Iraq: Haliburton Employers gang rape an employee.

[Kuma-de]

So the fact that we have "unlawful combatants" being treated a bit roughly to obtain secrets that have saved lives does not bother me. This is war, a reality of war. We cannot fight a PC war.

The biggest problem I have with gitmo is that people who have no business being there are packed up and held indefinitely without charges. Not just captured "unlawful combatants"

Each and every person that has made their way to Gitmo courtesy of the US has been investigated and repatriated to their countries of origin. Over 800 have passed through the gates of Gitmo and only 290 are still being held as enemy combatants. Source (albeit biased):
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/09/06/38762.html

But we have reached a point at which the rules apply only to us, while our enemies are permitted unrestricted freedom.

Yes, it stinks being the only morally decent party in an altercation. It's still better than letting yourself be dragged down into savagery.

Savagery? Where is the savagery? Driving nails into peoples hands, chopping off penises, throwing people bound & gaged from 3rd story windows, holding public executions as Soccer games half time shows. Knowing that if you turn away and not watch, you may be picked out for similar fate. This is torture and savagery at its best.

Savagery is an IED planted in a baby stroller next to a baby. Or on a vest of a pregnant women..this is savagery.

But we differ here in some respects, if someone can give up secrets as to where a ticking dirty bomb is, then water board away. (Water Boarding to me is NOT torture or we would be guilty of torturing ALL of our military that complete the escape and evasion course where they are each given the treatment)

Isn't there a difference between experiencing pain and distress in a controlled environment among friends with the expectation of making it out intact and being put through the same procedure by enemies?

Believe me when you are water boarded during this program it is not done by "friends". They treat you just like any other captive and it is anything but a "controlled environment"!

Torture, no! Water boarding terrorists who do not "adhere to standing conventions" only if it is going to give us actionable intelligence and save lives.

But how can you know ahead of time that the person A> has actionable intelligence and B> that torturing him will get it? If either of those turns out not to be true, then you've just tortured a person for no gain.

Your naiveté of the process is showing through an interview process takes place where facts are gathered and information is proved or disproved. After this thorough investigation does the interrogation portion come in. We don't immediately run for the water board. There are many tools to the trade such as sleep deprivation, loud music, sensory disruption, etc.

p.s. I was able to obtain this "Classified" clip of 2 CIA interrogators water boarding a subject. Your comments?

A couple kids screwing around, not really doing it right. Not too impressive.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/09/06/38762.html

Just a little lark of a production to lighten everyone's day.

Lastly, you may want to read through the thread "Apathy and the Tightening Noose of Terrorism Against America" in Van's forum. http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=14615

[Valkenar]

Absolutely, as human beings they should be held accountable for their actions. I'm not saying we shouldn't kill them, I'm not saying we shouldn't imprison or interrogate them.

But is there no middle-ground between a pat on the back and wholesale torture? I like to think there is. It's an understandable reaction to want to appear strong when faced with a vicious opponent. It's reassuring to take a strong stance and think "If I look tough enough, nobody will mess with me." But that's just not true. Brutality and inhumanity doesn't really make us any safer.

Think about it, when the terrorist display inhumanity does it make you want to leave them alone? No, it makes you want to rip their faces apart and grind their bodies into dust. Wanton cruelty will never put a stop to a conflict. Like any feud, it won't stop as long as both sides are committed to viciousness.

[cxt]

Val

"why?" "whats the point?"

The "point" is that it goes to overall credabilty...or the lack thereof as the case may be.
Back in grad school I had the unpleasent experience of dealing with a person that was frothing over "Isreali terrorism"....when I asked his opinion of Palestinian "terrorism" he was full of empty excuses and post-hoc rationalization...the up shot was that the guy was not opposed to "terror" per-se but was motivated by an overwhelming anti-Israli bias.

I honestly don't see you in the same light....just telling you how it "reads" or can be "read" when you seem to have no problem with horrific acts done by pretty much everybody else.

And as far as "parroting everyone else"---what else would you call it when you "parrot" back the talking points of those opposed to waterboarding??????
You certainly seem to think your adding to the discussion on that issue.

Again, your decsions APPEAR to be highly selective in their motivations and outrage.

