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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:

I (like you) am not one to receive a criticism I don't agree with and not reply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't have it any other way... contrary to the way it may seem with our disagreements sometimes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Scoundrel*: "a disreputable person; rascal"

I didn't SAY that or IMPLY it, despite charges to the contrary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough. I guess the shoe just fit (at least subconciously), so I was protesting having to wear it.

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That's less an opinion than a restatement of what you wrote.

Also, true.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fascist*: (snippage)
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(my emphasis added)

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Now THAT's a blatant mischaracterization of Ian if I EVER read one.

Perhaps a bit harsh sounding, but let's take a look...

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Over regulate you... by putting a sign or lights up to prevent you from rolling your car?

With stiff penalties (such as speeding and other moving violation fines... and now including being arrested, jailed and bailed, in front of your kids on your own street travelling slowly, for not wearing your seatbelt...) It's just a matter of opinion, but in my opinion, that's autocratic control.

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Goodness, Panther, would you be upset if I fought for your water to be clean / flouridated (back when it wasn't)

No... I fight for my water to be clean as well. (flouridation is a different subject that is full of debate in itself, so I'll avoid it, if that's OK...) But for you or me to fight for our environment (drinking water, air, land, etc.) to be clean is different from having the government take complete autocratic control over manufacturing plants. (which I disagree with...)

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or sent you a brochure on vaccinations

No... But, again, that's different from having the government mandate (autocratic control) those vaccinations for me and/or my children. (which I disagree with...)

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or asked about your diet at the doctor's office?

As my MD, I would welcome your desire to help me live a more healthful life by understanding my diet and exercise level... and making some suggestions which I can chose to ignore. Where I would/do have a problem is when it becomes regulated by legislative, judicial, bureaucratic or autocratic fiat (control). (which I disagree with... and also disagree with people, such as MDs, getting involved in other areas that they only think they know about... such as gun ownership.)

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Or encouraged the right decision about smoking (yes, that's a judgment of mine),

I agree with encouraging people to quit smoking... I just don't agree with forcing them to quit through autocratic control.

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by levying taxes to discourage it

Sorry... That's a form of governmental (autocratic) control. I don't agree with "sin" taxes.

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AND help pay for the care they will need later which will otherwise come out of MY pocket?

Maybe, maybe not... (And yes, I realize that there is a huge amount of care given to the uninsured and underinsured, but I have plenty of counter-examples on how the system abuses people who even have insurance, but aren't of the desired "PC" background to get the double-secret-super-state-paid-for care... )

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Let me ask you this... is what *I* propose, initiating efforts to reduce situations we know will cause unneeded deaths or illness, incompatible with holding individuals responsible?

Fair enough question.

The answer to the question directly: Probably not.

The answer to the question knowing other positions/proposals/suggestions/responses: Whether correct or not, I got that impression.

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Ok, I admit, that was rhetorical.

Oops, guess you didn't want an answer!



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited May 10, 2001).]

Stop the presses, it sounds like Ian and Panther actually agree on a few issues.

Minor clarifications:

I haven't supported arrest for not wearing your seatbelt. I do support penalizing speeders and other moving ... violators (?)because they risk my neck too. Some speed limits are obviously just pointless and not saftey limits, and these tick me off. And few things upset me more than parents willing to kill their own kids by stacking them in the back of the pickup at 75mph. Fine their butts off, if they need to think with their wallet and not their hearts or brains. There was NO penalty involved with my curve solutions, just more warning.

I don't support autocratic control over manufacturing plants. I do think that forcing people to drink clean water is as dictatorial as anything else we've discussed; the consistent thing for Panther to do is fight to give us all the option to make the bad decision of drinking E Coli (I would not give them this option).

I'm all for sin taxes on cigs. Users are frequently teens who think they're invicible. In one survey 7% said they'd be smoking in 5 years; followup showed 70% were. That's not a free decision, that's walking into addiction not understanding the real risk, and if there's a financial disincentive to smoke, it'll save them $ and health and all of us $ in the long run (well, and health too, public smoking kills many of us). It's little different to me than removing well-marked landmines from public paths. We all lose the freedom to choose to step on them... but what does this buy us in relation to the fact that people are frequently stupid (or drunk, not paying attention etc) and we can make the world a little safer for them. [They can still smoke if they choose, and they put money towards the illnesses they'll cause themselves.]

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited May 10, 2001).]

Laird,

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When I was young ...I owned an english car and it did ******!

I said TOOLS! A close friend of mine owns a famous English car and has a habit of frequently muttering: "Give an Englishman a piece of steel and he'll do something stupid with it." [that's HIS saying, not mine]

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I always thought the excess consumption of great beer in Nova Scotia was the cause

That may be part of the reason, but California is about to be sucked into the sea by a humungous whirlpool detected earlier today right off the coast of the likes [Yikes!] never seen before.

I started writing what became the original post quite a while back. It was used as part of my weekly radio broadcast. As always with these little rants, I have a number of people that I give drafts to for feedback and suggestions. Sooooo... I came across something that disturbed me and called one of the people that gives me feedback to find that even though my concept was originally mine, there are too many phrases and concepts that were suggested (which I used) that came from someone else. That wasn't my intent and as a (former) musician, I take plagarism seriously.

My apologies. And there should be due credit given to the originator, whoever that is.

In the future, those that I ask for feedback and comment will understand that suggesting a different phrasing, wording or concept needs to be original. Thanks for your understanding. (It doesn't change the ideas, just where some of the credit belongs. )