Why women can't hit hard
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Test-only a test
Last edited by Akil Todd Harvey on Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Hope everyone is recovering (tis not only the bird that may get stuffed)
Let's say for argument sake that somebody is pointing a gun at me from the distance of 5 feet. I lose control of my bladder. The BG gets disgusted and disappears. Should I be ashamed of myself?
There is a lot of talk about crapping one's pants when in a threatening situation and I think a lot of it is anecdotal, but is there any value in from a self defense point of view?
I used to read a lot of books about self defense. In some of these books, they actually recommended that the person being attacked let go of their bowels, drool, and basicly do whatever it takes to freak out, disgust, or otherwise make you less interesting or attractive to an attacker. This was especially recommended if you were a woman who thought she might be raped.
In one of the books I read, there was testimony from a famous BG (serial killer/rapist) who had been asked what a woman could have done to get away. He replied that if they had merely fought back a little, they could have gotten away. He had mentioned that there had been a woman who had merely bit his thumb, really hard, and he went and found someone easier to attack. While I would not expect the biting manuever to work on every single BG, BG's do have a tendency to look for easy prey.
Where do these manuevers fit on the force continuum? I feel inadequate defining the "force continuum" while Van is lurking nearby. Van, can we get a link to one of your previously written definitions?
Let's say for argument sake that somebody is pointing a gun at me from the distance of 5 feet. I lose control of my bladder. The BG gets disgusted and disappears. Should I be ashamed of myself?
There is a lot of talk about crapping one's pants when in a threatening situation and I think a lot of it is anecdotal, but is there any value in from a self defense point of view?
I used to read a lot of books about self defense. In some of these books, they actually recommended that the person being attacked let go of their bowels, drool, and basicly do whatever it takes to freak out, disgust, or otherwise make you less interesting or attractive to an attacker. This was especially recommended if you were a woman who thought she might be raped.
In one of the books I read, there was testimony from a famous BG (serial killer/rapist) who had been asked what a woman could have done to get away. He replied that if they had merely fought back a little, they could have gotten away. He had mentioned that there had been a woman who had merely bit his thumb, really hard, and he went and found someone easier to attack. While I would not expect the biting manuever to work on every single BG, BG's do have a tendency to look for easy prey.
Where do these manuevers fit on the force continuum? I feel inadequate defining the "force continuum" while Van is lurking nearby. Van, can we get a link to one of your previously written definitions?
>>The force continuum is proactive. One selects and chooses the means/tools for one's defense. Giving up and giving in are not part of what I would consider the "force continuum."Akil Todd Harvey wrote:Hope everyone is recovering (tis not only the bird that may get stuffed)
Let's say for argument sake that somebody is pointing a gun at me from the distance of 5 feet. I lose control of my bladder. The BG gets disgusted and disappears. Should I be ashamed of myself?
>>Obviously, it does happen for some folks. I don't think it's something to be ashamed of. What would be a shame is to not take it as a learning experience and figure where to go from there.
There is a lot of talk about crapping one's pants when in a threatening situation and I think a lot of it is anecdotal, but is there any value in from a self defense point of view?
>>Losing control of oneself to fear is never, in my opinion, a viable option. You're in the control and mercy of the other. Fear is normal. Learn to control and act in spite of it.
I used to read a lot of books about self defense. In some of these books, they actually recommended that the person being attacked let go of their bowels, drool, and basicly do whatever it takes to freak out, disgust, or otherwise make you less interesting or attractive to an attacker. This was especially recommended if you were a woman who thought she might be raped.
>> An attacker/rapist is being turned on by the psychological need to control and humiliate and perhaps extract perceived revenge. Pooping/peeing just indicates he is succeeding. Maybe he'll just make you roll around in it and get a further kick... The better response is in your quote below.
In one of the books I read, there was testimony from a famous BG (serial killer/rapist) who had been asked what a woman could have done to get away. He replied that if they had merely fought back a little, they could have gotten away. He had mentioned that there had been a woman who had merely bit his thumb, really hard, and he went and found someone easier to attack. While I would not expect the biting manuever to work on every single BG, BG's do have a tendency to look for easy prey.
