"Worthless" kumite?

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

Thankfully Jimmy has you to voice his opinions.

You articulated this very well. I used to speak a lot about "automatic pilot" training in Uechi. "All is in sanchin. Just do 1000 more, and you will develop all the fighting skills you need." Yes but... it isn't going to come via divine inspiration.

What's really great here is the explosive growth of understanding that has occurred in the past generation. A few greats knew a little of this and a little of that, but never has so much depth of knowledge occurred to so many in such a short period of time.

The challenge for this generation is not to leave these lessons scattered amongst those communicating on the seminar circuits and selling their wares. Instead, it would be nice to step back every once in a while and see what we could do to improve the teaching/learning and evaluation processes. Knowing what I know about what's left to impart to the students, I can see that the task is daunting.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Some interesting information from Okinawa.


>Kanbun used the term "Pangainoon" to describe the manner of the fighting,
not as a name for the style. As I understand it, the "interview" may have
taken place in the '30's but was later penned by a student of Mabuni,
according to his memories, years after the interview took At the time of the visit, the student was relatively new and inexperienced.

I would question the absolute accuracy of the reporting, then the
translation, and finally the interpretation of the translation that resulted
in the above quotes.

In the case of the Kyohon, we have Kanei Sensei's own
direct words, many quotes he gives from his father, and the kanji in which
they were written. All the quotes from both Kanbun and Kanei Sensei are
verified by Toyama Sensei, and no one alive today was closer to both gents.

"Fast" vs "timing" again. So -- what is "fast"? Again, we would need to see the original
pre-WW2 kanji to know what was actually stated in the interview.

"Extremely
quick" might well have been written in Kanji as "extremely well-timed",
which would fit better with the translation of "ch'uan fa" as being "task
master" or the like.

A misinterpretation can be extremely subtle but you can see how it can make
a big difference in the meaning!<

[gmattson]

Seems to me I remember during a lengthy interview in China, with Marty Dow translating, Chinese scholars disputed the term "pangainoon" as a style. I believe they felt the word represented an important characteristic of the movements Kanbun learned.

If memory serves me. . . during my early training with Tomoyose, he related a story how Chojun Miyagi named GoJuRyu:

"During his trip to Japan where he was demonstrating his karate, he was asked the name of the system. He (according to Tomoyose) hadn't thought about it before and answered 'What I do is hard-soft'!" The name stuck.

The Japanese, like Westerners, are very conscious of 'schools", "styles" and the credentials of teachers, regardless of subject matter. I suspect that teachers of the martial arts in old Okinawa, were less concerned with these historical labels.

We should probably research the settings and timeframe in which Kanbun returned from China and began teaching his "fast timing Chinese movements" as part of interpreting his words a century later. What did he teach his students? Did he teach all students the same thing? Did he really believe what he was teaching to individuals was the same thing we (modern students of the art) believe we are studying?

Just a few thoughts on the subject which may add a bit of perspective to the discussion.

[Bill Glasheen]

More from the Dragon Times interview from the 1930s.

My student and I were traveling on business. On the last day, we visited Higashi Kawagan-machi in Wakayama city. On the way there the first thing I noticed was a signboard on the left. It read, Pangainun-ryu Toudi Master; Uechi Kanbun, Instructor.

At the age of 20, Uechi had traveled to China and trained in pure Chinese style chu’an-fa for more than 13 years and returned an expert. I was impressed by the sign board which was in the Chinese style.

I will leave those words "as is." They imply quite a bit.

Other points... To start with, I am not a historian, nor do I play one on TV. However I've written enough in peer-reviewed journals to appreciate some of the concepts.

Along with all the valid points Van made as to historical references, I'd like to add the following.

First... Takamiyagi Shigeru was the author of Uechi Kanei's book. Just ask Gordi or Allan. Just look at the nature of the (Japanese) text. It's sort of like a sports athlete writing a book. What really happens is a writer interviews someone, and then writes the book for them.

Second... Okinawan history - particularly the oral tradition - has its problems. This has been discussed in detail in Journal of Asian Martial Arts (a peer-reviewed journal, by the way). I don't have the reference in front of me now, but could get it if anyone is interested.

