Martial Arts Professional

[jorvik]

Well I don't know dollars .but Laird does sound like he is selling himself short and I think that he would do far better charging per class and upping the anti..I also think 2 hours is a bit long 1 and a half hours seems better, and I think that the structure of a class is important, the way it is run .......
the teacher who I trained with who made the most ( he drove a porshe )....didn't charge the most.
The classes were very reasonable and very structured.............he would start with basic warm up exercises, then basic techniques, then we would train with partners doing self defence..then he would maybe show us an advanced kata.then back to some kata or sparring..gradings were no biggy, he charged a standard price for every grade even blackbelt.....and if you didn't turn up then you didn't pay.......and when you came back you were treated like the prodigal son ..no pressure on the customer .the customer is always right
the school that I go to now charges an arm and a leg to train......I want to know the style or at least some of it.but they certainly haven't got my loyalty.and one day I may even become a competitor

[wes tasker]

Check out what dojos are doing well.

I've read this thread and it's interesting comparing the various approaches to the way I teach. I realize it started with the idea of teaching as a living - which I have no desire to. Bill's quote above though makes me think that there are different versions of what parameters one uses to consider things going well. Take my Pekiti Tirsia class for example. I teach for three hours every Sunday. I charge 40.00 a month or 10.00 a class. I have some students who are charged "whatever they can afford up to 40.00 a month" - because I know times are tight for them. All my students work hard and I've had very, very few take me and/or the classes I teach for granted. There's a certain "pace" and "quality of practice" expected that comes through pretty clear after a few classes as well that keeps the dabblers from staying for too long.

I'm not sure if this off topic as the thread started about full-time instruction for a living, but you don't necesarily have to charge alot to make people appreciate what they are getting.

-wes

[Valkenar]

So much for free will. So much for choosing not to participate.

I said "trying to manipulate" not "forcing people" there's a difference. If you're using a contract to get them to come when they don't want to, you're manipulating them. Plain and simple. You can argue that it's in their best interest, but it's that doesn't change the fact. Sure, they can opt out of the system. That's why it'san attempt at manipulation, and not an absolute coercion.

I was, the harder a very strong core of good people would fight to stay. Go figure...

Right. And do you think that very strong core group of good people really needed the threat of failing the PE credit in order to come?

The more I yielded to the demands of folks who wanted to have an easy ride, the lower the attendance. The more I set the bar high and demanded commitment and excellence of my students, the better the group became.

I never suggested making the class itself easier.

I stopped going there because I got tired of catching fungal and staph infections from the equipment.

Good thinking, because pay-as-you go causes fungal infections, sorry I forgot to mention that part.

Second, WHY THE HELL NOT have goals in mind? ...
...
You're damn straight my teaching is goal oriented! To suggest otherwise is to imply we're no better than a social club.

I didn't say anything about not having goals. I said it's not goal-oriented the way a university is. At a university you attend, you reach your one major goal and then you stop. At a dojo you go, you reach some goals and you continue training.

Also, for many people the goal of a university isn't the learning it's the diploma, and any education is a pleasant side-benefit. In martial arts the belt is usually intended as a pleasant side-benefit of the training.

A dojo factory is a place where the training isn't the important thing, the certification is. If that's what someone is into, fine. I don't think it's particularly praiseworthy, but it's not my concern.

It's a distraction, Justin. Class time is class time; finance time is finance time.

If you want to take a narrow view of things you can. Not everyone feels like it's blasphemy or some unendurable distraction to take money at the door. Obviously you've never seen things done this way, so you can't accept that it works. Plenty of yoga, dance, aerobics and other physical training type classes do it this way.

then why isn't it a common practice in a free market economy?

It is, just not where you're used to looking for it. The free market economy is not a magic bullet. It's not sensible to look at what people do or don't do and just declare that because it's a free market economy whatever they're doing must be the right solution. I'm not going to bother arguing this any more.

Bottom line for anyone who cares:

People have had success supporting their schools with money taken at the door. There are potential benefits and drawbacks of doing it this way, like anything. If you're interested in learning more I suggest talking to someone who uses this method.

[Bill Glasheen]

I stopped going there because I got tired of catching fungal and staph infections from the equipment.

Good thinking, because pay-as-you go causes fungal infections, sorry I forgot to mention that part.

Dripping, pointless sarcasm noted.

In order to have good equipment in a health club that is properly maintained and has a fixed life cycle, a club needs a serious, steady revenue stream. That a fact. If the club isn't doing well, then...

