Abusing Uechi-ryu

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

You've set up a situation that allows me to articulate thoughts I've been wanting to express for some time. You wrote...

Even if, as you and Tomoyose sensei said, we wasted a lifetime training our spear hand etc., there is still lots of doubt in my mind, according to research by Siddle, that we would be able to use such weapons under stress, and to hit the so called “pressure points”.

While punches to the face should be discouraged by a good sensei, because of the likely possibility of ending up with a broken hand or blood poisoning, when it comes to the rib cage, a good chest caving punch is king, because it is all gross motor and will work wonders, along with knees and elbows, especially the type used by Muay Thai fighters, that are much more superior to what we think we have in Uechi.

Allow me, if I may, to play devil's advocate to these comments. And this is not for sport; I am passionate about the veracity of my beliefs.

First... One does not "waste time" training one's fingers and toes. On the contrary, I think folks waste time practicing a style like Uechi Ryu and then never taking the time to follow through and work the hands and feet like Uechi Kanbun, his peers, his students (like Tomoyose senior and junior) and teachers did. Frankly I want to tell the good lot of folks to leave Uechi and practice Goju; what they do is no different. They get no advantage from the Uechi view of sanchin.

Second... I see nothing in Muay Thai that isn't already in Uechi Ryu. No Muay Thai boxer did anything in a match that I didn't already see in my Uechi Ryu; we have all that and then some. It's only an issue of emphasis.

Third... Bruce Siddle is also the guy that spent several days in a Thompson Island Uechi camp teaching PPCT. You know... that pressure point stuff that Jimmy Malone also teaches thanks to Bruce. And what does Bruce like to use? A tip of thumb strike. If you look at what he uses and teaches, you will realize it's Uechi - for all practical purposes.

So what's the discrepancy here? It's several issues. First, there is the force continuum. Not every self defense situation requires that we cave someone's chest in with a punch. For example, verbal defense skills are an important part of training for anyone from a soldier to a law officer to a common citizen. Even U.S. Marines train techniques that require small motor coordination. Second, Siddle spent a good deal of his writing discussing the idea of operating in an ideal physiologic "zone" where all the bad things associated with the "dump" (to use the vernacular) don't happen. LOT'S written about this... Good stuff. Darren Laur's page summarizes a good deal of it.

I do it all. I train it all. And yes, I have used things like shokens and boshikens in low-level self defense situations.

Finally... These weapons aren't just about thrusting or striking. They are also about grabbing. There is absolutely no match I know of on this martial earth for a Uechika with well-trained hands. Add in some grappling skills and you've got yourself a complete warrior.

Rant off... Thanks for the indulgence.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Bill,

I meant to say, “spent” instead of “wasted”…

Second... I see nothing in Muay Thai that isn't already in Uechi Ryu. No Muay Thai boxer did anything in a match that I didn't already see in my Uechi Ryu; we have all that and then some. It's only an issue of emphasis .

Disagree. I watched good Muay Thai teachers in action, both here and in Italy, where Muay Thai is very popular, and they have methods of employing knee strikes and elbows that I don’t see in Uechi. The lines of direction and power are different.

Third... Bruce Siddle is also the guy that spent several days in a Thompson Island Uechi camp teaching PPCT. You know... that pressure point stuff that Jimmy Malone also teaches thanks to Bruce. And what does Bruce like to use? A tip of thumb strike.

Sure, but limited, in my view, and something I would not want to rely on, in the chaos of a fight.

Here is something very apropos

Ryan claimed that his study of ancient "iron shirt" methods made him
>invulnerable to strikes/pain/submissions, at least below the neck.

And then Ryan gets offered a UFC fight. The ultimate test! Will his mastery
>Of classical karate techniques defeat the UFC street fighters?

For those of
>You who missed that tournament: Ryan drew Remco Pardoel, a large Judo player
>From Europe, in the first round. (Remco was the guy who almost killed the
>Small black Muay Thai fighter Orlando Weit via elbows to the head, and then
>lost to Royce Gracie by a choke.)

Ryan tried a punch (or kick?), which
>missed;

>Remco closed and took him down (Ryan trying to hit some pressure point on
>Remco's neck/back as he fell), and immediately established side control/side
>headlock. He then mounted Ryan and choked him out for the win.

>The whole time Ryan wasn't able to attempt any offensive threat at all.
He was puzzled by why the pressure points didn't seem to have an effect
>during
>The takedown.

I think Ryan Parker was an excellent example of the failure of traditional
>Martial arts. Almost anyone watching the battle would see an easy domination
>by Remco, who hardly even broke a sweat in his victory and was never
>Threatened.

Not every self-defense situation requires that we cave someone's chest in with a punch. For example, verbal defense skills are an important part of training for anyone from a soldier to a law officer to a common citizen.

Never said otherwise, or implied otherwise, you are assuming too much in my discussions.

Second, Siddle spent a good deal of his writing discussing the idea of operating in an ideal physiologic "zone" where all the bad things associated with the "dump" (to use the vernacular) don't happen. LOT'S written about this... Good stuff. Darren Laur's page summarizes a good deal of it.