Then if you can't determine whom will be harmed by what in terms of emotional damge then you must either do NOTHING or make some choices in what would scar a normal person for life.....and waterboarding does not seem to do that.

And your perfectly free to belive that waterboarding is "torture".....I and many other people disagree.

No, I didn't say that, I presume that the gulf between my values and the values of relgiously motivated mass murderers are possibly unbridgeable---NOT that could not "communicate."
They "communicate" quite well--they want women as chattal, death for homosexuals, death for practicing other relgions, death for freedom of speech, death for secular government, death for using the "wrong" names, lashing for women out in public without a male relative, no civil rights beyond what are outlined in a relgious text, etc....bascially the direct OPPOSITE of everthing we charish in a democratic western society.

But again Val is the "revenge" motivation a rational one??
Whom does not have a valid historical grievence against someone?

Besides, waterboarding someone that has information you need to save lives is dramtically different than "revenge."

As you say "their minds are human minds with all the attendent motvations and instincts."
Which INCLUDES being able to grasp a punishment and reward system.....if there is no punishement then there is no motivation to change ones "human" behavior....you can only bribe people for so long.

Human rights extend just about as far as the reach of human force.
Pearls "inalienable human rights" were certainly violated in the most gruesome mannner possible...that he had "rights" is NOT belive by the terrorists.

Because were not rapeing people as policy Val----but if you want to get even more hypothetical then its because I see rape as causeing serious physical pain and injury.

Now your parseing a single idea into multiples.

Being kind the cruel can be seen as another assault on their victems plus treating the cruel with kindness IMO would lead to more cruelity---as the cruel KNOW that no matter what they do they will be well treated----again its simple "human" nature...as you put it.

I think in some cases waterboarding can be used to prevent MORE "victems" Val.

What are YOU giving them other than the afore-mentioned platitudes?

[Bill Glasheen]

Think about it, when the terrorist display inhumanity does it make you want to leave them alone? No, it makes you want to rip their faces apart and grind their bodies into dust. Wanton cruelty will never put a stop to a conflict. Like any feud, it won't stop as long as both sides are committed to viciousness.

How quickly you equate our "objectionable" actions to the depth, breadth, and pervasiveness of those we are dealing with.

When a sociopath displays inhumanity, I don't particularly feel a need to go overboard. On the other hand, there's a side of me that has a clear objective in mind, and it doesn't tap into the empathy centers of my brain.

It's pretty much equivalent to how I deal with the yellowjackets in my yard. I take no pleasure in pouring gasoline down the hole and lighting it - poisoning the environment in the process. I get my neurotoxins and engage in a surgical strike after hours. I set traps for the queens in the spring. I make sure the county regularly empties the trash cans in the park across the road from my property. And I always have some Benadryl at hand when doing work in the yard - just in case I suddenly develop an allergy.

Nothing personal...

I view a sociopath the way I do the yellowjacket - as inhuman. They are vermin to be dealt with in a way that increases the odds that I won't have to deal with them again in the future. And I don't need yellowjacket lovers telling me what they do for our environment. They don't care for me driving my mower over their underground nests, and I don't care for their opinions on the matter. And I will win. End of story.





- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Bill,

Or as Ralph Peters says...."Just Kill Them"!

[Valkenar]

Over 800 have passed through the gates of Gitmo and only 290 are still being held as enemy combatants.

What do you think of Mark Denbeaux's research which shows that around 40% of the people sent to guantanamo are not enemy combatants? Exactly how little does a person have to do to warrant being tortured?

Savagery? Where is the savagery? Driving nails into peoples hands, chopping off penises, throwing people bound & gaged from 3rd story windows, holding public executions as Soccer games half time shows. Knowing that if you turn away and not watch, you may be picked out for similar fate. This is torture and savagery at its best.

Yes, our savagery is only second-best at this point. Just because they do things that are worse than what we're talking about, doesn't make what torture any more moral for us. Is this argument just a version of "but daddy he hit me first"? They are absolutely doing inconceivably atrocious things. Does that make our lesser atrocities, fine and dandy? I think not.

Believe me when you are water boarded during this program it is not done by "friends". They treat you just like any other captive and it is anything but a "controlled environment"!

