?


10. Flavour of the Week Programs

There is a tactic in logic called the “Slippery Slope.”

Basically I get you to agree to one thing and then I shift it very very slightly. The shift is so small it really does not change your opinion so you agree to that shift. Then I shift again. The shifts are so small that eventually you find yourself far far from your original position and you have no idea how you got there. Had you been asked to shift all that way at the start you would say NO.

The theory behind the Flavour of the Week Programs is that you draw students in to your school that would never come but once they are there they may shift over to the real Karate training.

The other argument is that you use these Flavour of the Week Programs to pay for the real Karate training.

The arguments are not wrong.

But how far and what will you teach?

The Tae Bo or Cardio Karate craze is a good example.

This was a big deal and the thought was that if you had 200 Cardio students then may be a percentage would sign up for real Karate classes and if not at least the rent was paid.

Now I must admit that if anyone was going to be teaching a Cardio Karate class it would be better if a Karate Teacher was as opposed to the aerobics instructor who took a two day certification course.

But what is being taught? Are you focusing on the principles or just a good cardio work out and is that appropriate or does it matter?

Why not add in those two-day Taiji certification courses or how about Yoga or Combat Yoga?

Where is the line?

Can we slide down a slippery slope into selling anything as long as there is a sucker to buy it?

Or are we being too tight on our thoughts because getting people into good cardio shape or healthy through a Yoga or Qigong program is not a bad thing.

* So where do you draw the line?
* Do you teach anything to bring in the crowd or just what relates to martial arts and do you attempt to keep it real?


11. Personal journey or mass movement

This is where we talk about cookie cutter franchise vs. personal teacher student relationship.

If a school is successful then what made it so? Was it the program? Was it the teacher?

Can you package it and sell it?

Is Karate a commodity that can be pre-wrapped and micro waved by anyone?

Can you create a system?

Can you teach principles in a system or just techniques (movements)?

Is Karate the same as a weight loss program or a fast food restaurant where you just follow line by line what you learned at burger school and your franchise will sell the most burgers and you will make lots and lots of money?

(Yes the preceding was done with loaded words.)

Is there anything wrong with having help to set out a strong curriculum and good business applications of that curriculum?

Is there anything wrong with having a solid well thought out base to instruct from?

We talk a lot about Karate being a personal journey but if you are to perform just like the four hundred other students in the school then is it?

* Can you franchise out a proper Karate program and still call it a personal journey?


12. Do the seniors or students owe anything back to the school?

Wow this is a tough one.

I have a hard time asking students to do things for free for the school. I think it is because I have seen this aspect of the relationship abused and heard of horrible abuses.

I have heard about students being given what they were expected to buy for the new school or the instructors Christmas present.

I have heard about students being told if they did not teach free for the school they could not be promoted.

Well, it goes on.

At the same time I could not have made the last move of my dojo without my students helping me out and they were happy to.

So where is that line once again.

And if we are truly just another business selling a service then can anything be expected or do what the best of both worlds?

Would you volunteer to drop by the fitness centre one weekend and clean it for free when you were paying $80 a month to train there?

Would you work free at any other place you pay to attend?

Why are martial arts thought of differently and where does that obligation that is felt become abused?

I see many commercial schools wanting the best of both worlds. They want it to be “just business” when it comes to fees and the collection of fees but they also want to tap into that historical student obligation to get work done for free. Is this right or moral or part of that character we try to sell Martial arts based on?

* Should martial arts schools expect the students or teach or do other things for the school free or is that what they pay you to do?


13. Do we dilute the training to make it palatable to the masses?

To appeal to a larger audience a product is often diluted so that more people care for it.

In martial arts often the training is softened so as not to be too hard. They don’t want people driven off because the training is too tough.

We can accommodate physical differences but in the end we need to train what we need to train and those who commit should get the proper training.

If we drop something from the training simply because it is too tough for the majority of the people then we have weakened the art.

* Gee I don’t seem to have a question here just an opinion.


14. Glitz vs. substance

Hey everyone loves a nice fancy place but does it matter if it is functional?

Should it matter?

I know those who do not understand the art need to be drawn in and glitz I guess helps.

I have a few weight devises at my school. I have a couple of beautiful hand weights that were hand made and hand painted by my Karate Brother David Elkins. Gifts I cherish and proudly display. I have some nice modern weights that were custom made and they are very nice looking. I love them too. I also have some big old mayonnaise jars filled with sand that we use because I cannot afford the jars.

