Thrust Obsession

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:46 pm

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I still believe that there are tremendous limitations on what we can learn about power without hitting something or working our muscles against a resistance.

True. Thus the reason for a well balanced training regimen to include impact sessions. I don’t know who is telling you that impact training is not necessary.

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I have noted with myself and others that time spent hitting things and doing supplemental training tends to change the emphasis in kata somewhat.

I have had the opposite experience. And one look at the Shinjio’s training methods, as shown on the Okinawan tapes, seems to confirm my observations.

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Some of the strongest and best-trained individuals I know tend not to show their true power in the kata.

Again not my experience. Take a look at Bob Bethoney, Art Rabesa as examples. Great fighters love to hit things in training, Rabesa in particular. Then look at their kata.

And look at the kata of other styles.. Crisp, powerful, gi snapping.

And during the sixties, when competing in the All American tourneys in New York, the strongest fighters were the ones winning kata competition as well, with intense movements, and resounding gi “slapping”_

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And after all, what does it mean when there's nothing (no true target) at the end of execution?

I think there much to it. Mostly it has to do with programming the “crack of the whip” as in the Yawarakasa thread as per Toyama sensei’s teachings.

How would you learn to use a bullwhip effectively on target if you don’t practice the “cracking” in empty air?

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:26 pm

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I don’t know who is telling you that impact training is not necessary.

Neither do I!

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during the sixties, when competing in the All American tourneys in New York...

Not fair; I'm not that old.

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...the strongest fighters were the ones winning kata competition as well

Hmmm... More often than not, I see "specialists" that do better in one than in the other. I could name names... But then there are some that can do it all.

What about full contact specialists, or those that spend time training for UFC? Where does their power development come from? What do their kata (if they perform kata at all) look like? I do know what "shadow boxing" looks like - the closest thing to kata that boxers do. Very dynamic, yes, but mostly very fluid. That phase of their training serves a purpose, and other phases serve theirs.

Note I am not necessarily negating any one way of doing things. My premise was that those who do kata alone tend to need to inject all aspects of their training into that, whereas those that have a balanced cross training regimen tend to have a unique emphasis with each element.

Oh and one other thing... Bodybuilding is the classic example of how judges can screw up a standard. We have the products of modern pharmacology and plastic surgery today in that sport because the judges rewarded it. We have the freakish, gymnastic kata performances on the open style martial arts tournaments because the judges are enamored by it. Often participants reflect what judges want. That in itself doesn't necessarily validate a particular style of practice. His yardstick may measure differently from her meter stick. And then there are the French judges...

Sigh...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

How would you learn to use a bullwhip effectively on target if you don’t practice the “cracking” in empty air?

What makes you think you couldn't? Then again, that way of generating energy can be practiced without the target - particularly once you got the hang of it with target. I like that style of energy generation. This example serves your point well.

But then again, there are other ways to hit a bag or victim. And there are other ways to use a whip!

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 3:49 am

Bill,

We have been down this path before. Your opinions have much merit and I respect them, but we differ in beliefs.. so be it. To each his own.

There are many ways to develop power, and each discipline has its own unique ways of getting there.

But when it comes to Uechi Karate,I am partial to the following from the Toyama group:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In karate, it is easy to make movements and perform a kata mechanically
without feeling or indication of understanding the meaning of the motions.

However, the spirit -- the complete performance of each technique
with Yawarakasa (proper softness), Binkansa (timing), and Chikarazuyosa
(correct application of hard elements) -- depends on the performer's
complete understanding of the meanings of all the techniques and their
relationship to stance, balance, direction, and logical sequence in the
kata.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

* Note that this is in relation to kata performance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Minchin chuuryuu keena utain.

Sharp eyes and sharp movement with softness.
This is a phrase Kanbun Sensei used to describe a proper performance.

The
words are Chinese rendered into Japanese pronunciation. They embody the
three concepts of training, being softness or relaxation (Yawarakasa),
awareness or alacrity effecting timing (Binkansa), and hardness of impact
(Chikarazuyosa).

Whether describing a single technique, an entire kata or bunkai, or a
confrontation, this was perhaps UECHI Kanbun Sensei's greatest karate
training philosophy.

** <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Whether describing a single technique, an entire kata or bunkai, or a
confrontation, this was perhaps UECHI Kanbun Sensei's greatest karate
training philosophy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Worth repeating.

**

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Think of a tiger about to fight. We say "it is
tensed to spring" but actually it is quite relaxed.

For the tiger, muscles
do not work against muscles. The beast positions carefully, sometimes sways
a bit side to side as it crouches, prepares for the spring -- but it's never
tensed as we think of in terms of "dynamic tension"!

If it were, it wouldn't
be able to move -- imagine that mountain of powerful steel muscles and
rock-hard bone, frozen and unable to move because of intense internal
conflict between muscles, pulling against each other.

Watch a cat. One of our best teachers. It is soft but not weak. It
focuses and crouches or positions for the mouse-catch, but does not tense
in rock-hardness before the spring.

All moves are relaxed and fully
efficient. No waste of muscle tension by opposing itself internally.

Only
the muscles that NEED to move do so.

Soft, then great natural timing for the relaxed and uninhibited
lightning-fast strike, then hardness only in the sinking of the claws and
ripping of flesh, then soft again. Softness, timing, power at the end.

Just like UechiRyu...

For the cats (great and small), a natural definition of "tense" could well
be "relative relaxation of all muscles while selecting those for immediate
and explosive use, without extra muscular inhibition of the necessary
motion.”

On an advanced level, it means this for the great fighters, too.

