Let's discuss cooperative drills - II

[Bill Glasheen]

I agree with your bunkai assessment, Fred. It takes a long, long time to get through the ritual of Seisan bunkai. Meanwhile, a flowing drill like Kanshiwa bunkai or the two yakusoku kumite can be gone through pretty quickly.

That doesn't mean the Seisan bunkai isn't important, and the time spent on it isn't worthwhile. I guess it's the format that drags it down a bit.

I also don't think we have the best applications in may parts of the standard Seisan Bunkai. Several parts for instance are broken up into separate techniques when there's a combination which creates an entirely different (and more devastating) meaning.

But maybe that's for us to figure out after doing bunkai on training wheels.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Right on Fred.

The pomp may be good for test requirements where the board wants to see if the candidate understands the bases of application from the kata…but for general practice I never allow ‘pomp’ …a waste of time and ‘wrong programming’ as well.

Then I suggest to the students to visualize some habitual acts of violence likely to occur….then a grasp of what the concepts the kata teaches _ followed by applications of the same in a dynamic way closer to what would happen on the street, done in slow methodical ways first to remain safe and to imprint correctly.

These are really the dynamics of the jyu Kobo [free attack defense] that Kanbun taught [using kata techniques and concepts against common street attacks] that Breyette sensei showed me during his visit.

As to some of the ‘moves’ in seisan bunkai we practice…they were put in there for show…the original Kanbun’s bunkai did not have some of the stuff we do today.

And the love handle lift is not quite correct, though there might be some use…primarily the move teaches the taikawashi concept.

[Bill Glasheen]

And the love handle lift is not quite correct, though there might be some use…primarily the move teaches the taikawashi concept.

As I see it, the "love handle" lift is essentially the real technique on training wheels. I've discovered more interesting places to place those vertical nukites, and a better way to apply the tiger's grab. It works... One of my female students did it to someone in a bar who put his hand on her neck. A knowledge of human anatomy helps. In addition to being my student, she was also a nurse. Knew right where to go.

Problem is... Now my students are doing it to me in the bunkai.

There are other subtleties to it that one can discover if you look for them. For the life of me, I don't know why folks never talk about a head butt in Uechi. The possibilities are everywhere.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's an interesting passage. I wonder who wrote this? *

- Bill

The Kyu Kumite was among several two-person yakusoku (prearranged) sets created and experimented with in the early 1960s. The final five-set form was created mainly by TOYAMA Seiko Sensei, and is almost unchanged today. A few techniques were altered for the contemporary style, and the use of taikawashi -- body-shifting technique -- throughout the sets is not so much emphasized as it was in the older form. Tobikomi (a plunge and powerful settling-down of the body weight into certain techniques) was used originally in set number 4, but this technique was eliminated in favor of a lunge or jump forward into position. Also, set number 5 originally had a takedown which when taught and performed correctly is safe and quite effective. However, teaching and practicing this takes much time and patience, so an alternate technique was created. The Zankai practices both techniques -- the newer alternate is used for training kyu students and youth, the takedown is for Dan students.

Kyu Kumite was intended to be an "Ippon Kumite" -- start-stop kumite -- as basic training for Bunkai, and to prepare students for the more advanced Dan Kumite.

The Dan Kumite set was originally created by TOYAMA Sensei using strictly old-style fighting technique as taught him by Kanbun Sensei. The original Dan Kumite was called "Renzoku Kumite" (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei's direction. It then came to be taught and performed in Ippon Kumite style, with the continuous flow broken down into 6 start-stop sections. While the 6 sections can be performed almost non-stop, the original sequences of attacks and defenses have been changed and mixed -- however, it is easy to identify them in the old-style Renzoku Kumite. The original version makes extensive use of the difficult arts of taikawashi, tobikomi, and other techniques.

* Breyette, Gordi: History and Development of the Uechi Ryu Curriculum

[Van Canna]

Well bill, let’s start with this as it is an important point you brought up

Clearly all Uechi Ryu Karate yakusoku kumite AND bunkai kumite have Okinawan karate artifacts. As Bobby once said, this is a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes. When you're performing The Big Three, you see one set of movements that clearly have a Chinese author. When you get into partner exercises, then movements tend to have that Vanilla Okinawan Karate flavor. You know... the seiken punches, the chambering, etc. What-ever... I don't get too worked up over these artifacts. I was so used to them after having done Nippon Shorin Ken that it wasn't a biggie.