I am very well aware of what he wrote; recall I was the first to bring all this to the forums’ attention.

I also believe in what I have trained in and learned in attendance at the Lethal force Institute.

I am a firm believer in gross motor movement under stress. You are free to believe what you will.

Finally... These weapons aren't just about thrusting or striking. They are also about grabbing. There is absolutely no match I know of on this martial earth for a Uechika with well-trained hands. Add in some grappling skills and you've got yourself a complete warrior.

This always makes me chuckle..you know the stuff dreams are made of…. Uechi invincibility.

[Guest]

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[Stryke]

It`s a good thing those Muay Thai guys know some Uechi tricks , they`ll feel a lot safer at night

Quote

There is absolutely no match I know of on this martial earth for a Uechika with well-trained hands. Add in some grappling skills and you've got yourself a complete warrior.

**Come on guys you know this is just overzealous appreciation of the style , got to love the passion , I`m sure Sensei Glasheen knows deep down Shotokan is best , with a little grappling thrown in of course , Uechi and grappling could make a complete fighter no doubt , but it comes back to training methods not styles , if an Uechika trained his Uechi Muay Thai techniques like the Muay Thai , and his grappling Like the grappler , he could no doubt be a world class fighter , if he was a world class athlete .....

[Guest]

deleted

[Halford]

DAISIES! Man is, and make no mistake about it, a killer! If killing is confined to the battle field and in some cases it was,your observations and that of the book, would perhaps make sense. It is true that hand-to-hand combat in war has not been exactly what it was in the Civil War or during the Crusades,etc. and has taken on a more abstract, remote sense with targets on a screen and computer based opponents,etc. that you don't see face to face! If you are saying that people are not killers for the sake of just killing but kill for a cause, a belief, some cherished notion of ideals, superiority, or whatever, then you may be right. But I ask you what about all those who are killed to cleanse the races of man? No, everyone an be a killer, whether programmed or not, whether accidental or not, and we actually murder plenty of people everyday in our thoughts! As Jesus is to have said in the Bible, for those of you who are religious, or rather, the implication is, that 'anger is murder'.Maybe some of you can come up with the exact quotations,etc. The so-called 'gentle' peoples of the world also can be quite deadly, aroused to fanatical killings,etc. As they(the great anonymous THEY) are fond of saying,"It's a jungle out there". Have a great day and just remember there are more murderers walking your streets every day!

[Bill Glasheen]

Van

Thanks for the clarification. This damn English language will mess you up every time!

This always makes me chuckle..you know the stuff dreams are made of…. Uechi invincibility.

All other things equal, of course. Take a superior genetic specimen and the training doesn't matter much. Take two equal people - one with and one without the hand and foot training. The person with the additional benefit of strong wrists, hands, fingers, and toes is going to get the nod. This isn't rocket science, or martial mistique. It's just common sense to approach training with balance in mind. I think most do not do this. I know for a fact it doesn't happen in the weight room with the average athlete. Then folks are surprised when people get freakish injuries. Not me...

It just makes sense not to spend 100% of your time on one part of the force continuum when life isn't going to get you there except in the one in 10,000 situation at most. While I'm working on my thrust-o-doom TM, I'm also working on verbal skills and investigating heavy weaponry (remember our previous discussions?).

Most self defense situations cannot be compared to an UFC fight. I don't know of any Uechika other than Joey that had to think about that much. And the law hamstrings our warrior mindset. Bummer!

No bravado, Van. Just common sense.

BTW, I disagree with you on the Muay Thai. While you see different lines and angles of power, I see the same thing. Why? I'm not exactly sure. Perhaps it's because my first style wasn't Uechi. For example, I unlock my hips in my kicks more than the average Uechika; it's how I was taught before I ever did my first sanchin. I and several of my students have actually been "corrected" on certain things we teach and do. I listen...and then keep doing. Sanchin just added some discipline to what I already knew. Perhaps others don't think those possibilities are there because it was never explicitly shown to them. But just because someone hasn't done it doesn't mean it isn't there within the very broad principles taught to us in a parsimonious system.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Halford is referring to a post - I believe - that I put on page 4.

Just read On Killing, Halford. Don't take my word for it. Killing isn't as easy as people make it out to be - even for the killers.

Yes, there are sociopaths in the world in the bottom percentile or two. Yes, we need constantly to be aware of and prepared for those whose wiring isn't quite like the average Joe.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Stryke

I give the nod to Shotokan and judo. Good combination. One of the most frightening martial artists I ever met was a Shotokan practitioner. I knew some good ideas when I stole them...

- Bill

[Ron Klein]

Bill:

Nothing-new here, just some comments….

I read your post regarding Bruce Siddle with interest. PPCT is a basic entry point for martial artists to realize that they absolutely need to know and understand human anatomy and that there is an infinite variation in the human population (Siddle's "Warrior's Edge"). When you over lay this with one’s own physiological and psychological response to stress- effectiveness of strikes etc. becomes—well, problematic-in the chaos of an encounter. Stuff happens, like dropping your ballast ……..been there…….