I know that some think the mayonnaise jars mean we have a shoddy school.

I see them as very functional and therefore the training is the important thing and not the pretty superficial looks.

At the same time I would not turn down nice set of jars if offered.

But the fundamental point here is that some people cannot see the true art past all the glitz and the training is no longer important just the looks and the marketing.

Yes a nice looking school will draw in the uneducated students but the substance has to be there.

Substance is all that matters.

And if you think it cannot be provided by a Mom and Pop Karate school then you are not a student of Karate just a pretty long belt wannabe.


***********************


And I guess perhaps after this very long rant I have found my answer to the question:

* Where do you draw the line?

You draw the line when what you are doing affects the substance of what you are teaching.

Have a nice frontage with a good communicator answering your phones. This draws in the students and you provide the substance of the training.

Go ahead and have a program to pick up kids at school. It helps parents and you can teach them some excellent skills.

Have nice equipment; however, if you only have one old battered heavy bag, then make sure it is still hanging up and being used.

Treat your students with the respect we should be teaching and give them the best training you can.

Do NOT dilute the art to allow it to fit the masses.

If it affects the substance of what you should be teaching, then do not do it.

If it does not affect the substance of what you are doing then why not use it to improve business.

Where do you draw the line – when it affects the substance of what should be taught.

Is that a good place to draw the line?

[AAAhmed46]

Bill....Rick........long posts........

[benzocaine]

This is another good book.

[gmattson]

Excellent article. Please start some individual topics focusing on each of the points you raise.

Interestingly, IUKF has been exploring all of these questions while trying to come up with a reasonable business program for traditional dojo.

You and Bill have identified the major questions and concerns every teacher should look at very carefully before they attempt expanding their dojo or building that "supersized" dojo.

I'm sure some teachers will find this discussion too sensitive to share with our students, but I don't believe this is so. Our students should be aware that their dojo is not something that "popped" out of the ground magically and is maintained with good will.

[jorvik]

I think contracts do get abused ........and I'm not referring to Rick or anybody else here. In my country it tends to be health clubs that use them....so folks will get a years contract and after maybe a month drop out and yet still have to pay the money for another year.
That is what I don't like, and I think a lot of folks are starting to think like me and so they don't get into contractual agreements. I would never join a martial arts club on the basis of a contract .......................that doesn't mean they are wrong.
What I would do is offer somebody the opportunity to train on a come and pay basis, then I would discount it..so say a lesson costs $5 you get three lessons for say $10.so you get a lesson free ........and I would offer bigger discounts to folks who opted to take out longer contracts....................but i would expect them to pay in advance. So there would be different types of student, you would attract people on a different basis......and it is good because it would keep the club honest .....................if a lot of folks dropped out because the teacher expected presents at Christmas time then he'd soon get the message

[Bill Glasheen]

Well, Ray, the world is your laboratory. Why not try out some of these ideas and see if they fly? If you find a better way to do things that work - at least in your region of the world - then we'd all like to hear.

The contract or other "strings attached" are ubiquitous over here as a general business practice. But there are always caveats where you can choose another option.

One example comes to mind - the cell phone. It's a God awful business, but fortunately government for once did something good. It used to be that you couldn't carry your cell phone number from one carrier to the next. That got nixed. But if you want a cell phone, you need a carrier. And the large carriers find ways to hook you in. If you want to pay for a nifty phone with all the latest whizbangs, you can get it on the cheap IF you sign a 2-year or similar service contract. Once I signed up for such a service and opted not to get phone replacement. A week after I got this nifty new phone, I was bending over a toilet and the thing fell out of my pocket and in with the you-know-what. I was at a hair salon and managed to get it out and straight to a hair dryer. But it was permanently ruined. I replaced it out of pocket for 10 times the cost of what I got it when they hooked me into the contract. Most people living on a tight budget can't afford to do that. So it would be difficult to step into a cell phone service without all that up-front money. It's quid pro quo. They spot the cost of the razor, and lock you into buying their razor blades.

If you want to do martial arts as a full time career, you need to have some way of guaranteeing that the cash flows in so you can keep the lights on and doors open at the very least. Not many people have the up-front cash or the connections to get a place to work out. Moreover, the time value of money dictates that putting all that money in up front like that may not be a good idea. Should a martial arts instructor be in the business of buying and selling real estate? So they need some way to cover the lease and the utilities, and make some money to eat.

