Evolution Vs Intelligent design

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Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ~Susan Ertz, Anger in the Sky

~And people who fear the unknown always fear immortality.

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Oldfist

Thank you!

Could not for the life of me rememeber the exact wording or whom said it.

(as I write down the correct attribution for next time )

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[Oldfist]

We are good at imagining and that's cool, but we may not be bright enough to either understand what is really going on or to implement it in useful and nonharmful ways. For example, with all our great ability and knowledge we can't even make a decent Cox -2 inhibitor (Vioxx). It is clear that we really don't know Jack about making drugs and their side effects. We stumble along doing some definite and significant good, but mainly making a fortune for drug companies.

Meta: See, I don't buy that "are we bright enough to handle the technology?" argument because clearly we are, otherwise we could not have discovered these things.

What technology - the magical ones that you are claiming will exist but don't yet? Be careful, you kinda morphed what I said. Hyping a technology that does not yet exist is not equivalent to understanding exactly what is going on at the molecular level - proteomics. Maybe it takes aliens that see in 4D and experience the world in a much different way than we do, or maybe no entity in the universe does. Maybe compared to such aliens or to whatever it would take, we are inadequate to the task of complete understanding in the same way that an ant is only hardwired to its interesting but very limited work. Note that this is only appropriate healty skepticism like:

To know that you know nothing is best.
To pretend to know when you do not is a disease.
-Lao Tzu

The real frontier and barrier that needs to be overcome is that we have a really, really, really, .... (omega times) poor understanding of what exactly a human being (organism) is and how it functions on the molecular level. Yes, we have mapped the human genome and that's wonderful. We know about how many and where the proteins are, but we still have very little understanding of the function and interaction of each of the individual proteins. So, in order to successfully apply any new technology to the human body, we must e.g. first make significant progress in proteomics, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Meta: It's only a matter of (exponential) time before these issues become clear. That's all.

Really, again, about exactly which issues ? Why do you think that deep and complete understanding of currently unknown complex scientific relationships is merely a question of settling issues?

To know that you know nothing is best.
To pretend to know when you do not is a disease.
-Lao Tzu

Isn't unbridled belief in the human race's purported ability to figure everything out about the universe just another flavor of (pseudo-scientific) anthropocentrism? Doesn't it fly in the face of real scientific inquiry? It's fun to speculate, but it is what it is, namely unscientific speculation.

Meta: To quote Shakespeare:
"What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god!"

Well, yes that's a fine example of a literary device called "hyperbole."

I think the right (objective scientific) attitude is the one expressed by Richard Feynman (Nobel prize winning physicist). He often said that he didn't prejudge what science is or what it should be, but rather "he just wanted to find out about the world," and that if it came out all nice and neatly arranged, that was fine, or if it turned out to be an onion with an unbounded number of layers that we always must keep peeling off forever than that was fine too. He "just wanted to find out about the world," how ever he could and in what way it might reveal itself to us (humans).

Meta: Right.
I'm not saying that we will find out everything there is to know in the next 50 years. I'm simply saying that there is an
"Event" which we are rushing towards within the concept of technology, one wherein Medicine, Traditional Technology, and Quantum physics will unify.

Don't you think this "Event" is kinda vague? It doesn't sound very clear or scientific, but yes it is fun speculation which I too enjoy (believe it or not ).

I hate to say I'm right, but while I am indeed "guessing", I am making reasonable assertions based upon current trends, research, and technology levels.

No, you don't.

I would also add, that I have been making such predictions about technological advancement for the last 25 years.
I have not been wrong yet.

This type of argument is similar to my gambler friends who only report all the times that they won, but not their overall winnings/losses. I wonder what your predictions were regarding fusion reactors and energy, or real artificial intellgence promised 20 years ago to be realized in ten years.

Also, being a logical person I'm sure you realize that any such argument suffers from the problem of induction, namely, the occurrence of a success in a finite number of events, never ensures the occurrence of success on the next event, e.g. the levees have always held against hurricanes in the past, so they will hold this year.

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[

What technology - the magical ones that you are claiming will exist but don't yet?

That's not a fair statement because both you and I know
which technologies we are talking about here.
:p




Be careful, you kinda morphed what I said.

Meta: I do that sometimes...
...You'd be surprised at how often it works..