With practice, this "relaxation and selection" can take place in a fraction
of a second, and should accompany the sudden awareness of a situation.

All is relaxed and the muscles that DO need
to move do so EXPLOSIVELY. The rest are "soft". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is where my interest lies. We have much to thank Master Toyama for bringing these notions to our attention.

For the most part, practitioners have been in the dark ages for the major portion of their Uechi life with many teachers having no idea how to teach power concepts, and most of them still don’t.

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 5:32 am

Good to see you here, Van. You know we keep bumping into each other a bit here and there, but I view the dialogue as very healthy - a wonderful process of discovery. We research types crave the controversy and confusion.

I waited a bit here before posting. You see, there's quite a bit of irony in what you post, from my personal perspective. I'll attempt to share the sentiments.

Circa 1982, I was testing for my nidan in New York. David Finkelstein's dojo at the time was a room with a rug surface that was one floor above a restaurant. The aroma of the room was something inbetween human body odor and fried something-or-other. Anyhow I was testing with Kenny Elter and Sam Finnerman (I believe), who were going for sandan. The judges were David, George Mattson (in for a visit) and Joan Neide (now Neide-Knox). Dave Machine was a viewing participant.

The Bill Glasheen back then was a bit different from what you see now. I had two years of a hard Japanese style, and my Uechi karate showed it. My former instructor, Hiroshi Hamada, was obsessed with power in workouts and speed when sparring. He underemphasized kata. Well lets just say that my karate showed the mark of another author. I did my kata and hojoundo one way. Every technique was about maximum power. I was young and wiry, and I had more energy than I knew what to do with. And then there was my sparring. When I practiced with Hamada sensei, we spent AT LEAST a half hour every class sparring. It looked very different from my kata. But make no mistake about it - two years of extreme emphasis on sparring gave me an ability to spar. One could not argue with my results in the ring.

When it was all over with, I got my promotion. But then there was the commentary. David and George went on and on about the excessive power in my thrusts. They wondered whether or not my joints were going to be able to take it for much longer. Dave Machine, a fine martial artist in his own right, privately told Dave Finkelstein something to the effect of "What a waste, he has so much talent..." Nobody argued with what I was able to do with my opponent in the final sparring session; they were only ticked at Kenny for not doing better.

And then we went out for celebration afterwards.

Meanwhile, Joan was quietly fuming. She had nothing to say during the test. But when I was out of earshot of others, she said something to the effect that my way of doing things was exactly the way Master Shinjo (Seiyu) taught it and the way Kiyohide did it. In effect she told me to keep it up.

But you know what? David and George were right about one thing. My kata and my sparring were very different. At the same time, I was learning to box at the Charlottesville Boxing Club, and the coach there saw this similar dichotomy between "the wooden karate guy" and the man in the ring.

Fast forward to the Okinawan Rengokai celebration in Atlanta, August, 2001. I was fresh off my nanadan test (you were there, Van). We had some wonderful workouts with Masters Tomoyose and Nakahodo and Thompson and Mattson and Mattson and Durkin and others. I had an opportunity to do a kata for Walter Mattson. Funny you should talk about him... Walter watched me do a kata - I think sanchin. Then he pulled me aside and talked to me about lightening up a bit. You heard it right, Van. And I don't even look like the kid 20 years earlier. Then Walter said "This is the kind of kata that Master Takara would have me do." He performed a sanchin that was relaxed, fluid, and efficient. In fact...it looked a whole lot like the kind of paradigm that I believe Master Tomoyose teaches and preaches. And of course that would include a few others in his company.

And I have NEVER questioned Walter's sparring ability. I've known and admired him for quite some time, although not close to him. The man gets it done in the ring.

So what's the moral of the story, other than the fact that I (and most of us) will always remain a student of my art? I don't know, but I don't lie awake at night worrying about it. The controversy and ambiguity just makes me want to dig in deeper and see where else I can go with it.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:36 pm

Thank you, Van.

There is much to agree upon in these statements.

- Bill

NEB · Post by **NEB** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:59 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Van Canna:
Bill,

For the most part, practitioners have been in the dark ages for the major portion of their Uechi life with many teachers having no idea how to teach power concepts, and most of them still don’t.

I've been following this thread, and its very interesting. A question:
Which teachers (here in the U.S.) would you recommend? Who out there (especially on the west coast) is known for imparting true and correct power developement to their students?

This information could be helpful for anyone, even for those outside of the Uechi style.

Lastly, I have heard quite a bit on van Sensei's TC principle, and would be curious to learn more of it. I have only heard of seminars occurring in the east, but am wondering if anythng is held out here on the coast.

thanks,

N.E.B.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:17 pm

NEB

Van is Van, and has his own trademark way of doing things. It involves some fundamental principles seen in a number of different martial arts, but also combined with breathing techniques seen in others.

The whip-like approach can be seen in Uechi ryu in students of the Nakamatsu line. I've been exposed to and experimented with it from Frank Gorman and Bob Kaiser on the east coast.

Another entirely different method of power generation - one much closer to my own hard-style Japanese roots - comes from the Kenyukai line of Uechi ryu (the Shinjo family school). I've had the good fortune to meet Shinjo Kiyohide on several occasions, and am actually mistakenly referred to as a Kenyukai-line student in a picture in Alan Dollar's Secrets of Uechi Ryu Karate. Rik Lostrito is a well known practitioner in my neck of the woods (DC area) and Alan Dollar can be found on the west coast. There are also well-known Kenyukai schools in places like Texas and Missouri.

The concepts are not new. They are practiced in other sports such as baseball and Olympic weightlifting. It's just a matter of understanding the principles and applying them.

- Bill