If you sit down and talk to people who have managed successfully to teach for more than 10 years, you'll find a dozen different ways to skin the cat. It varies from home or back yard dojos to classes in health clubs to university or parks and recreation programs to leasing space to building your own dream dojo with high tech springy floors. I've seen them all.

One of the most unique operations I ever saw is David Lamb's dojo in Lincoln, Nebraska. They have a gymnastics facility where Dave helps to teach. His daughters all competed in AAU and NCAA gymnastics, and one daughter has made a career of it through Cirque de Soleil. Meanwhile, he uses the "floor routine" stage to teach Uechi. It's a spring loaded floor. God do I love it! No wonder those pixies can jump and split and tumble like that! IMO, it's the dream floor for a Uechi instructor who wants to teach both the striking and the grappling side of Uechi. Far too few Uechika - including and especially our Okinawan predecessors - are capable of interpreting the grappling parts of our kata with the standard wooden floor dojo. Uechi becomes only a striking art in most of the world because of equipment limitations. Wow... NOT in my dojo!!! Not with Jack Summers. Not with Mike Murphy. Not with Joe Pomfret. How's that for a variation on the Uechi theme?

The MCMAP (Marine Corp Martial Arts Program) has that all figured out, BTW. They hook you into several years of service to your country for pay. Then they just bring the boys out on the grass or in shallow streams or on sand or gravel or whatever - rain or shine - and go for it. Those reality boys know how to do it right. But of course that's not everyone's cup of tea... Just for "a few good men" such as subject matter expert Rich Castanet.

Speaking of which... Let's give a nod to our Uechi bretheren serving in Iraq. I've met and worked with two at George's camps who are serving our country using what was taught to them. We have nothing on them - martially speaking. The real world is their dojo. They and our LEO Uechika are the quintessential martial professionals.

- Bill

[jorvik]

Quote
"Well, Ray, the world is your laboratory. Why not try out some of these ideas and see if they fly? If you find a better way to do things that work - at least in your region of the world - then we'd all like to hear."
Hi Bill

I have no interest in teaching Martial art my day job pays well enough for me to indulge my hobbies.
My post was intended to help folks like Laird who seems to be not having great results from using contracts.....I was showing how other folks feel about them and why they are sometimes hard to sell. I have seen all manner of enterprises used to sell martial arts some honest some dishonest..some extremely expensive others cheap................The most successfull guy that I know of was one of the cheapest....and he eventually bought his own premises....his approach to karate was very open, he really let people develop their own style within the style.
but as you so rightly say I live in a different culture and what fails here may succeed elsewhere and vice versa

[Valkenar]

For me, contracts are very off-putting for this kind of stuff. If I don't want to or can't make use of the services for some reason then it's wasted money. I suggest giving students the option to pay per class (at the start of class) or to buy a card for several classes (5-10 or so) . Obviously if someone doesn't pay or have a card to punch, they can't participate.

[Bill Glasheen]

The problem with that kind of arrangement, Justin, is that the student has no skin in the game.

Even though I've taught nonprofit for decades, I've found that if you don't have some handle on the student appearing, then they will find reasons not to show up. Then nobody benefits, do they? When I taught for free at a University (except for dues that covered equipment and such), I made everything up front each semester. Dues had to be paid in the first few weeks. For those in the PE program, only X number of classes could be missed or it was an automatic failure. I had a mid-term test during midterms (when students tended to drop out because of their studies) and a final test just before finals (another time students drop out). Once they were in the program for a semester, the HAD to buy a gi and show up with all their equipment each class or they couldn't participate. All these measures turned a club of about a dozen students to a club of many levels and over a hundred students.

Imagine a University or college, Justin, where students could pay by the class. How many people eventually would end up with a degree? (Hint: damn few). Face it, in any gym if there is no up-front payment or no contract to pay for a fixed number of services, then people won't show up. There are exceptions, but they are not the norm. Is it good for the student if (s)he finds reasons to quit (and there are MANY good reasons) before acquiring any appreciable level of skill with persistence and externally recognized certification? Of course not. Everyone loses.

Better than your suggestion, Justin, would be to have a pricey per-class fee for a few people who are transients (if the dojo is well known and people travel to it) along with a system that makes people sign up for many more months up front for a lesser price. That kind of system is good for everyone.