• They can't afford to hire and keep the best staff.
• They can't afford to maintain equipment properly and retire equipment that has reached the end of its usable life.
• They can't afford the considerable care and expense of keeping a sanitary workout environment.

You really don't want to know what goes on in kitchens of restaurants which aren't properly run. Similarly, you really don't want to know all of the medical issues that you face in a gym if the place isn't properly cared for. This is particularly true with mats and grappling. Some infections acquired in such an environment are permanent and disfiguring.

So much for free will. So much for choosing not to participate.

I said "trying to manipulate" not "forcing people" there's a difference.

I thought you majored in psychology, Justin. You really need to read BF Skinner's Beyond Freedom and Dignity. And FWIW, Skinner's behaviorist approach to psych therapy is one of the few evidence-based methods out there besides pharmacologic therapy.

Behavior modification goes on all the time. "Manipulate" is a pejorative you paste on behavior modification you don't like. Call it like it is, Justin.

Not everyone feels like it's blasphemy or some unendurable distraction to take money at the door. Obviously you've never seen things done this way, so you can't accept that it works. Plenty of yoga, dance, aerobics and other physical training type classes do it this way.

They take money at the door of my gym, Justin. (But not at the dojo door, BTW). But the cost structure is such that it's a much, much better deal to sign the contract - as it should be. So you would have a choice at my gym to do it your way.

I rely on gyms having such an option when I travel on business. The hotel gyms are usually worthless. All I have to do is go to the front desk and ask them where the nearest "real gym" is. They always have a place to recommend, and such a place always has an option for a traveling person (such as yours truly) to pay on a per-visit basis. If I had to do that every day it would get prohibitively expensive. But it is an option I also exercise.

Been there, done that.

But when I do such an arrangement, I don't expect to be able to walk into someone's advanced yoga class or advanced aerobics whatever or someone's XXX Ryu martial art class. Such entities require a minimum knowledge base to participate as well as a relationship with the instructor. The good stuff doesn't happen in a come-as-you-please environment.

I didn't say anything about not having goals. I said it's not goal-oriented the way a university is.

I couldn't disagree more.

At a university you attend, you reach your one major goal and then you stop. At a dojo you go, you reach some goals and you continue training.

I'm saddened that your learning stopped after you got your degree. What a horrible experience.

My personal experience with my education is that it ultimately taught me how to teach myself. For example I've learned orders of magnitude more history after college than before - because my education primed the learning pump. I saw the relevance of current events vis-a-vis the past, and it made me hungry to dig down deep and learn more.

My graduate education taught me how to do original research that one day will be in a university class.

And FWIW, if the learning stops after getting an engineering degree, then your degree is worthless. Why? Because in a decade, about half of what you learned is obsolete.

A proper education is supposed to teach you how to learn. God knows we all need all the knowledge and wisdom we can acquire.

Also, for many people the goal of a university isn't the learning it's the diploma, and any education is a pleasant side-benefit.

I feel very sorry for these "many people." That wasn't my experience. I needed 130 hours to get my udergrad degree in engineering. I finished with 196 hours. My advisor was chosen for me because he was one of the pinheads who wouldn't say something stupid like "Why are you taking this course? You don't need it for your degree program!" That advisor subsequently went on and founded a brand new engineering program at Virginia Commonwealth University. They're fast becoming one of the best engineering programs in the region for silicon technology.

In martial arts the belt is usually intended as a pleasant side-benefit of the training.

It is what it is, and your perceptions are what they are.

"The belt" is a carrot that holds many people in long enough to prime their martial education in much the same way that a University degree does. And FWIW, it is my experience that more than a few people quit after getting the shodan. My spouse grudgingly reminds me of that all the time. Their loss...

Meanwhile, since when is a friggin belt the ONLY goal on the table here? How about learning something? How about getting in better shape? How about getting in better touch with mind-body phenomena? How about gaining confidence, and learning to put "the boogeyman" within to rest? How about making new friends who share similar interests and have similar values? How about learning about a new culture? How about training so you can save your arse if you go into law enforcement or the military? Are those not goals?

When I have all this "stuff" I want to share (as my legacy), is my desire to pass that knowledge on not a goal? Or are people supposed to come and just do "stuff" without achieving anything?

Why are you so fixed on belts and diplomas? Don't you have any personal goals in life not tied to things?

A dojo factory is a place where the training isn't the important thing, the certification is. If that's what someone is into, fine. I don't think it's particularly praiseworthy, but it's not my concern.