Where do these manuevers fit on the force continuum? I feel inadequate defining the "force continuum" while Van is lurking nearby. Van, can we get a link to one of your previously written definitions?
david
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jorvik
quote
"I used to read a lot of books about self defense. In some of these books, they actually recommended that the person being attacked let go of their bowels, drool, and basicly do whatever it takes to freak out, disgust, or otherwise make you less interesting or attractive to an attacker. This was especially recommended if you were a woman who thought she might be raped."
Akil
I would say that there can be some value in this type of behaviour. In the case of a woman about to be raped, suppose that it was a gang attack, that might be her only option......not very nice I grant you, but better than the alternative. I often feel that in a situation like that the attacker has a predetermined idea of the outcome and if you upset or change his expectations he may not continue. There was an example in Arica some years ago when A farmer was held up at gunpoint by some guerrilas...they envisaged him getting out of the car and then murdering him...he grabbed the gun off his attacker and proceeded to shoot the guerrillas one by one before driving off ( you can almost hear their stunned responce, "he shouldn't be doing this "
).
I would suggest going to the articles section and reading the interview with Marc Mcyoung .....in the past I tended to dismiss people like him, but with hindsight, I realise he thinks a lot like me or visa versa
The secret is to fit your martial art into reality, not create reality to fit your martial art
"I used to read a lot of books about self defense. In some of these books, they actually recommended that the person being attacked let go of their bowels, drool, and basicly do whatever it takes to freak out, disgust, or otherwise make you less interesting or attractive to an attacker. This was especially recommended if you were a woman who thought she might be raped."
Akil
I would say that there can be some value in this type of behaviour. In the case of a woman about to be raped, suppose that it was a gang attack, that might be her only option......not very nice I grant you, but better than the alternative. I often feel that in a situation like that the attacker has a predetermined idea of the outcome and if you upset or change his expectations he may not continue. There was an example in Arica some years ago when A farmer was held up at gunpoint by some guerrilas...they envisaged him getting out of the car and then murdering him...he grabbed the gun off his attacker and proceeded to shoot the guerrillas one by one before driving off ( you can almost hear their stunned responce, "he shouldn't be doing this "
).I would suggest going to the articles section and reading the interview with Marc Mcyoung .....in the past I tended to dismiss people like him, but with hindsight, I realise he thinks a lot like me or visa versa
The secret is to fit your martial art into reality, not create reality to fit your martial art
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Almost from the moment that I made the above post, I felt like I should edit out a lot of what I said. I do not confuse what I wrote with macho speak.
I would like to hope that every day of my life, if needed, I would be the best super star Uechi black belt that I could be (some may say I have shodanitis).
And just as the only stupid question may be the one not asked, similarly, the only really stupid comment may be the one not said. I am not trying to sell anyone my opinion, but since I, kind of, invited comment, I appreciate your giving your opinion. Chances are, if one person said it, another five to ten were thinking it.
I cant imagine that anyone would expect all that much wisdom to come after the statement, "I read a lot of self defense books", followed by a prescription of what to do if attacked. I doubt seriously that biting every attacker will be the one perfect move that saves a victim's life in 100% of the cases.
Best self defense book ever is "101 sucker punches" by Kurt Craven, 1989. Almost all offensive techniques, likely to be seen on the streets. "When the stakes are life and death-or even just saving face-Anything goes. He who strikes first in a fight often wins, especially if the opponent is caught flat-footed and off guard."
Jorvik, check out Marc Mcyoung web site, http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/I would suggest going to the articles section and reading the interview with Marc Mcyoung
I find it a bit wordy at times (some minor editing maybe is needed), but really good stuff in there. My ideas have definitely been influenced by his.
The force continuum is the force continuum, how you use it may be either proactive or reactive. It would hard to argue that crapping one's pants fits on the force continuum. It is, rather, something like a diversionary tactic rather than an outright assault. Similarly, IMHO, I dont consider this giving up.The force continuum is proactive. One selects and chooses the means/tools for one's defense. Giving up and giving in are not part of what I would consider the "force continuum."
