Sanchin

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill,
I guess, to the extent that I gather most of the folks know or wish to post.

Whether it's apparent or not, there's a network of martial families here. The Dojo Roundtable is a gathering place - my home if you will - where various families (Uechi, non-Uechi, and mixed martial arts) come to discuss things that are important to them. It resembles the conversations we used to have back in my UVa teaching days, where students would gather and talk about any/everything for hours after every class.

The individual families are loyal to their members, whether they be fellow students or teachers (and grand teachers) that they have learned from. You know what I'm talking about here. While your Uechi teacher as a kid passed away, I'm sure you keep in touch with your first Uechi brothers in the neighborhood. (I do if you don't. Raffi is good people. He and Susan are dear friends to me and to my students.)

When families sense tension from an "outsider", I find they tend to circle the wagons and clam up. I know this discussion didn't go as far as it could have. Maybe another day, with another try. Or maybe by then what matters to you today won't matter any more, and we can talk about something else.

Got to say thanks to Dana, she was the closest. So Bill, please do not worry, soon I shall go away.

Well Dana is "family" to me. We are neighbors, we are friends from way back, and she ranks as one of the upper tier karate practitioners and teachers in my book. The fact that she was helpful to you does not surprise me. She is a class act.

You were on Okinawa for some time, and know many of the Okinawa "families." I would have assumed you knew quite a bit about teachers, students, and friends. The fact that you said some of the things that you said does puzzle me, Mark. Maybe you just didn't know. I guess I assumed too much.

But you know Bill its the warm and kindness I feel here that just keeps me coming back.

Some days are fun days here. Some days are what a friend of mine calls "Proud Mary" days. You know... the Tina Turner version. Sometimes she likes it nice... and rough.

My best to all the little Brelsfords. Come to think of it... they aren't so little any more.

- Bill

[NEB]

Well, I am a late-comer here. I read the entire thread, and I guess most things have been said already. But, to throw in my own $.02 I would say this:

If the question is "What do you make of the traditional, more compact application of the hip in Sanchin kata vs. a current method that appears to exaggerate the hip rotation?" then here is my answer. Why do we do the form in the first place? What are we trying to accomplish from it? The principles of the Uechi style as a whole are pretty much contained in Sanchin, yes? Among them, the "elbow-in position" as Larry Tan called it. It forces the muscles in the upper body to come together in a specific say. Allow the elbows to drift apart too much and you lose the setting, and consequently the muscular development that is attainable. Keeping the shoulders down and slightly forward would be another one. We've all felt (and seen in the likes of Gushi, Toyama etc.) what that does to our traps. To continue, pressurizing the abdomen in the proper way (which took me a long time to even understand) so as to have free control of the breathing, but tension that stresses the muscles down there in order to strengthen them.

I could continue all the way down to the feet, but I think everyone here knows the drill at least as well as I do if not better.

So now that we have the setting, we get to the moving. Keeping all that stuff intact while doing the movements is a good challenge. Its a simple form on the outside, but internally its a battle. Over the years of practice, one thing I have come to understand more and more deeply is the roll the hips play during striking. There is no doubt that the generation of power in Sanchin results from one's connection to the ground, the sensation of internal pressure from the hara, and an elasticity in the hip.

OK, now this is my take. Limiting the hip movement to resemble more of a flex, or elasticity forces us to "dig" deeper and find ways to increase the power of our kata. It, at least for me, makes me more aware of the connection to the ground itself. I find myself reaching down through my body all the was to my feet, and pushing off from there. And not allowing any incorrect movement in the knees, or glutes, or wherever to do it. I believe this helps create that fa jin type explosive power.

Of course, that's only part of it, because Sanchin also developes two other things. One being the muscular armor that helps us to withstand blows, and the other the gripping and clawing power we use to, well, grip and claw. he he. (It always makes me smile when I think of how viscous this all is)

During application, like fighting/sparring, where we are comparitively relaxed, all the good stuff stored up from doing Sanchin is there to augment and energize whatever it is we're attempting to do.