Third... Good historians look to multiple sources to validate points in history. What we have today is two (possibly more...) people who have studied for some reasonable time with Uechi Kanbun and/or his earliest student(s). The proper way to go about documenting the history would be to separately interview, say, Toyama sensei and then Tomoyose sensei. Each has a unique perspective. Put the two (or more) together, and you begin to create a collage that mirrors real history (to some extent). Allow them to get together to write a book (by committee), and you can kiss the accuracy piece goodbye.

And finally... Folks have gone back to the place where Uechi Kanbun (allegedly) studied. We have pictures of some of the "toys" he used. But we have nobody practicing Uechi-style sanchin, much less Uechi style seisan or sanseiryu. So there's nothing to support that what Uechi Kanbun brought back is a good representation of exactly what he was taught. The best we have is a number of different renditions (which agree to a reasonable extent) of what Uechi Kanbun taught when he came back. And then we have some forms being practiced in the Fuzhou area that have techniques that look like they come from Uechi's system. That's it.

So the way things are today, historians are free to speculate on various scenarios, and it would be difficult to refute any number of them.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

By the way... I would love to see someone write a History of Uechi Ryu or book about the style and its practitioners in a format similar to books written by Steven Ambrose. (D-Day, Undaunted Courage, etc.), or any number of authors who have written about The Civil War. Well documented, with every other line referenced. Lots of primary source material.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Bill,

There is lots more to this discussion, but I have no interest in getting into it. Suggest you write to Gordi Breyette directly.

[Rick Wilson]

Pangainuun:

“I was impressed by the sign board which was in the Chinese style.”

While Japanese uses Chinese Characters to write, it is not the same language as Chinese and the writings are often meaningless to those of the other country as is evidenced by the question asking what the name meant.

I would be very interested to know if the characters used to write the name “in the Chinese style” still exists. It seems to me this might help tracking down at least some form of translation.

[Guest]

Looking forward to meeting you one day soon.

And I you George! I've been hearing about you since the late Seventies. Jimmy always spoke fondly of his Sensei. About time I got off my posterior and came to Boston and met you. Won't happen this year. But I'm working on a 3 and 5 year business plan and the eighteen-month calandar. Schedule has me missing in action for most of August 2004.
I'm planning on making it to camp then. I'm looking forward to it!

Laird

You are good people; not to worry.

- Bill

Thanks Bill, nice of you to say so. Actually most people I've met here have been fine folk. The ones who were not have been dealt with by our fine team of moderators.

Laird,

Don’t be so hard on yourself. These forums are laden with emotional traps for the passionate at heart, no one is immune.

Hey Van, it's cool! I'll always post from my heart and I'll ruffle some feathers from time to time. It's my nature to be blunt and direct. I'm not being too hard on myself; I despise rude judgmental people. Yet I've judged other folks to some degree and have been kind of rude with some of my adjectives. Now I was not intending to, but the bottom line was some folks felt insulted. I ended up with some pissed off folks on my hands.

It's hard to get your point across when everyone is pissed. If I can get my point across with out stepping on everyone's toes; people just might think about what I have posted instead of reacting to what I have posted. I'm down on myself for not considering the feelings of others Van. I'm a more effective communicator than this.

You have your own beliefs as to training and you should be respected for it just like any other. Also let us not forget that many of your objections to prearranged work come from Maloney sensei’s influence, your original sensei.

I have not changed my feelings to the prearranged drills. The seeds Sensei Maloney planted may have grown, but they have not fallen far from the tree. And my new Sensei, is also is not a fan of these exercises Van. I can not buy into these drills, but I have been lucky enough to find a very progressive teacher who sees the drills the same way you and your good friend do.

Today he called me and we talked about this for an hour. I told him he should write a post on it, but given the current state of affairs here, he chuckled and declined.

I can almost hear him , he probably was tempted just to watch the sparks fly, but he's no fool, he knows you don't need to stir a fire that’s already hot.(wish I could learn to be so wise)

BTW. I say him on TV a few weeks back. The national film Board did a story on Annie Mae, it was well done, lots of Jimmy interviews as well. I taped it I'll send a copy if you'd like.