Consider also, Justin, that "collections" is a job in and of itself. For example health insurance companies about a decade ago switched from paper to electronic claims. They gave a discount to doctors who billed electronically. Time is money, and per class payments requires some individual (full time if it's a big dojo) to chase down each and every person for their per-class fee, etc. Is this a good use of the instructor's time? Of course not. Division of labor creates efficiencies and maximizes productivity. Up front payment (or a contract to pay) allows a dojo to pay its bills and forces a student to make a commitment that frankly should be made if they want value for their experience. Up front or monthly payments also means fewer transactions, fewer trips to the bank, less chance of robbery, etc. That all equates to labor which equates to money.

You take much for granted, Justin. If you were a paper boy as a child, perhaps you would have grown to appreciate details such as these.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Sounds like most people don't put much monetary value on learning martial arts, and that should tell of us something.

Personally I don't think people should be locked into something that they are not getting value from. One sensei I had didn't use contracts, he believed that the people who valued his training would come back, and you know what, they did.

Something that I'm hearing more about are backyard schools. From the couple of people that I talked with these same instructors would have had or did have a small part-time school back in the day when rents were cheaper. All seem to be very choosy about who they train and focus more on the art than trying to grow.

The alternative to the backyard school is renting floor time from someone elses school. This looks like a win-win as it helps the school owner meet his bills and helps the renter keep his costs down. I know people on both sides and most are happy with the arrangement.

[Willy]

I use contracts as the agreement also includes the liability waiver. I fly without a net, carry no insurance because I can't afford any. It's a small training group and my goal is to keep it one. The contract is a month to month agreement that basically says the student will pay 45 bucks for belonging to the club each month they belong to the club. if you train in said month you owe the month. If you stop comming you stop paying.

I offer 3 two hour classes per week. And have recently increased it to 4 classes. Works out to about $1.30 an hour.

Yeah I'm stupid I under value it and I'm giving it away.And still I get dead beat students who stiff me and don't pay.

I also waive fees if the student is injured and can't train or unemployed and can't pay....I still allow them to continue training because I think we all should train. No fees for tests under BB and I give them free belts when they grade.

I think I'd make more money working at a MacDonalds deep frying spuds one night a week. And it would free up more time for my family. Guess I'm not in it for the truck loads of money.

I'm not going to collect on a deliquent contract for services at 1.30 per hour. Hell I normaly invoice my time for $75.00 to $150.00 per hour why would I chase the price of a cup of crap coffee.

But I am disgusted by those who don't honour their word. I've not beaten one yet, but I have considered it. It's insulting to steal my time and not offer up the chump change agreed too.

Guess I must be a shitty teacher because I have fostered the strength of character we hear about all the time.

Maybe it should offer those discounted 5 or 10 buck classes.

Actually I guess I don't put a lot of value on my services. All I'm really interested in is teaching and training....I've got a day job it pays the bills.

[f.Channell]

The advice I'd offer here is 2 hours is too long a class for many adults.

It's also a long time as a teacher to keep the class exciting and coming up with fresh ideas.

People have children and spouses to get home to at night.

Better to offer 3 nights a week at an hour or 1.5 hours. Have a half hour open workout time following or before for those that want the 2 hours.

Not being critical, just trying to help. I've been there.

F.

[MikeK]

Laird, $45 a month for 4 2 hour lessons a week is a real bargain, and your contract is very reasonable. Back in the 80's I was paying $40 a month for the same deal and thought it was a deal.

The contracts that bother me are the long term contracts where if the student leaves they're still stuck with paying for a service that they're not using.

Good point about time Fred. I get to have one lesson a week that can last anywhere from 2 - 5 hours. I tried joining other schools to get suplimental classes during the week but family needed me more than I needed more karate.

[Valkenar]

I've found that if you don't have some handle on the student appearing, then they will find reasons not to show up.

I don't think that the solution to this is to manipulate people into doing things they don't want to. The university setting is very different from a public, commercial dojo. Students go to the PE class because they need a credit, not just because they have an interest in martial arts. Therefore it's neccesary to force them to go. In the real world, there's no reason to try to force people to go if they don't want to. They're there for their own enjoyment and enrichment. If they decide that they're no longer interested, that's their decision to make, not the instructor's.

The university anlogy isn't relevant, because it's completely different model. You go to a school with the specific goal of getting a piece of paper and a specific time frame. Unless you're starting up a dojo as a black belt factory, you don't have a definite endpoint in mind, nor a definite time frame. It's not goal-oriented the way a university (these days, anyway) is. I actually disagree that few people would get degrees if it were a per/class fee, but that's rather off-topic. Universities have a different pricing structure because they're a very different environment. Apples and oranges.