I believe the work some have been doing involving more emphasis in the hip is an attempt to add power to the Sanchin, and train the usage of the hips in so doing. Personally , I think that type of training is great, but might be better done in a manner more applicable to a sparring situation. For example, in neko ashi, or zenkutsu, throwing reverse punches and really emphasizing the hip, more so than you would in fighting, just to train it.

It might be interesting to hear from those who have done Sanchin with the extra hip, and find out what they were attempting to learn and develop, and if it worked.

nb

[mhosea]

If the question is "What do you make of the traditional, more compact application of the hip in Sanchin kata vs. a current method that appears to exaggerate the hip rotation?"

Is hip rotation what this is all about, old versus new Sanchin?

I'm not sure that more hip rotation is the "current" method. Maybe some people are doing it. I've heard Fedele, my instructor, say something similar to what Mark has said--should be some hip but not too much. Having studied exactly this aspect of Master Nakahodo's performance of Sanchin on the Okikukai DVD, I would guess that Fedele and Master Nakahodo exhibit about the same magnitude of hip movement, same ballpark at least. Does that mean we're behind the times or something?

I've often thought of this while reading, but I haven't mentioned it because the reference is a little obscure. There are, and for many years have been, Okinawans experimenting with whip-like body mechanics. In Kishaba Juku, for example, they teach beginners to execute big, exaggerated movements, but this is just part of the process of learning how to create body waves. Mastery of the mechanics implies having whittled the big movements down to quick, small, efficient ones.

[fivedragons]

Mark: "Now now, little dragon, play nice…."

Oh my lord, that reminds me of the time someone referred to my kung fu, as "kung fu".

Anyways, so what are these Krazy Kids doing with their hips these days? At first it will just be the hula hoop, but the next thing you know, they'll be f@cking and fighting, and carrying on like all get out.

Sounds like dirty dancing.

[maxwell ainley]

I don't think for one min this threads about the use of hips etc, its another issue . The real issue is; a old style of performance that some practice,and major doubts to its reality .
I will get to the point Toyama sensei spent 8 to ten years with Kanbun was there all day long etc, the only other person maybe is Tomoyose sensei who also as a direct opinion time spent with Kanbun ,all the other sensei on okinawa may not know anthing direct ,quite simply they were too young or were not in Japan in Kanbuns day .

[NEB]

Is hip rotation what this is all about, old versus new Sanchin?

Well, I'm not positive on this one. That's why I put the "if" in front of the question. Not to ruffle any feathers here, but I believe Mr. Brelsford had this question in mind when posting the thread in the first place. It just wasn't very clear to everyone else until maybe the last page.

[NEB]

I don't think for one min this threads about the use of hips etc, its another issue . The real issue is; a old style of performance that some practice,and major doubts to its reality .
I will get to the point Toyama sensei spent 8 to ten years with Kanbun was there all day long etc, the only other person maybe is Tomoyose sensei who also as a direct opinion time spent with Kanbun ,all the other sensei on okinawa may not know anthing direct ,quite simply they were too young or were not in Japan in Kanbuns day .

Can you elaborate a little on that? Are there any examples of "old-style" Sanchin we can see on YT? The only video I've seen of Toyama is him doing Sanseiru. Now Toyama's Sanseiru is a little different, at least in a couple angles, etc. How about Tomoyose? He doesn't seem that different from what we normally see, or am I wrong?

Would love to actually SEE what this is all about.

[Rick Wilson]

Well “IF” we want to talk about body mechanics in Sanchin, then the body mechanics we choose to use dictates the size of hip movement we use.

The body mechanics I attempt to use generate power from the feet/ankles and the knees.

In the six harmonies the knees coordinate with the elbows. In a simple definition this means you coordinate the right elbow with the right knee and the left elbow with the left knee.

If you move the elbows and the knees in coordination everything in-between moves as well. This means that the hips/waist must move as you move the knees.

However, there are two guiding principles I follow for using the knees:

1. As the knee presses forward it stays pressing over the big toe never going farther -- never off the base of the foot.

2. The opposite knee will be pulling or pressing back into the heel but must not pull back so far as to have the shin and foot 90 degrees or larger.

The “space” or distance in the rotation from knee over big toe back into the heel is small.

Given these two parameters restricting the distance of movement the resulting movement of the “hip” is small.