If I was teaching martial arts, self defense, reality training, or whatever fancy name you want to call it to a student, my sister, my mother, my wife, my niece, or any other woman that I may want to impart with some valuable knowledge, I would rather they wet their pants than be raped. I would neither call that "giving up" nor "giving in". I would call that successful strategy and I would want to make sure she was well emotionally as well as physically as the long term affects of such an encounter might be negative, probably not permanent, but I would not want to overlook emtional trauma as a possibility as well as be concerned for the physical well being.
Please do not take this, as a whole, to be a flame, but rather a dialogue where we share ideas.
The title for the thread was and is, "Why Can't women hit hard?" Other ideas are welcome, certainly threads go astray. In my humble capacity, although my ideas may not be the best, I am at the least trying to get them in the right category (compuslsive organizer-you may recognize me-lol).
Where would our nation be today if our forefathers (and foremothers) had not utuilized un-conventional means of fighting the British during the revolutionary war? What were the derogatory terms used to describe the continental army that refused to enter the field of battle in the traditonally honered manner?
Think outside the box
Good point Akil. But this will get lots of arguments from the “purists” stuck in the blocking mentality that karate fosters, like every first move in karate is a block.Best self defense book ever is "101 sucker punches" by Kurt Craven, 1989. Almost all offensive techniques, likely to be seen on the streets. "When the stakes are life and death-or even just saving face-Anything goes. He who strikes first in a fight often wins, especially if the opponent is caught flat-footed and off guard."
This “blocking” mentality will never die, but they will.
Van
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jorvik
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Akil Todd Harvey
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"If I was teaching martial arts, self defense, reality training, or whatever fancy name you want to call it to a student, my sister, my mother, my wife, my niece, or any other woman that I may want to impart with some valuable knowledge, I would rather they wet their pants than be raped. I would neither call that "giving up" nor "giving in". I would call that successful strategy and I would want to make sure she was well emotionally as well as physically as the long term affects of such an encounter might be negative, probably not permanent, but I would not want to overlook emtional trauma as a possibility as well as be concerned for the physical well being. "
ATH,
I have close friends and co-workers who have been raped. I don't wish it on anyone nor would I blame the person for being raped. It's a long hard road to emotional well being from a hell hole dug by some sadist. At the same time, if I were to "coach" someone on self-defense against an attacker, I would say their best chance is to be aggressive in their response. The literature seems to support this. Those who have the mindset, I also advocate carrying an "equalizer." Nevertheless, I support whatever a person feels they need to do in that situation though I may not necessarily agree with the choice. But, it really doesn't matter unless I am there...
david
ATH,
I have close friends and co-workers who have been raped. I don't wish it on anyone nor would I blame the person for being raped. It's a long hard road to emotional well being from a hell hole dug by some sadist. At the same time, if I were to "coach" someone on self-defense against an attacker, I would say their best chance is to be aggressive in their response. The literature seems to support this. Those who have the mindset, I also advocate carrying an "equalizer." Nevertheless, I support whatever a person feels they need to do in that situation though I may not necessarily agree with the choice. But, it really doesn't matter unless I am there...
david
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Akil Todd Harvey
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- Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
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David,
The reason I am posting my ideas here on this forum are so that I can hopefully benefit from the collective experiences of the group. Without the group, all I have is an opinion. For everyone's participation, I am most appreciative.
Our experiences are vital to our understanding, so as far as I have learned from your experiences, I say thanks.
To this day, I have trouble even reading the literature on the subject. What I have gathered from some sources is that many women do as I did in that they did not "respond" to the threat and thus "blame" themselves thereafter. Individuals or society might also blame her, but deep down, blaming herself MAY be the most devastating.