So here you clearly admit then that the foundation of Uechi Ryu _ the Kata _ are not reflected in the Kumites ….and we can only ask why, and if they are not connected to the Uechi Kata of what use are they?

The answer is really obvious to most of us: First we must define what Uechi Ryu is…

Uechi-ryu Karate is named after the founder of the style Kanbun Uechi. The style focuses on close-quarter combat. It emphasizes both striking and stand up grappling. It is known for using sharp parts of the body (elbows, knuckles) and grabbing and tearing to inflict bodily damage on the aggressor.

It seems clear that its practice is geared to close quarters combat …we have heard over and over “ it is a phone booth” style…and all practitioners clap and puff their sanchin belly in pride.

Now come the k-drills in the sixties designed for sports sparring. And they have done a wonderful job of getting Uechi students to do well in free fighting tournaments where the going was pretty rough in the days gone by.

Free fighting in the ring has different distancing requirements than those ‘phone booth’ concepts.

Uechi kata also does not program much knuckle punches for what I think should be very obvious reasons as per previous discussions on the ‘punching business’ __

K drills is all about programming straight punches for the most part…thrown and received at longer ranges…what free sparring is mostly all about in dueling fashion. And that's fine.

Do the K drills help for street defensive use? Yes and No, as per our discussions on kinds of ‘imprints’ we must be careful to accept, and for the focus on punching as opposed to kata…a critical distinction.

Why did the ‘founding fathers’ NOT _ insert all those reverse punches in the kata?

[Van Canna]

As I see it, the "love handle" lift is essentially the real technique on training wheels. I've discovered more interesting places to place those vertical nukites, and a better way to apply the tiger's grab. It works... One of my female students did it to someone in a bar who put his hand on her neck. A knowledge of human anatomy helps. In addition to being my student, she was also a nurse. Knew right where to go.

Yes and No. When you are up against a monster of an opponent with plenty of 'padding' at a 250 pounds weight fully adrenalized, with leather jackets you might as well try to move a mountain.

Again as to imprinting...we program going for the waist of the opponent. Going 'somewhere else' [soft tissue] with the technique will of course work ...but will you really go there in the chaos of combat with your imprints?

[Van Canna]

The original Dan Kumite was called "Renzoku Kumite" (continuous or non-stopping kumite) and was later modified under UECHI Kanei Sensei's direction. It then came to be taught and performed in Ippon Kumite style, with the continuous flow broken down into 6 start-stop sections.

Here you see clearly the focus on free sparring training, the focus of these modifications by Kanei Uechi.

You did write this, did you not?

Clearly all Uechi Ryu Karate yakusoku kumite AND bunkai kumite have Okinawan karate artifacts. As Bobby once said, this is a Chinese style in Okinawan clothes. When you're performing The Big Three, you see one set of movements that clearly have a Chinese author.

When you get into partner exercises, then movements tend to have that Vanilla Okinawan Karate flavor. You know... the seiken punches, the chambering, etc. What-ever... I don't get too worked up over these artifacts. I was so used to them after having done Nippon Shorin Ken that it wasn't a biggie.

Again here you clearly admit then that the foundation of Uechi Ryu _ the Kata _ are not reflected in the Kumites ….and we can only ask why, and if they are not connected to the Uechi Kata of what use are they?

You also wrote, they are only not very important exercises worth about only 5% in the grand scheme of Uechi training.

OK...It seems to me they ought to be worth a lot more, given their value for combat and free fighting.

[Uechij]

Here's some kumite for ya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciek8Lma ... re=related

[Van Canna]

…

Uechi-ryu Karate is named after the founder of the style Kanbun Uechi. The style focuses on close-quarter combat. It emphasizes both striking and stand up grappling. It is known for using sharp parts of the body (elbows, knuckles) and grabbing and tearing to inflict bodily damage on the aggressor.

It seems clear that its practice is geared to close quarters combat …we have heard over and over “ it is a phone booth” style…and all practitioners clap and puff their sanchin belly in pride.

Now come the k-drills in the sixties designed/modified for sports sparring by Master Uechi.

And as such they have done a wonderful job of getting Uechi students to do well in free fighting tournaments where the going was pretty rough in the days gone by.

Free fighting in the ring has different distancing requirements than those ‘phone booth’ concepts.

Uechi kata also does not program much knuckle punches for what I think should be very obvious reasons as per previous discussions on the ‘punching business’ __

K drills is all about programming straight punches for the most part…thrown and received at longer ranges…what free sparring is mostly all about in dueling fashion.