Time is money, and per class payments requires some individual (full time if it's a big dojo) to chase down each and every person for their per-class fee, etc.

Not true. It's very simple. You set up a chair and a table at the just inside the dojo space. A student sits there and takes money/punches cards as other students come onto the floor. If they don't pay, they don't train. When it's time for class to start the student moves the chair and table off to the side.

It may not be perfect's, but it definitely works. Whether it works better or worse than contracts is probably more a matter of taste than anything. But it might be more satisfying than writing up a contract and then having to chase people down to pay after the fact. Anyhow, it's just a suggestion. Take it or leave it, dojo owners.

Laird:

if you train in said month you owe the month.

Why not make them pay the first time they come in during the month? It's easier to deny them the service for non-payment than to chase them down afterwards. It might happen a couple of times that they say "Oh, man is it september already, I didn't bring any cash or checks" but they'll figure it out pretty quick if they're turned away. If you feel bad turning away your students for money reasons just say something like "This *****, I know, but a few people have not been paying me, so I needed to create a policy for everyone that prevents a few deadbeats from screwing me. I'm sorry you're being inconvenienced by this." That way they don't feel like they're being accused of being deadbeats, they can think it's someone else's fault, but next time they'll bring the money. And if they're good folks they'll understand why you needed to start collecting up front.

[Bill Glasheen]

I've found that if you don't have some handle on the student appearing, then they will find reasons not to show up.

I don't think that the solution to this is to manipulate people into doing things they don't want to.

Now you're misrepresenting the position, Justin.

It reminds me of the Flip Wilson "Geraldine" routines where he dresses up like a tramp female and uses his famous line "The devil made me do this." So much for free will. So much for choosing not to participate.

There is a quid pro quo relationship, Justin. The provider of services doesn't have to do everything on the customer's terms - particularly when those whims have been shown to be counterproductive to a goal-oriented group.

The problem with the "have it your way" philosophy (books have been written on this) is that the purveyor of services gets stretched thin, and so often can't meet those demands well. The "operational excellence" business paradigm is to do a few things (that are in demand) and do them really well. Customers who appreciate the services offered get the very best delivery of those services. Customers who want something different go to another vendor.

The university setting is very different from a public, commercial dojo.

Pardon me for chuckling, Justin, but this evokes a rather strong deja vu. When physicians' practices were first profiled for economic efficiency and compliance to evidence-based care (their own specialty guidelines), those used to doing things any way they want said medicine was different, and they couldn't be treated like a business, yada, yada, yada... Never mind that a hell of a lot of money goes through the health care systems, and very few doctors do charity work.

Students go to the PE class because they need a credit, not just because they have an interest in martial arts. Therefore it's neccesary to force them to go.

I wish you could have been a fly on the wall of one of my introductory meetings. I'd get in front of a roomful of 60 people, and tell them they were only going to get an hour credit for coming to class six hours a week. I told them if they wanted just to get an easy PE credit, then the directory was in the front of the room and I could help them sign up for another class. I told them there were too many people in the room so I was going to have to work them hard to make some people not entirely sincere about being there to find another activity.

And you know what? The more I made it difficult and the more demanding I was, the harder a very strong core of good people would fight to stay. Go figure...

In the real world, there's no reason to try to force people to go if they don't want to. They're there for their own enjoyment and enrichment. If they decide that they're no longer interested, that's their decision to make, not the instructor's.

Here's the thing, Justin. I've tried a lot of different ways. I've been teaching martial arts since 1978 - maybe before you were born. The more I yielded to the demands of folks who wanted to have an easy ride, the lower the attendance. The more I set the bar high and demanded commitment and excellence of my students, the better the group became. By being the very thing you object to, I was able to provide the whole dojo with a better product.

And I always tell people they can go elsewhere.

I don't do contracts, Justin. I teach nonprofit. However the gym where I teach does contracts for membership. It's the best run set of gyms in the area, beating out all the chains such as Gold's Gym. The owner can't build the gyms fast enough. The clubs are full 7 days a week, and they are now open 24 hours 5 of the 7 days a week. Because they have the steady income from contracts, they can afford the best equipment, stable employees, and provide a clean and appealing environment.

Meanwhile I've been in a few gyms around which have more flexible terms. I stopped going there because I got tired of catching fungal and staph infections from the equipment.