I look at the force continuum as being an important avenue for responding to a situation (one big wide thouroughfare let's say). VSD is a side street of the force continuum. Non-verbal, self defense is another of the side streets (posture, facial expression, etc. can say alot about your preparedness to defend yourself, among other things). Pretending that you are crazy will not work on all people as some people rape crazy people. But then again, if you act crazy for a while or a moent (a fraction of a second or however long the situation requires it), and all of a sudden (surprise) take the aggressive high road we both agree is the more effective method when it is better suited to you. (Sucker punches should be sinomous with surprise)
BG's try to surprise their victims whenever possible. At that moment, the BG is ready to pounce and the victim is still trying to figure out if they are going to respond. By doing a diversionary tactic, you may give yourself the instant or seconds that it may take to talk yourself into that aggressive response.
You want to take away the element of surprise from your attacker and put that element in your corner by making your attacker think that you are not going to resist. And you want your attacker to lower his mental guard, if even a little. Comply with the demands to the extent that you can use your compliance as a diversion.
Now, an aggressive response may surprise the BG if you set him up mentally......try this.....what am I saying to BG with my words and my posture????? I am saying, I am afraid, dont hurt me....subliminal message.....you have the upper hand.....I wont resist........let the BG drop his guard......at the outset BG was on full alert as he started this mess while you were not prepared....now....let's turn this around.....let's give the BG a sense of security for a minute, a second, or an instant, as long as it takes to fool him into thinking there will be no response and then pull the rug out from under this jerk by surprising him.......or just remove his testicles in the most painful method possible, but IMHO, it is easier if you have the element of surprise.
Bravery and courage are sometimes confused with the absence of fear when they actually merely represent taking constructive action despite one's fear. I dont expect not to be afraid, I just hope I will act.
I have no gun and I dont really like bladed weapons, but I like to make whatever I have in my hands my weapon of the day. It could be a book, a bookbag, a rattan stick. IMHO, I feel stronger with a weapon and naked without one. I would rather fight with a tightly wound up newspaper in my hand than fight empty handed (extrended reach, greater leverage, distraction abilitiy, etc.)
ATH's favorite words to use while posting-
may, could, might => indicates uncertainty
ATH's least favorite words while posting
must, should, ought => indicates certainty
Certaintly is not an illusion I can afford, I am not that good, nor am I armed with a firearm.
The reason I am posting my ideas here on this forum are so that I can hopefully benefit from the collective experiences of the group. Without the group, all I have is an opinion. For everyone's participation, I am most appreciative.
Our experiences are vital to our understanding, so as far as I have learned from your experiences, I say thanks.
I dont admit this to many people, but I had a teacher in 9th grade molest me. It was not one of those drag 'em into a dark alley scenarios, but rather one of those, oh so subtle, maneuvers where the BG talks the victim into allowing the activity to take place and even more important, somehow the BG convinces the victim to not report it. I am 100% behind you when you say you dont wish it on anyone.I have close friends and co-workers who have been raped. I don't wish it on anyone
While society, or individuals in society, sometimes blames the victim, in my case, it was not society that blamed me nearly as much as I blamed myself. Why did I not report the first incident? Why did I go back after the first incident? Why did I not report the guy after the 2nd incident? I spent years trying to block these events from my memory.nor would I blame the person for being raped
To this day, I have trouble even reading the literature on the subject. What I have gathered from some sources is that many women do as I did in that they did not "respond" to the threat and thus "blame" themselves thereafter. Individuals or society might also blame her, but deep down, blaming herself MAY be the most devastating.