Does having contracts equate to a belt factory? This seems to be what you are implying.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

Does having contracts equate to a belt factory? This seems to be what you are implying.

No. I said, basically that if you have a black belt factory you have a definite endpoint in mind. Let me diagram what this means.

A. you are a dojo factory
B. you have an endpoint

A -> B

Got it?

If I never implied that having a contract means you're a belt factory. Nor did I imply that being a belt factory means you need a contract. The closest conclusion you can draw is that if you ARE a belt factory then you DO have an endpoint and so you MIGHT need to coerce attendance so you MIGHT need a contract .

As for the rest, I had some responses, but my computer shut down.

It amount to this:
Are you sincerely misconstruing my arguments, Bill, or are you just building strawmen? Because some of the conclusions you're drawing from my statements (I.E. all learning stops after graduation, tangible goals are my fixation) are just preposterous.

[Bill Glasheen]

Man, this strawman thing sure has some legs. I sometimes wonder if people know what it means.

I play devil's advocate a lot, Justin. I'm trying to put a mirror up to many of your - using your own word - "preposterous" arguments. But I don't think many of my devil's advocate arguments are off base.

I do find it "preposterous" that you would think martial arts study isn't goal oriented. FYI, I've set one to three year goals all my martial existence. The nature of these goals change as my study matures. And I have goals in mind for all my students who choose to show up regularly. And these goals change over time.

I also get irritated at the notion that school is all about getting the diploma. This is my opinion of course, but in my view that is really sad. Yes, the diploma is important and necessary, as is certification in any established art or trade. But as I am fond of saying, I tried not to let school get in the way of my education, and I try not to let business get in the way of my work.

But that's me.

It is fair to say that you can't repeatedly paint with a broad brush as you have done often in your arguments, and it isn't fair to slip in the adjectives with the negative connotations in what could be a more rational discussion of a subject.

A contract is a contract. As cxt pointed out to me in a PM, there are indeed martial arts contracts that give such entities a bad name. (See Surviving Karate Contracts) On the other hand, there are good ones as well. All contracts are not created equal. This is why we have lawyers - to protect us from agreements which aren't in our best interest.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Rob Redmond on Setting Goals

I'll comment in the morning as it's bed time.

[Mills75]

I really and sincerely would define success as making a difference and staying true to those that came before you and those that will come after you. I don't really look at it as being on a big scale or a small scale or a full time or a part time basis. Making a real difference and being true and carrying on a legacy isn't supposed to be defined in those ways in my opinion. I believe teachers with other careers are still martial artists full time and display that in everything they do and so I feel all teachers are full time teachers and artists in a true sense.

I heard a story of one of the Okinawan sensei coming out of his house and carrying equipment in order to help a road crew working outside his house and in doing this he was gaining more of a workout to benefit his karate training while being helpful to others while not at the dojo.

I think of Toyama sensei doing hours of grueling work in the fields of his farm and in doing so he is aiding his karate training. He is always a man of karate and martial arts even when not at the dojo. I think of Shinjo sensei who I believe is an insurance agent and of Nakahodo who owns a taxi company while all still being full time karate men in the truest sense in my view.

I feel all teachers who love the art and pass it on to the next generation are full time karate men whether they are physically at the dojo or they happen to be out of the dojo for a few hours. Plus as we all know it's not the amount of time that we spend doing something but the quality of time you spend doing something that really makes a difference.

As stated earlier in this thread I just really believe that the whole issue of part time and full time is null and void because in my view all serious martial artists are full time and on a life journey. I just really feel it matters not whether you have a thousand students or if you have one student. The thing that matters is that you and your student or students love the art and make the time that you do spend training it time well spent with focus and dedication and that you present yourself and act as a martial artist and all that entails in everything you do in and out of the dojo.


Jeff

[Rick Wilson]

“For me, contracts are very off-putting for this kind of stuff. If I don't want to or can't make use of the services for some reason then it's wasted money. I suggest giving students the option to pay per class (at the start of class) or to buy a card for several classes (5-10 or so) . Obviously if someone doesn't pay or have a card to punch, they can't participate.”

“The problem with that kind of arrangement, Justin, is that the student has no skin in the game.”

Dead on Bill, the student wants the school to be on hold for their convenience and absolutely no commitment from them whatsoever.

And there is nothing wrong with that attitude unless you want to train in my school.

My attitude is go train somewhere else.

I don’t want people who show up when they feel like it but want me to pay the rent every month and be there every class for when the feeling hits them.