Do the K drills help for street defensive use? Yes and No, as per our discussions on kinds of ‘imprints’ we must be careful to accept, and for the focus on punching as opposed to kata…a critical distinction.

Why did the ‘founding fathers’ NOT _ insert all those reverse punches in the kata?

[Van Canna]

Fred

I also prefer Bunkai to Kumite but it also is of course, "a cooperative drill"

I think what people miss here is that when you work with a friendly training partner in the dojo, even a free sparring session is really a cooperative drill, because there is no intent to hurt or kill, and there are safety ‘rules’ in effect under supervision …especially in view of the Insurance requirements.

‘Reaction drills’ are also cooperative drills of a different focus _even as they might look more roughshod.

The common denominator in all that we do is the ‘imprinting mechanism’ that is crucial.

Real fights are ‘physical and emotional chaos’ where the conscious brain takes the first bus out of town leaving his cousin behind…the primal brain to deal with the ‘invasion’ _

When you suddenly find yourself in a ‘fight’ _ there will be momentary denial, even as you might find yourself the target of head butting, haymakers, and tackle.

And _ The prevalence of using forceful two handed shoves backwards with the attacker maintaining contact as we stumble backwards followed by eye gouges, punching or slapping, as we are overcome by momentum, is another reality of a street fight.

Suddenly what you have been imprinting, the good and the bad, will emerge without your not being aware of it. Some people who were caught on camera during a defensive situation, have a hard time believing it was really them on the screen in the way they moved or failed to move.

Again, we need to work on drills of any variation…many of us believe we have the best way in all that we do…fine…but some imprinting bypasses those rationalizations.

[Van Canna]

For example here, Bill and I have been having a good natured bantering about ‘imprinting’ what it does, what doesn’t and why.

What I found here might be a good point of further discussion on imprinting…

Bill posted

I don't know about you, but I don't chamber when I engage in sport sparring. So if Kyu and Dan yakusoku kumite were designed to help me with that, well the chambering artifact didn't imprint. Furthermore, I don't see it imprinting with any of my students as well.``

OK…let us look at this clip:

http://fileserver.uechi-ryu.com/videos/ ... attack.wmv

For example here in the surprise drill _ when both deliberately think about a fast strike as the attacker _ there is deliberately no chambering BUT both do chamber as the defender when not `thinking `about it _ even though speed is just as vital.

Seems to me that when consciously thinking of striking quickly there is no chambering _

_ but when left to react _ the imprinted `chambering takes over and Bill and Justin do it.

[Van Canna]

Bill, I also meant to thank you for validating my point that the drills were modified.

Note how they have been simplified and the crucial aspects of positioning have been removed in relation to the renzoku kumite initially designed with a focus on self defense.

Does anyone in our IUKF organization have examples of the old style drill movements? I have the whole Renzoku drill on disc, graciously allowed by Master Toyama to be released to me personally by Breyette sensei. Quite the drill.

But I am still baffled by your assertion that the modern drills are just some exercises worth 1/20th of the whole training picture...and the fact that when people question or criticize the simpler sporting style movements everybody seems to reach for a gun


The real use of our training is the attacks and defenses , and people should not feel slaves to the distance and footwork paradigm argued in the drills.

Remember what the Uechi-Ryu definitions is: 'A phone booth' system' ....

[Bill Glasheen]

That's a lot of typing, Van. For what it's worth... I do have a job. I will need to be concise in how I make my points.

I keep wondering if there is a direction to this discussion. I'm interested in discussing the principles here. And yes, that means understanding the artifacts as well. I believe I was the first to bring up the "a" word, so I'm obviously on board with respect to the limitations of ANY training we do.

First...

Thanks to Gordi Sensei for the passage I quoted from this site. Very nicely done. Since it indicates that Toyama Sensei was the original source of much of the material, then Gordi's direct words certainly hold weight. I think they are helpful.

Second...

Please don't use George's clip out of context. George told me "Do Kyu Kumite number 1 attack fast" and I did it. It was an interesting demonstration of... Kyu kumite number 1. It was a simple, well-defined format done in a less predictable manner so as to investigate a simple concept. It could be no more than the boundaries of the exercise let it be, or the wishes of the cameraman at that snapshot in time.

If you want to argue with the format, talk to George!

But FWIW, I don't recall seeing me doing classic chambering. Pumping, yes. Chambering, no.

Third...