I agree, 110%. But what if you are outnumbered? Unskilled? Partly skilled? Suffering the symptoms of the flu, or chemotherapy? Facing a weapon at its most effective range? As a martial arts student, I dont see myself holding my head high and proclaiming my success against a BG with my poor bladder control and expecting anyone to pin a medal on me. On the other hand, I have been told, mostly anecdotal evidence, that is has worked on some occasions (drooling is another method-pretending you are retarded, autisitic, crazy, sleep apneatic, whatever works, as you say).I would say their best chance is to be aggressive in their response
I look at the force continuum as being an important avenue for responding to a situation (one big wide thouroughfare let's say). VSD is a side street of the force continuum. Non-verbal, self defense is another of the side streets (posture, facial expression, etc. can say alot about your preparedness to defend yourself, among other things). Pretending that you are crazy will not work on all people as some people rape crazy people. But then again, if you act crazy for a while or a moent (a fraction of a second or however long the situation requires it), and all of a sudden (surprise) take the aggressive high road we both agree is the more effective method when it is better suited to you. (Sucker punches should be sinomous with surprise)
BG's try to surprise their victims whenever possible. At that moment, the BG is ready to pounce and the victim is still trying to figure out if they are going to respond. By doing a diversionary tactic, you may give yourself the instant or seconds that it may take to talk yourself into that aggressive response.
You want to take away the element of surprise from your attacker and put that element in your corner by making your attacker think that you are not going to resist. And you want your attacker to lower his mental guard, if even a little. Comply with the demands to the extent that you can use your compliance as a diversion.
Now, an aggressive response may surprise the BG if you set him up mentally......try this.....what am I saying to BG with my words and my posture????? I am saying, I am afraid, dont hurt me....subliminal message.....you have the upper hand.....I wont resist........let the BG drop his guard......at the outset BG was on full alert as he started this mess while you were not prepared....now....let's turn this around.....let's give the BG a sense of security for a minute, a second, or an instant, as long as it takes to fool him into thinking there will be no response and then pull the rug out from under this jerk by surprising him.......or just remove his testicles in the most painful method possible, but IMHO, it is easier if you have the element of surprise.
You and me, we think alike. Have you beaten me up before? I think you have. Mr. Moi or a different David? If it is you Mr. Moi, I have had the pleasure of being kicked around the dojo by you on at least one occasion.....I have been beaten by some of the best. That may not make me the toughest, but it certainly makes me slightly less intimindated by the BG's of this world.I also advocate carrying an "equalizer."
Bravery and courage are sometimes confused with the absence of fear when they actually merely represent taking constructive action despite one's fear. I dont expect not to be afraid, I just hope I will act.
I have no gun and I dont really like bladed weapons, but I like to make whatever I have in my hands my weapon of the day. It could be a book, a bookbag, a rattan stick. IMHO, I feel stronger with a weapon and naked without one. I would rather fight with a tightly wound up newspaper in my hand than fight empty handed (extrended reach, greater leverage, distraction abilitiy, etc.)
ATH's favorite words to use while posting-
may, could, might => indicates uncertainty
ATH's least favorite words while posting
must, should, ought => indicates certainty
Certaintly is not an illusion I can afford, I am not that good, nor am I armed with a firearm.
ATH,
The spelling of my surname is MOY. I am not sure if we have met or not. Your handle, if is your given name, is not one I am familiar with.
In answer to your question: No -- I have never been beatened up but I don't take this to mean anything except that I have been lucky as I have seen much tougher guys than me beatened or killed.
I am small and grew up in "interesting times." So, I had more than my share of incidents.
To a large degree we are the product of the times and the choices we made to get through them.
david
The spelling of my surname is MOY. I am not sure if we have met or not. Your handle, if is your given name, is not one I am familiar with.
In answer to your question: No -- I have never been beatened up but I don't take this to mean anything except that I have been lucky as I have seen much tougher guys than me beatened or killed.
I am small and grew up in "interesting times." So, I had more than my share of incidents.
To a large degree we are the product of the times and the choices we made to get through them.
david
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jorvik
there is an sufi saying that if you are attacked by a dog you should shout for it's master....therefore if you are in trouble you should ask God.
This reminds me of an incident that happened to me many years ago. I went into a very "black " club with a couple of black friends, we became seperated. I was standing by a pool table when I was surrounded and subjected to verbal abuse and some threats.........when my friends returned they became very intimidating to the people who had done this to me..........and the people all apologised profusely and backed off........apparently my friends were well known as people to not mess around with.
Point that I am trying to make is, in that situation there was no way I could have fought my way out. Fighting is not the only solution for self defence.