By using the knees and the thigh/hip joint to move you can also use vertical movement as well because the knees not only press forward and pull back but also up and down so you have horizontal and vertical movement which are used to create a spiral movement.

Because of the spiral it is a short but powerful distance.

So if this is the direction of the thread -- that's my comment.

If not -- ooops.

[M J Brelsford]

bill,
---------------------------------------------
fivedragons….
Mark: "Now now, little dragon, play nice…."
Oh my lord, that reminds me of the time someone referred to my kung fu, as "kung fu".
Anyways, so what are these Krazy Kids doing with their hips these days? At first it will just be the hula hoop, but the next thing you know, they'll be f@cking and fighting, and carrying on like all get out.

Sounds like dirty dancing.
----------------------------------------------

Nice Bill, I wasn’t going to post again, but I got an e-mail to check this out.

Glad you and your IUKF web folks allow some assbag to insult my kids.
It OK to talk ##### to me but kinda low to insult ones family. This is why folks with any knowledge don’t do anything here.

Folks are brave here, but never in person. But, again it always been that way here on GEM’s web. 99.9% Paper tigers.

Bill, thanks for having my back. I have always seen little if any tolerance for any person that does not tote the IUKF line, and it just continues. I guess that is why many of you are viewed the way they are on Okinawa. No wonder the IUKF has no Okinawan connections. Don't rock the boat or else, nice. Yet another reason why you only get the same old posters here. Another class act.

Way to go bill…

Mark

[Bill Glasheen]

Nice Bill, I wasn’t going to post again, but I got an e-mail to check this out.

Glad you and your IUKF web folks allow some assbag to insult my kids.

You lost me here, Mark. I don't read what you're reading. If I'm missing something, please help me out so I can rectify it.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

So if this is the direction of the thread -- that's my comment.

If not -- ooops.

Threads here often take on a life of their own, Rick, and that's not altogether bad. And you know your opinions are valued here. I have a hunch, but only a hunch. I think Mark came in a few days ago with one thought, and the line of thought evolved. And so it did. That's a good thing.

When I think about "old" vs. "new", I think about the kinds of things Max talks about. Max is a good man who uses his hands for a living - probably a bit like Kanbun himself. I "get" Max because at one time my dad ran his own construction company. He loved his brick layers; he had some of the best. To this day he'll show me old buildings that he built, and brag about details in the masonry that nobody else would notice. So... I get Max the way you get people you grew up with. And it's not so much what Max says as much as how he approaches what he does. I "get" George pretty much the same way.

We're all on our own journeys. I think some of us feel more righteous on our paths than others. Speaking for myself... as I learn more and more, I am humbled by what I don't know and how much more I can learn. And I don't mean go to yet another guru and beg to be spoonfed. Like most people out there, I have my own way.

These days I am perfectly comfortable figuring things out for myself as I teach in my corner of the mixed martial arts world. I intentionally took a road less traveled because of the kind of person I am. I didn't care to be told what to do; that bores and irritates me. I wanted to know why it worked and where else I could go with a simple set of driving principles. That's why I do what I do at work as well. I'm not afraid to make 4 mistakes if a 5th try leapfrogs me to where I want to be.

What makes my day is having someone like Jim Prouty spring a 35-year-old film of nameless Okinawans doing very average "Uechi Ryu" at a demo. I see stuff - good and bad. I compare notes. Another pleasure is having someone make a comment that registers in a way few people experience unless they happen to be working on the same thing in their own little corner of the Uechi world. One day it was Vinny and I chatting while looking out on Buzzard's Bay. Another day it was a comment Van made about people not contracting their abdominals at a certain point in their movement. If you've experienced these moments, you'll know what I mean. We're on independent journeys and we happen to stumble on some of the same things. That's powerful stuff. The scientific method in fact thrives on that approach. Anything that is real must be INDEPENDENTLY verified.

Anyhow... sorry I wax philosophic here. Carry on.

- Bill

[nosib]

Queston for G.E.M.

George,you were on Oknawa in the mid 50's a few
years after Kanbun's death. At that time did you ever
hear discusions or anyone mention "old style Uechi sanchin"??? Is the sanchin you do now different
than what Tommy taught you? Other than your
particular flavor,is there anything you have changed?