Basically he agreed with me that prearranged work is a good early tool to ingrain a beginner with basic defense motion and interception, good for conditioning and confidence to deal with all out shots, but very marginal in developing street defense reactions, explosive weaponry, opponent-engaging mindset and fluid footwork due to its “Frankenstein’s” robotic character.

I agree as well.

I think the thing that I have the most discomfort with is the rhythm. Your turn my turn, the agreement. Fights are dis agreements, folks don't take turns they flurry , throw, 3, 8,10 shots in a row. The other gut just agrees to eat them. The pre arranged work seems to have this one shot one kill pause asses the damage mentality. I believe al those pauses give the other guy a change to get back in the fight. I'd like to see us create some drills that finished the job without giving the EBG his turn. In other words I'd like to see us create drills that programmed nonstop multiple strikes in the response. The way I see it these drills teach us to disengage before we have started. How can your develop the mindset to engage when your always doing the opposite.

The second thing I dislike about our present drills is they seem to work in predominantly one range. They seem to spend a lot of time maintaining the distance. Possibly if one is focussing a great deal effort on these drills they might want to consider developing a few that move the defender through a few ranges in dealing with the attack. If your only comfortable and competent in one distance what happens when your advisory forces you to fight to close, or two far away.

Now it's been pointed out that not everyone is looking for the same thing in his or her training. That’s cool. And if they are happy to do these exercises , well good on them. To train anything is good. May people are fond of these drills and see many pro's to training them. But if you're training for self defense then I'd suggest these drills might fall a bit short. If you believe that most fights go to the ground then you believe your assailant will close and take you to the ground. In other words the attack will move through several ranges. If the bulk of your training is spent at greater than arms length then you may be in a world of hurt when your attackers starts the attack from distance you have never trained.

More another night, I'm bagged

Laird

[Rick Wilson]

George:

As always you make some very good points and I had a response prepared to a few of them, but thought perhaps it was leading into touchier territory.

Maybe next time I make camp we can talk over breakfast again.

And just so Laird knows this, let me say publicly, that I am proud to have him as part of my school.

[gmattson]

---George:

As always you make some very good points and I had a response prepared to a few of them, but thought perhaps it was leading into touchier territory.

Maybe next time I make camp we can talk over breakfast again.

Rick: You always make valid, clear and objective points. You don't "preach" when discussion a topic. How can I find something you say as "touchy"?

I actually agree with everything you say and really don't find my teaching methods to vary that much from yours.

There are too many variables involved in fighting to make general comments regarding "the best" methods of training.

What works for one student fails miserably for another. What works in the dojo fails in the street. I stand by my statement (in another post) that an honest survey of all students in all schools of fighting/self defense/ eclectic fighting methods etc. will probably show that an equal percentage of students getting into fights: (BTW, I'm referring to professional schools having 50+ students/clients)

1. get killed
2. get beat up (lose the fight)
3. win the fight. (beat up their opponent)
4. talk their way out of the conflict. (With or without their pride intact)

Why you might ask. . . After all, shouldn't the students in the latest "kickass" style of fighting be turning out better survivalist than Uncle Joes' "feelgood" boutique dojo?

If anyone would like to discuss this topic, I'd be happy to explain my position.

[Bill Glasheen]

It's true that almost all arguments are based on expert opinion at best.

A good many arguments are just plain MARKETING. I've been a scientist in or around business most of my life. I understand the difference between good evidence and what a company or advocate will say (or write) to sell a product. In my work, I see what happens when the real science gets "spun" to tell the truth that vendors want told. It ain't pretty.

Don't get me wrong. A guy's got to make a living. There's a lot of good stuff out there, and a lot of good teachers out there. There's a lot of room for improvement. I keep my ears open, and I challenge those who think things can be better to put up or...because we all would benefit if they did.

One more thing... I got to thinking about all the movers and shakers in the world, and where they come from. Bruce Lee had Yip Man as an instructor. You see Yip's hand all over "Bruce's" work. That's not a bad thing. Bruce will moan about classical mess, but he's a product of it.

I could go on...

Keep rockin' the boat, guys, because we can never be satisfied with "good enough." And we'll keep you honest.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

I'll be first in line to buy Gordi's book.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Laird

Allow me, if I may, to work with some of your statements. They help me a bit.