No matter how we train, we must realize that the laws of nature have no pity. Force still equals mass times acceleration. And the response to this is to train some more. I believe it is vital to develop targeting skills, sequential striking and control to utilize the force continuum until the threat is neutralized.

As for weapons development. One thing to keep in mind is that we no longer live in a agrarian culture. The daily use of our bodies has changed drastically. Body-weapons involving hand strength (and toe strength)-is tough to achieve and does take considerable dedication, i.e. training. After these many years I am wondering if such training is most important for its psychological benefit and that is the real benefit of time spent. Such training is a personal thing, and I believe important.

Anyway, a martial artists who thinks that PPCT, or even series of techniques is the answer for survival is nuts. The Uechi Kata are a rich source of sequential-targeted strikes, weapons, holds, takedowns, reflex and instnct..... and….attitude-you just never give up....never.....

One of the corrections officers I had worked with described PPCT as one offender and four burly CO’s…f=m x a.

I just read this- it is so sterile and clinical. The only important part is to train---then train some more and never..never give up.......


take care

Ron

[Bill Glasheen]

Ron

All good points, and I think we are in agreement.

Van and I go way back on these discussions. When you look at one of these in mid-stream, you might think he or I are on extremes. Not so... Part of what I am saying is that the gross motor stuff is really no big deal to me - so obvious that it's not worth belaboring the point. I forget which is which in the low-road/high-road lingo (vernacular terminology used by some in the business). But when the physiological/psychological system reaches a certain critical operating point, the simple, gross stuff is where we should concentrate. It's what will happen, regardless of what we believe. I believe in it, so no big deal.

Meanwhile... We also have the targeted sequential striking at our disposal. It is there, and it has its place - I believe - in the right part of the force continuum and the right operating point in our physiologic/psychologic system. Rich showed an interesting photo in Iraq where a soldier was leading a civilian from point A to point B while holding him in a wrist/finger hyperextended position. That move required some dexterity, and it was appropriate for use with the TV cameras filming a U.S. Marine dealing with an unruly civilian. This isn't the time to pull out the Bushmaster and fire away. This isn't the time to cave someone's chest in. And whether the police officer likes it or not, (s)he is legally bound to use only enough force to accomplish the task at hand. This is when the non-gross-motor stuff can be very useful.

As for PPCT, I realize it is what it is. No more, and no less. It is pressure point 101. My point was that Bruce recognizes there is a place for targeted, sequential striking (or maybe just targeted in PPCT). It's more material.

As for the agrarian society and what people can and cannot do, well hard to argue. On the same note, there aren't many people my age that can do a split. But we train for those, no? Yes, I believe there is a psychological and health benefit for doing the finger, wrist, hand, and toe training. Good reason to do it, no? Whatever it takes. I often preach to people that ANY improvement in our lot is a good thing - regardless of whether or not we reach any Platonic ideal. And in the process, some of us are surprised at where the journey takes us. Those are good surprises indeed.

No fantasy... Just continuous quality improvement - as you yourself preached.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Hey Sensei Glasheen , hope you realise my last post was tounge in cheek , I`m a firm beleiver in training method over style , It`s how you train not what you train that`s important .

This complete style , style vs style stuff , its ridiculous , it`s a complete methodology we should be looking at , all the styles contain most things if you look deep enough *did i just say that* , but it involves altering drills , methods and practice , but not necessarilly the style .

probably the same reason you can see the similaritys in the elbows .

[gmattson]

Remco closed and took him down (Ryan trying to hit some pressure point on Remco's neck/back as he fell), and immediately established side control/side headlock. He then mounted Ryan and choked him out for the win.

I thought for sure Ryan would completely forget his training and simply start flailing away, but... alas, he actually attempted to use his pressure point skills.

The fact that it didn't work against someone like Remco, simply points to the fact that 99 9/10 of the population, regardless of what breathing method, drills or style used, would have met the same fate. Doesn't mean we should try to read "failure" in Ryan's ability to use his techniques, rather, that he should be more selective in his opponents.

[RACastanet]

To Bill's point from above, here is the USMC version of the force continuum:

CONTINUUM OF FORCE

1. Compliant (Cooperative): Verbal Commands

2. Resistant (Passive): Contact Controls

3. Resistant (Active): Compliance Techniques*

4. Assaultive (Bodily Harm): Defensive Tactics*

5. Assaultive (Serious Bodily Harm/Death): Deadly Force*

* Martial Arts techniques

#s 1, 2 and 3 utilize fairly complex techniques. When you get to 4 and 5 gross motor motions prevail. However, if hand techniques are used on the attack, they need to be fairly precise as the enemy may be wearing a helmet, flak jacket and God knows what hanging from the webbing. So, the throat, neck, groin, face are primary targets.

Rich

[RACastanet]

More... By the time a Marine reaches the black belt level, he/she is expected to have a working knowledge of human anatomy, where major arteries, veins and pressure points are. Some are targeted as softening techniques, some are targeted for lethal blows.

To help a friend prepare for his MCMAP black belt test last summer I went through Dillman's Tuite book and Dr Frank Netter's human anatomy book with him. He did so well on that portion of the test both of those books were purchased and added to the Martial Arts Center of Excellence library.

Rich