Note that this is only appropriate healthy skepticism like:

To know that you know nothing is best.
To pretend to know when you do not is a disease.
-Lao Tzu

Meta: Hoist me by my own petard, would you?

Meta: I freely admit that there is falsifiability of my predictions. However, I am certain you *also* know, that if induction were an Axiom, then we would not even be typing messages on this forum.

I am, believe it or not, an optimist.
But I think it is important to remember, that *any* experiment based upon scientific theory, requires a but of
induction, deduction, and extrapolation, and good 'ol fashioned educated guesses.
That is, until the empirical data are returned.

[Oldfist]

Meta: I predicted that Fusion would be achieved in the laboratory mid-90's. Problem was, Energy input was higher than output.
I had predicted the first Fusion reactor going online by 2020.
True AI has a bit longer to go, in fact probably until the first Quantum Computer.
Besides, can't you just accept that I'm a super-genius and move on?

Ok, my good friend, to that I will reluctantly concede!

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By the by,:
Mmmmyes....My signature quote was meant not for me, persay, but rather for you people, you know, all you little-brains?
(Guffaws arrogantly)





...Now, where are my keys?

[Oldfist]

Oldfist

Thank you!

Could not for the life of me rememeber the exact wording or whom said it.

(as I write down the correct attribution for next time )

My pleasure!

If I wrote it down, I probably won't be able to find that. I also have a problem finding my glasses. My son now is so trained to help out that he automatically picks them up and delivers them to me without my actually having to notice that I misplaced them ...

[Ninnaum]

I have a lot to say, but I'm much limited on time, I have so many things going on...

I know that I am alive, now if I can find a little time to sleep?

You don't live long living and handling everything on your own, too many hours and way too much to do...

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Well folks,
The "jury is out" so to speak.
I personally feel this is a win for education, and society at large.

http://tinyurl.com/bu9sf

http://tinyurl.com/9w497

http://tinyurl.com/ahc2k

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Meta

What scares me is that the ID'ers got that far.

Any "theory" that can't pass basic muster should NOT be taught in class as science.

Period.

[Panther]

First, allow me to welcome the newcomers to the "tough Issues" forum.

Second, allow me to sincerely wish everyone the happiest of holidays, whether that is a "Merry Christmas", Happy Channukh", or the holiday of your choice... no matter what diety you worship or even if it just happens to be a "day off" for no reason. Regardless, I wish each of you the very best and that you will be good to each other.

Third, this is better than watching a big-screen HDTV! Even though I've been very busy handling my Mom's estate and various other asundry business related items, I keep coming back to read the excellent discourse here. Nice to know the high intelligence and thought of posters here.

As always...

Take care and be good to each other...

[Bill Glasheen]

What I like about the Judge's written ruling is it sounded like he read from my posts. As they say, great minds think alike.

As was stated by the judge, ID is a euphemism for creationism. I liked the fact that he went so far as to accuse the ID folks of lies - something contrary to the ethics of the religious belief system from whence ID came. Go figure... It's like right-to-lifers bombing abortion clinics. Praise the Lord, and pass the collection plate!

That being said...

Science deals with fact. Science deals with the observable or measureable. Science is a process of discovery. Science is NOT about faith. Science is NOT about what cannot be explained. Any ideas can be entertained by the process of science, but no idea gets "favored nation" status. Otherwise "truth" can never be found.

I have no problem with ID being taught in the public schools - in a class on religions. Religion deals with faith. Leave science to the scientists.

Frankly a side of me kind of misses the ID folks being around. It was fun making The Church look like an ass for persecuting scientists of their era who argued against the earth being the center of the universe. Whenever you see an earth belief system marginalized step by step in the march for truth, it puts it all in perspective.

But you know how it is. It's just like the bloody chi-sters. "Chi" is anything that I can't explain. If I can, then I obviously am not talking about chi. Riiiggghhhttt!!!

- Bill

[Oldfist]

... Even though I've been very busy handling my Mom's estate and various other asundry business related items..

As always...

Take care and be good to each other...

Panther, thanks and best of luck to you taking care of your Mom's estate. I don't know your circumstances, but I had to do that a few years ago too, and it can be a tough time dealing with everything.

Enjoy the Holiday Season as much as you can!