The pre arranged work seems to have this one shot one kill pause asses the damage mentality.

Funny...I feel like you are preaching to the choir here.

Don't you think a good number of folks preach fighting this way, and practice their kata this way?

Have you watched various folks do kata at an advanced test? Watch the flow of power from movement to movement, and step to movement - or total lack of it altogether. Those that teach differently believe that each shot should finish someone off, because that's the way you should do it. Every move has a start, middle, and explosive end. There is a pause to regroup from this massive effort. Then you step to the new position, and start again. In all seriousness, who am I to argue? That's their approach.

So why object to it when you see it in prearranged kumite - unless you too don't like seeing it in kata? As you practice, so will you do...

Is this the fault of the prearranged kumite per se?

I will tell you that I like the bunkai and yakusoku kumite of Shorei Kai Goju much better. Virtually every form had a nonstop bunkai. You didn't stop until the final blow. Every yakusoku kumite was less about a play fight, and more deliberately a drill - period. No more, and no less.

The Goju instructional forms (Fukyu, Gekisai, Gekiha, Kakuha) lended themselves to this format very nicely. The classical forms required a total reorganization. Uechi forms pretty much fall in the latter category. Any bunkai designed that way would require a total choreographical rework. But these ditties are fun to do.

I believe al those pauses give the other guy a change to get back in the fight.

Hmm... No wonder you hate the things.

I always saw them as pauses in a drill, and nothing more. Pedagogical artifacts.

The second thing I dislike about our present drills is they seem to work in predominantly one range.

No argument. Please join our discussion.

The Good and the Bad of Prearranged Kumites

I'd like to see us create drills that programmed nonstop multiple strikes in the response.

It exists. It's called kyu kumite.

Laird, you lack imagination. (gentle teasing...) The strike at the end of each sequence - in my book - is merely a suggestion. You (the user) are supposed to take it from there. If we showed you ten strikes to do after you got control of an aggressor (which is the whole goal of kyu kumite in the first place...), then the choreographer would be accused of allowing for no sponteneity and creativity in the attack response sequence. No. Absolutely not. I say leave the bloody skeleton exactly as it is. After each sequence when you get control of the person's center (which is what you are supposed to do before hitting them) and whack 'em, DON'T STOP. Keep hitting until they are on the ground and they stop wiggling. Better yet, don't do it the same every time.

Come watch Mike Murphy show you his Uechi gone jiu-jitsu kyu kumite some time. This is the way this exercise is supposed to be done after white belt.

And speaking of grappling...

If you believe that most fights go to the ground...

That's the grappler's creed. Don't you know?

BTW, where's the data?

Also, don't let a fight against more than one go to the ground. Found that out the hard way in some training exercises... That's been taught in combat training for generations. There are even branches of combat jiujitsu that eschew going to the ground.

Nevertheless, we can't keep our striker heads in a hole-in-the-ground. Too bad Uechi yakusoku kumite were designed by folks that only understood striking.

if you're training for self defense then I'd suggest these drills might fall a bit short

Nobody's arguing.

You can't build a house with just a hammer. You can't build a house without one.

Repeat the above...

- Bill

[Guest]

And just so Laird knows this, let me say publicly, that I am proud to have him as part of my school.

Hey Rick, Your blowing me away! I feel blessed that you agreed to let me train with you and your fine students. The oppourtunity to work with a group such as yours is a rare thing. You guys rock! I'm looking forward to kata with you, I expect I will learn much with you.

P.S. tell Louie the ribs are like 80%, I'll be up north soon and I'm looking forward to pinning his sorry ass to the mat.

I'm hoping to drag the frenchman with me this next trip. (he doesn't wear a cup! My gift to Louie.)

I'll give ya a shout Rick but looks like I'll get up there before July.

Van, Bill, More later, working to hard need to get a few hours sleep,

Laird

[Rick Wilson]

George:

You are one of; if not the most open Seniors of a style or association I have ever met.

This is clearly evidenced by your openness on the forums you host. However, the clearest evidence is just sitting and talking to you.

There probably are no tricky areas for you when they are approached properly.