[Van Canna]

Glad you and your IUKF web folks allow some assbag to insult my kids.
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You lost me here, Mark. I don't read what you're reading. If I'm missing something, please help me out so I can rectify it.

Same here, Mark.

I don't see insults aimed at your children by all the posts I have read.

I would have been the first one to jump in to 'handle' the situation 'my way'...had I perceived an attack upon your children...

George would also never allow such things here.

[Dana Sheets]

I'm sitting here with a wonderful little plate holding a heaven-sent piece of bulgarian baklava and I'm thinking that a little holiday cheer is in order. Eggnog anyone?



So back to who teaches sanchin how...

My understanding is that in addition to a slight lean back, Master Toyama also teaches students to be more relaxed during their sanchin development and to not forcefully engage their muscles at the start of the training instead focusing on posture and perfect form/body alignment/ground connection. The hardness comes from daily training and other exercises.

My understanding is that Mr. Nakamatsu also teaches a more upright posture than some with the shoulders rolled back and down instead of pointed forward. I've seen an interesting difference between how some teachers hold their shoulders and how some of their students do. More often than not, the senior Okinawan teachers have their shoulders back and down. However, many times their students' shoulders are pointed more forward. I'm not sure what this means or what are the causes.

In general, I would say that Okinawan teachers and students have more relaxed shoulders and more open chests than many practitioners outside the US. This is another difference that is very interesting to me because it indicates, to me, two different ways of using the body's various abilities to develop sanchin "strength." And I put strength in quotes because I'm using it here to mean mroe than single muscle power, rather to mean body and ground connection and use in addition to conventional power.

Besides the variouns permutations of the circle block and double bushiken planes, hand positions, and targets, the other major difference I've noticed is in the direction and timing of the step-offs.

Some people step off on the line, others step off the line. I've not really had anyone tell me clearly why to step on the line although I've heard several good explanantions for stepping off the line

But, if you always have in mind that stepping adjusts in application to meet the needs of the situation, I'm not sure this difference is all that significant.

[Bill Glasheen]

More often than not, the senior Okinawan teachers have their shoulders back and down. However, many times their students' shoulders are pointed more forward. I'm not sure what this means or what are the causes.

In general, I would say that Okinawan teachers and students have more relaxed shoulders and more open chests than many practitioners outside the US.

Dana

Having done weight training for close to 4 decades, I think I have one explanation.

Many people who train - whether it be with conventional weights or with calisthenics - don't understand the need to balance strength/conditioning in the body. The Chinese might call it an inbalance between yin and yang. Trainers see it with a more mundane perspective. I was fortunate to have some great teachers in my day. My first instructor was my high school track coach. Much later on I was adopted by the strength and conditioning coach at UVa who was a world champion powerlifter and subsequently strength coach for the Dolphins. My teachers stressed the importance of balancing flexor and extensor development, or upper vs. lower body development. For example if someone's quads got more than 50% stronger than their hamstrings - and this happens a lot in karate - then they are a hamstring pull waiting to happen.

Karate people - particularly the vanilla karate kind - tend to overdevelop their chests at the expense of their backs. In the dojo where there are no weights you see people doing lots of pushups and yet not doing any back work. In the weight room you see people obsessed with their bench, but doing no seated rows or bent-over dumbbell rows. I can spot these people a mile a way. They have the puffy chest they want, but have bad (hunched over) posture.

Another syndrome I see all the time is what I call the "Big Bird" look. This is the bench-and-curl crowd who are in the weight room to puff up their chests for the girls. They wouldn't know a squat rack if they ran into it. So they get those big upper bodies combined with skinny legs. And they aren't worth a damn in any sport they try.

In other words, this hunched-over or forward shoulder look is usually a sign of improper training. You won't see it in people who know what they are doing exercise-wise, or people who don't do resistance training at all. I personally think it is a BIG mistake not training the back more in Uechi. We do have open hands... We do like to grab... And I've never seen a Uechika who didn't absolutely love jujitsu when they got the training.

I would often diagnose this kind of "bad posture" in Sanchin training, and prescribe some remedial back work. Usually it does the trick. And with the college students, I found that their mothers loved me for it.

- Bill