You know full well it is being done by the military that you love and trust. I'm not saying it's easy by any means, but there's a world of difference here. You know absolutely that it's an exercise.

Your naiveté of the process is showing through an interview process takes place where facts are gathered and information is proved or disproved. After this thorough investigation does the interrogation portion come in. We don't immediately run for the water board. There are many tools to the trade such as sleep deprivation, loud music, sensory disruption, etc.

Sure, and I don't object to moderate sleep deprivation, loud music, and other forms of interrogation that fall short of torture. There's still plenty of evidence that torture is not generally effective. And plenty of reason to think that the guards are going to be eager to put the screws to someone if they have an excuse to do so.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/09/06/38762.html[/url]

Just a little lark of a production to lighten everyone's day.

Is this supposed to be a different link?

Lastly, you may want to read through the thread "Apathy and the Tightening Noose of Terrorism Against America" in Van's forum.

I that thread at one point, though not when it was active. I'll be honest to say that I don't care to go back and read through all 12 pages again now, though I did skim a few pages to refresh my memory. What point would you like to raise from it? My overall impression is that it smacked of a sort of generic kind of fear-mongering. There's a certain meme that consists of seeing an enemy of mythic proportions advancing out of the mist, and that we must round up the people to raise against this threat to life and property. It seemed like that sort of thing, predominantly, though it was a long thread with many interesting bits.

[Kuma-de]

I that thread at one point, though not when it was active. I'll be honest to say that I don't care to go back and read through all 12 pages again now, though I did skim a few pages to refresh my memory. What point would you like to raise from it? My overall impression is that it smacked of a sort of generic kind of fear-mongering. There's a certain meme that consists of seeing an enemy of mythic proportions advancing out of the mist, and that we must round up the people to raise against this threat to life and property. It seemed like that sort of thing, predominantly, though it was a long thread with many interesting bits.

Listen to the Apathy in your reply. You have absolutely no idea what is happening in this world do you?

There are people that are radicals that wake up every morning whose only mission is to find a way to kill people with viewpoints not in line with theirs.

Bill made a list above and I will not duplicate it here. Sadly, your argument against so-called torture just fizzled with this reply.

It proves totally your lack of understanding of what is actually occurring in the world.

You can hold those views, until the "enemy of mythic proportions advancing out of the mist" come to our shores and creates the United States of Amercistan!

[Seth Rosenblatt]

Listen to the Apathy in your reply. You have absolutely no idea what is happening in this world do you?

this is cute.

you can't actually refute any of justin's arguments, so you spend your time insulting him?

apathy is expressed by somebody who doesn't care. if anything, justin has been the opposite of apathetic.

[Kuma-de]

Listen to the Apathy in your reply. You have absolutely no idea what is happening in this world do you?

this is cute.

you can't actually refute any of justin's arguments, so you spend your time insulting him?

apathy is expressed by somebody who doesn't care. if anything, justin has been the opposite of apathetic.

No, not insulting jut pointing out his apathetic attitude. I have posted references and stated facts in my posts to back my thesis.

He has only used puke from various left wing blogs that I have read several times....I think I have done a good job pointing out his faux pas; as has several others in the thread.

Regards,

[Stryke]

The guys in Gitmo are not POW's--not by Geneva Convention standards--but if they were, there best bet would be to hope their buddies ceased hostilites so they could go home----if it was safe for them to do so.

Again, if they wish to be treated as such the onus is on THEM to behave as such.

IMO if you refuse to follow the dictates of warfare--such as they are--then you have no room to bitch, moan and whine when you are denined the benefits of the same set of rules.

this is nonsense , there either POW or they are Civilians guilty of a crime , you either A treat them as POW or B , you give them the benifit of due process and prosecute them for there crimes .

the fact this is a war on terror and not a real war against a real army means its pretty damn impossible for them to be regular forces in any sane sense of the war .

My personal opinion is if they are caught doing terrorist acts , and using irregular tactics , well simple shoot them on sight , this is what I beleive would of happened in any regular war .

If captured they need to be either given POW status , or they need the right to representation and trial , they need to be proven of guilt , and torture is no part of due process .

there needs to be a level of accountability , you cant have things both ways and have any moral/ethical high ground .

yeah its not simple or easy , but transparency and justice are importnat factors , the moment you sacrafice your ideals they win , little by little , they destroy the fabric the ideals of what makes a great society great .