Gordi's description of how the exercises were (for lack of a better expression) "dumbed down" is frankly very helpful. For example I see how most dojos don't work on getting off the line of force, or jamming an attack to shut the offense down. Kyu Kumite 101 very well may be the ichi, ni, san one-dimensional ippon format for many because you're just trying to get them to learn something to work with. I'm not going to hold that against any teacher OR any choreographer. God knows I have enough trouble teaching people Kanshiwa!

However...

I DO work with students on getting off of the line of force (two and three dimensional fighting) and shutting the attacker down once I can get people to walk through the sequence. The spirit of Toyama Sensei's original effort can be investigated by the enterprising student of the art using the pieces he gave to us. Shame on us if we don't even try.

Fourth...

When you are up against a monster of an opponent with plenty of 'padding' at a 250 pounds weight fully adrenalized, with leather jackets...

What happend to Mike Tyson? Where's Ray when we need him?

But seriously... The one percent (or smaller) statistically rare situation is going to give any and everyone a hard time. Period. And if an opening isn't there, you don't bother looking for it. You take the opportunities given to you, and you do your best to improve your odds. That's the best any of us can do. A guarantee in this business or an assertion that such-and-such always works is disingenuous.

To wit... In the situation I cited, my student saw an opening and took it. And it was an opening taught by me from the much-maligned Seisan bunkai "carry." I show some not-so-gentle ways of applying what is quite safely done in the bunkai. For the one anecdote I cited, it worked. That is what it is.

Carry on, my friend.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

As you say Bill...lots of writing...and it is beginning to get tiring to dance in circles...

Carry on, my friend.

[Van Canna]

A few more things now that I have some time on my hands:

It was an interesting demonstration of... Kyu kumite number 1. It was a simple, well-defined format done in a less predictable manner so as to investigate a simple concept. It could be no more than the boundaries of the exercise let it be, or the wishes of the cameraman at that snapshot in time.

No need to argue with George, bill, his idea was good.

It was to be a ‘surprise attack drill’ to be investigated…problem we see is that the way you guys performed…there is no ‘attacking’ and ‘no surprise’ …yup is good for everyone to see…George keeps harping on you guys “ Ha..it didn’t work try again” and again.

You posted

Since it indicates that Toyama Sensei was the original source of much of the material, then Gordi's direct words certainly hold weight. I think they are helpful.

But of course they are helpful if understood. This might help…Here is my conversation with Breyette sensei:

 > How much emphasis was placed by Kanbun/is placed by Toyama sensei on
> prearranged kumite and or bunkai?

Answer

Kanbun Sensei taught no pre-arranged set.

Kanbun Sensei put great emphasis on life-like, realistic bunkai and Jiyu kobo.

SHUU Sensei taught Seisan Bunkai -- it was the only bunkai he
taught.

Kanbun Sensei taught this version to TOYAMA Sensei and the
qualified Wakayama Dojo students.

It became modified in the late 50's for safety
sake …. Toyama Sensei uses the old Wakayama Dojo Seisan bunkai.

I saw a demonstration of how the old Wakayama Dojo Seisan bunkai is practiced, when Breyette sensei came to visit my dojo. You weren’t there.

Now as to kumites….initially Toyama sensei substituted Jiyu Kobo [free attack defense] with Renzoku kumite to take the place of Jiyu Kobo …very difficult and dangerous to practice. Breyette sensei

almost every sort of attack is programmed into the student with Renzoku… non-stop continuous fighting kumite, which was in turn based on
Kanbun Sensei's Jiyu kobo teachings.

It isn't broken into numbers (#1, 2,
3, etc.) but continues non-stop to the end takedown….though outside
the formally-required set __ it is permitted to try alternate responses.

Furthermore, Breyette sensei is honest about such practice…to wit

…The attacks/defenses in Renzoku
Kumite cover pretty much all the karate-style attacks likely to be
encountered.

Read this again

.. Pretty much all the karate-style attacks likely to be
encountered.

I hope this helps.

I saw Breyette sensei demonstrate from Renzoku while at my dojo. You weren’t there.
And I have the entire Renzoku kumite on video, a gift of Toyama sensei and Breyette sensei.

The approach of this particular kumite is more like handling a street fight because it was conceived in Jiyu kobo…what we practice today are the modified versions by Master Uechi for safety sake and for free fighting practice focus…Master Uechi saw a need for __coming up on the horizon.

And you wrote

That's the best any of us can do. A guarantee in this business or an assertion that such-and-such always works is disingenuous.

Yup…and your fixation with ‘guarantees’ you bring up at every corner of a discussion is sophomoric.

I hope this helps.





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