Folks I don’t make a penny from my school and the school still owes me a bunch and that is okay with me because that is how I have chosen to run it.

My commitment is to keep the school open and there for my students and I will be there teaching.

I strongly feel that if I am willing to make this commitment and do this for the purpose of teaching Uechi Ryu then those who want to learn it can make a commitment back.

Let me repeat that they get a week or two free then they sign for two months (which includes a uniform). So only after they have trained for about two and a half months they do have to make a decision to commit for a year. If they cannot make that decision at that time then they are not the students I want – simple as that.

I commit so if they want to treat my commitment as valueless or as a convenience for themselves then truly they feel Karate is just another commodity.

Again everyone is welcome to approach training in whatever way works for them so if you don’t feel comfortable signing a contract then most certainly don’t.

[Valkenar]

I play devil's advocate a lot, Justin. I'm trying to put a mirror up to many of your - using your own word - "preposterous" arguments.

Except those aren't my arguments. You're making up arguments and ascribing them to me. "All learning stops after a university" "there are no goals in karate" "these are completely ridiculous arguments that nobody here is making. Play devil's advocate all you want, but inventing positions for the other person to take is not playing devil's advocate, it's erecting strawmen.

Re: commitment. It's true that one thing my model relies on is a large enough student base that it's not a huge issue that any given individual may not be there at a given class. As long as you have enough students that 10-20 will end up showing every week it works. Again, this is just another option. Some places use it and it seems to work for them. As a student, I prefer it. I'm sure some other students enjoy having a contract to give them extra incentive to go when they aren't feeling like it. It's a matter of taste, and I'm just trying to present the idea as an option. I wish you the best of luck with your dojo.

[Bill Glasheen]

This is the source of it all, Justin. These are your words; I'll let them speak for themselves. Read them carefully. You're talking to someone who was practically a lifetime student and then faculty at a university, and also who has been both student and instructor in martial arts. Not only that, but I was both faculty in the physical education department teaching martial arts, and faculty in the division of cardiology. You present these assertions as fact. Did you think you could say this and not be challenged by someone who has been both places at the same time - in the same place?

Ever heard of Brandeis? Don't they have a dojo or something there?

- Bill

The university anlogy isn't relevant, because it's completely different model. You go to a school with the specific goal of getting a piece of paper and a specific time frame. Unless you're starting up a dojo as a black belt factory, you don't have a definite endpoint in mind, nor a definite time frame. It's not goal-oriented the way a university (these days, anyway) is.

[cxt]

I think contracts are like anything else.

They can be used for good purpose or bad.
Depends pretty much on whom is using them.

Contract with a good school and everyone wins.
Contract with a poor one--say a McDojo, and your probably going to get hosed.

Just ANOTHER reason to pick with whom/where you train with care---which people should be doing anyway.

For every person that thinks contracts as automatically "bad"---how many of them do business without one?

I don't know to many companies doing business on handshake these days.
In fact I don't know of any "normal" business that does not use contracts (in some form) to an extent.

That being said---its clear that contracts can and are abused.

Again--knowing whom your dealing with and understanding the terms of the agreement are critical.

[Bill Glasheen]

[Valkenar]

This is the source of it all, Justin. These are your words; I'll let them speak for themselves.

How do you read "You go to a school with the specific goal of getting a piece of paper and a specific time frame." as "Once you're out of school you never learn anything again?"

How do you read "[in karate] you don't have a definite endpoint in mind" as "in karate there are no goals at all"

A "goal" and a "definite endpoint" are not the same thing in this context. Maybe you should be reading more carefully. When in karate do you reach a certain goal and then stop training? How is something a "definite endpoint " if nothing is ended? A blackbelt isn't an endpoint, it's a goal. Milestone is an even better word for what how karate works, at least as far as my limited experience goes. You set a target to achieve, you get there, but you keep going. There is no predefined end to it. Do you disagree?

Oh well, if you are reading these meanings into what I'm saying then I'll just have to redouble my efforts to explain things in a way you can comprehend. For now, I'll leave it that you've apparently misread nearly every point I've made. My fault for not being clearer.

[Bill Glasheen]

Look at what you wrote above, Justin. Then imagine yourself telling it to someone with dual faculty positions at a university who taught martial arts as a representative of one of those departments. And remember that the same person was a student at that university and got some of his education (including in Uechi) at that university.

Do you still stand by what you said? Is it still "apples and oranges" in your mind?

- Bill