[cxt]

Val

Interesting that you focus so strongly on only HALF fo what Kuma said about people picked up on the battlefield.

A-That is one of the reason the Geneva Conventions insist that combatants wear uniforms in the first place---so that under high stress situations fighters know whom to shoot and capture and whom to leave alone.
By not wearing uniforms terrorist are putting EVERYONE around them at risk.......and IMO they do so on purpose to cause the very situations you describe.

It would seem to me that the terrorist should bear the brunt of mistakes due to THEIR actions.

I'd say that is simply one more henious act to lay at the feet of the murderous zealots we face.

B-Its clear from the numbers that when innocent people have been scooped up, there is a mechanism for sifting them out and freeing them.........its not perfect of course, but few things are perfect even OUTSIDE the chaos of a battlefield.

C-Your conflating being sent to Gitmo with "torture" in and of itself----which given the living standards, medical care, freedom to pray etc, is a serious reach

C1-Please present evidence that EVERYONE sent to Gitmo is "tortured" and exactly how.

One of my points is that people get so wrapped up in their personal worldview that they incapable/refuse to see their own illogic.
When people read/hear words like "Bush" "Gitmo" "waterboarding" "Hallibuton" etc, they do what people always do.....instead of thinking things thu.... they search in a frenzy for ANYTHING to justify their pre-chosen postions.
Any evidence to the contrary is studiously ignored.....postions are taken that are so nuanced as to be distinctions without real differences...and utterly useless outside of the classroom.

[cxt]

Stryke

No its not "nonsense" at all.

Its a miscommunication which we can blame on me for not being more clear.

I was not making claims of their ACTUAL status, I was using an example for why they should not be released even IF they were actually POW's.

In context, POW's DON'T get to go home until the peace is signed.
If they are judged POW's then when their buddies sign peace agreements--then and only then do they get to leave.
Nobody captured in 1930's/1940's had any clue when they would be going home.
Nobody was giving a "trial"---they stayed locked up until the end of the war......pretty much period.

If they are not POW's---if they are judged to be unlawful combatants by the standards of the GC--then they have even FEWER rights--including being released.

As Kuma has established, the west, trying to do the right thing is actually sifting thu the prisoners and letting some people leave....not perfect, but were trying.

[Stryke]

thats a very valid position except .....

how long do we get to hold someone without defining there status ? , handy huh .....

either there a pow or there guilty of a crime they need to be charged with , and they deserve due process .

its that simple illegal combatant and charged and sentenced , or pow and held for duration .

and no official torture , then we can claim to be civilised .

its a small detail , but huge in terms of perception and support .

is a difficult subject no doubt .

[Bill Glasheen]

this is nonsense , there either POW or they are Civilians guilty of a crime , you either A treat them as POW or B , you give them the benifit of due process and prosecute them for there crimes

No.

• If they aren't following the Geneva Convention, then they aren't entitled to POW status.
• If they aren't citizens of our country, then they aren't entitled to any constitutional rights.

The terrorists can't have it both ways. They can't attack civilization as we know it from outside our country and expect "fair" treatment according to either U.S. or International law.

In my view they have the rights of vermin, and not much more. We should waste as little time with them as possible. Any dignity accorded them is strictly a matter of OUR discretion.

- Bill

[Stryke]

If they aren't citizens of our country, then they aren't entitled to any constitutional rights.

so all foreign humanity is lesser than Americans ? , would an american caught get due process ? , Im sure its happened ?

this is why they are called human rights

Sometimes folks need to get past the peices of legalise and recognise the intention .

We hold this truth to be self evident , that all men are created equal .

I have a lot of respect for the Ideals .

I have no time for terrorists , and frankly they get what they deserve , however , the harm I see here (politcally perceptually morally and ethically) being done is to the US , not to the crazys running around in Iraq , afghanistan et all ......

guilty until proven innocent ... nice , all I say is try them make it transparent , and then do whatever you damn well please .

And I hope everyone here is intelligent enough to realise this is an ideological stand point and not anti US in any way .

But I best leave this , silly to discuss politics , and especially war with the huge sacrafices made and being made .