Screaming for help.....especially if it works.....is just as valid.
This reminds me of an incident that happened to me many years ago. I went into a very "black " club with a couple of black friends, we became seperated. I was standing by a pool table when I was surrounded and subjected to verbal abuse and some threats.........when my friends returned they became very intimidating to the people who had done this to me..........and the people all apologised profusely and backed off........apparently my friends were well known as people to not mess around with.
Point that I am trying to make is, in that situation there was no way I could have fought my way out. Fighting is not the only solution for self defence.
Screaming for help.....especially if it works.....is just as valid.
No offense, Jorvick, you were lucky. You didn't really know your friends' rep and where they stood in that "network." It just turned out positive. I had situations where it went "south" quick because of "friends." The bottom line is line "know your friends well", including who their "friends" and "enemies" are. This relatedly means knowing what environment one is entering into and whether it is frequented by "friends or (potential) foes."jorvik wrote:there is an sufi saying that if you are attacked by a dog you should shout for it's master....therefore if you are in trouble you should ask God.
This reminds me of an incident that happened to me many years ago. I went into a very "black " club with a couple of black friends, we became seperated. I was standing by a pool table when I was surrounded and subjected to verbal abuse and some threats.........when my friends returned they became very intimidating to the people who had done this to me..........and the people all apologised profusely and backed off........apparently my friends were well known as people to not mess around with.
Point that I am trying to make is, in that situation there was no way I could have fought my way out. Fighting is not the only solution for self defence.
Screaming for help.....especially if it works.....is just as valid.
david
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Sorry to mispell your name Mr Moy,
We have met and sparred each other at least once at the hut (six foot gangly white guy, makes too many feeble attempts at humor while sparring). I think for me it was a challlenge, an honor, and a memorable experience. Not to be merely humble but also realistic, I doubt that you sparring me would have been either memorable or challenging.
I am a product of the Brandies dojo; I started in '85. Sensei Baptista, Sensei Vinny, Tony, Jerry, and a few others whose names I do not recall not only did their best to instill a quality martial arts into me, but also filled me with lore and legend of your sparring prowess.
I am also a product of Sensei Cambell's guidance as well as Sensei Mattson. Credit should be given to Mr. Aceto, Giella (SP?), and again a few others whose names escape me, they all put up with me for longer than they may care to remember.
I generally do not believe in deifying anyone, but all of my Uechi instructors used to refer to your sparring skills as being exemplary, top knotch, etc.
We have met and sparred each other at least once at the hut (six foot gangly white guy, makes too many feeble attempts at humor while sparring). I think for me it was a challlenge, an honor, and a memorable experience. Not to be merely humble but also realistic, I doubt that you sparring me would have been either memorable or challenging.
I am a product of the Brandies dojo; I started in '85. Sensei Baptista, Sensei Vinny, Tony, Jerry, and a few others whose names I do not recall not only did their best to instill a quality martial arts into me, but also filled me with lore and legend of your sparring prowess.
I am also a product of Sensei Cambell's guidance as well as Sensei Mattson. Credit should be given to Mr. Aceto, Giella (SP?), and again a few others whose names escape me, they all put up with me for longer than they may care to remember.
I generally do not believe in deifying anyone, but all of my Uechi instructors used to refer to your sparring skills as being exemplary, top knotch, etc.
I am embellishing this. You did not beat me (we werent keeping score), but you could have, had that been your intention. we were just sparring. Whenever I spar against someone really good, like yourself, I refer to it as that person beat me up. It is an attempt at humor that seems to have failed. My claim to fame is not that I have beaten up all the tough guys on the planet, but rather that, "I have been beaten up by some of the toughest guys on the planet". The corollary to the above (that I generally keep to myself and telll no one) is that, "You (in a general sense, not you Mr. Moy) cant hurt me any more than I have been hurt by some of the worlds best fighters." It is my way of saying that I may lose the fight, but I will walk away with my life and most of my limbs intact.Have you beaten me up before? I think you have.