Nobody forces anyone to do anything, Justin. The terms are made open up front. You don't want it? Don't sign for it. You want flexible membership? Go down the street and work out in that godforsaken stinking hellhole. It's a free country.

Quid pro quo.

The university anlogy isn't relevant, because it's completely different model. You go to a school with the specific goal of getting a piece of paper and a specific time frame.

As they should. You expect something for that money that you have to pay up front every semester (or go into serious debt doing so).

Unless you're starting up a dojo as a black belt factory, you don't have a definite endpoint in mind, nor a definite time frame.

First of all, please point to a reference that defines the phrase "black belt factory." I take it that's something bad...

Second, WHY THE HELL NOT have goals in mind? Most of us who work our asses off on anything want something in return. Is certification such a bad thing? I needed those pieces of paper from UVa to get the jobs I have gotten since getting my degrees. Professionals in every walk of life get certification for training. And if the certifying entity is reputable (e.g. has high standards), then the certification can have significant value.

For one, my black belt status allows me to teach in many places in the same way that my PhD allows me to go into any academic institution and teach. What's wrong with that? Sounds like a good plan to me.

It's not goal-oriented the way a university (these days, anyway) is.

Not to speak badly of you, Justin, but this statement really insults me and every teacher who cares about the art.

You're damn straight my teaching is goal oriented! To suggest otherwise is to imply we're no better than a social club.

I actually disagree that few people would get degrees if it were a per/class fee, but that's rather off-topic. Universities have a different pricing structure because they're a very different environment. Apples and oranges.

Not true. They are like any business. Ask any folks in any University business office. Go talk to the University president.

Universities ARE businesses. Some are partially supported by taxpayer dollars (public institutions). Some are 100% private, and rely on their reputation (the value of their degrees) to attract students because of their high prices. Universities also are research entities which contribute both to the public literature as well as work in partnership with private industry. And students benefit from the research experience of some of the smartest people in the country.

It's very simple. You set up a chair and a table at the just inside the dojo space. A student sits there and takes money/punches cards as other students come onto the floor. If they don't pay, they don't train. When it's time for class to start the student moves the chair and table off to the side.

It may not be perfect's, but it definitely works.

It's a distraction, Justin. Class time is class time; finance time is finance time.

It also takes time and effort = money to make all those bank runs with the oodles of checks, loose money, etc., etc. And someone needs to record all the chump change first and get the books straight so Uncle Sam is happy. Doing it on a per-class basis at a level to run a business that will keep an instructor secure would be prohibitively labor intensive.

And let's not forget the danger of having all that loose money around if class sizes ever got large enough. Your Sanchin isn't going to stop someone with a handgun coming in and getting that money if he knows it's there on a regular basis.

Whether it works better or worse than contracts is probably more a matter of taste than anything. But it might be more satisfying than writing up a contract and then having to chase people down to pay after the fact.

I have an interesting factoid for you, Justin. Do you know a factor that affects your car insurance rates more than having had a previous accident? Your credit score. And why is that? Because folks doing predictive modeling discovered that people who don't pay their bills are associated with all kinds of bad behavior including making much more in the way of insurance claims than the norm. Underwriting needs to price the policy to cover the expenses.

People who don't pay bills they agree to pay up front aren't good people unless it's strictly a matter of someone in a temporary job "situation." Those are the facts, Justin. Personally I'm glad to be working out in a health club alongside people who pay their bills vs. the alternative. That's my prerogative as a customer of the club, no?

I'm also happy to be up in front of a group of people who value my services. I don't care to work with people who don't appreciate what I have to offer. There's nothing in it for me - even nonprofit - and there's really nothing in it for the person who things (s)he wants the services.

As as for Laird's deadbeats, I say give them the "heave ho." You deserve better, Laird. Your teaching has considerable value. At the end of the day you'll have a better group to work with, and a better outcome.

The contract and pay-up-front business paradigms are used, Justin, because they work. If your method worked - a method YOU say is easier and better for the customer - then why isn't it a common practice in a free market economy?

If you get a chance to take some extra classes in your spare time, try a 2 semester course in economics, or a class or two in a business school. You'll be surprised what you learn.

Check out what dojos are doing well. Find out how they run things. This is the big, free, open experiment. Methods which work - produce good students and provide a desireable environment in which to train - speak for themselves. I'm a big believer in listening to the data.

- Bill