Adults however, know the difference between Hollywood and real life a little better and do not need the reinforcement brought to mind whenever they walk into a dojo.
Just a "newbies" opinion.
Regards
------------------
A DOJO OATH
Moderator: Available
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Randy Pelletier
A DOJO OATH
I agree with the comments from Rick Wilson. I believe that the code should be reviewed with children who may be/are more easily influenced by the Hollywood movies that falsely depict a true martial artist. It would not be prudent to have children going around practising what they have learned on their friends. All sorts of trouble would happen then. This dojo code also sets some of the parents at ease who are hesitant in enrolling their children in a form of self defense that could cause harm to another person. When reviewed with children by the teacher, it shows the responsibility of the teacher and that they are aware of parents concern for safety.
Adults however, know the difference between Hollywood and real life a little better and do not need the reinforcement brought to mind whenever they walk into a dojo.
Just a "newbies" opinion.
Regards
------------------
Adults however, know the difference between Hollywood and real life a little better and do not need the reinforcement brought to mind whenever they walk into a dojo.
Just a "newbies" opinion.
Regards
------------------
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Hi:
When I said that "no american would dare change the Dojo Kun of the OKK", I think my comment was not fully explained.
The "OKIES" (sorry) according to my senior, don't really discuss it all that much, at least not when he is on Okinawa.
In actuality, I don't think that OKK has presented a specific Dojo Kun to "us" and therefore I assume they may utilize whatever Dojo Kun they feel is appropraite for their Particular Dojo and/or use those drafted by Kanei O Sensei out of continuing respect for him. Perhaps those quoted (sorry, back on page one) are 'ours'. Does anybody know?
So, there is no apparent intent to control.
Confusing in its own way.
To mirror Seth's thoughts, I make note that a local religious leader (no, I am not trying to make the art a religion) said "Faith is Caught, not Taught".
Well, that's certainly how we are acquiring whatever values we get from the Art at the moment, mostly.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" well, we have some schools (not in the Uechi Community thankfully) on the South Shore have closed, shall we say, because of serious moral----indiscretions. (Rape/molestation/assualt).
Bad Leaders?
Lack of a clear moral set of guidelines?
I think we have an obligation to see that values are CAUGHT AND TAUGHT in our respective schools. I am not going to write a Dojo Kun for "everyone/the system/ the Ryu" because I ain't in charge.
That's a matter of respect for my seniors, including GEM Sensei, IUKF Seniors, and the OKK seniors.
Yet do I not have a responsibility?
Yes.
To exercise mind control or teach cultism or religion?
No.
To teach values?
YES.
How? By leadership and exposing the students to what we and our seniors see as proper "ethics". The former from ourselves, the later from respect and, well, maybe they got something.
If the Seniors are in error?
After a point, well, you know, it would no longer be practicable to follow them.
But they do not 'seem' to discuss it much.
Ever wonder why?
We have had pointed out to us a 'veritable plethora' of reasons why a Okinawan Senior might not discuss such matters. Maybe no American asks? Maybe they think we should decide on our own? Maybe a distrust of the Gaijin's ability to understand? Maybe an assumption that we already should or do understand.
JOHN
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When I said that "no american would dare change the Dojo Kun of the OKK", I think my comment was not fully explained.
The "OKIES" (sorry) according to my senior, don't really discuss it all that much, at least not when he is on Okinawa.
In actuality, I don't think that OKK has presented a specific Dojo Kun to "us" and therefore I assume they may utilize whatever Dojo Kun they feel is appropraite for their Particular Dojo and/or use those drafted by Kanei O Sensei out of continuing respect for him. Perhaps those quoted (sorry, back on page one) are 'ours'. Does anybody know?
So, there is no apparent intent to control.
Confusing in its own way.
To mirror Seth's thoughts, I make note that a local religious leader (no, I am not trying to make the art a religion) said "Faith is Caught, not Taught".
Well, that's certainly how we are acquiring whatever values we get from the Art at the moment, mostly.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" well, we have some schools (not in the Uechi Community thankfully) on the South Shore have closed, shall we say, because of serious moral----indiscretions. (Rape/molestation/assualt).
Bad Leaders?
Lack of a clear moral set of guidelines?
I think we have an obligation to see that values are CAUGHT AND TAUGHT in our respective schools. I am not going to write a Dojo Kun for "everyone/the system/ the Ryu" because I ain't in charge.
That's a matter of respect for my seniors, including GEM Sensei, IUKF Seniors, and the OKK seniors.
Yet do I not have a responsibility?
Yes.
To exercise mind control or teach cultism or religion?
No.
To teach values?
YES.
How? By leadership and exposing the students to what we and our seniors see as proper "ethics". The former from ourselves, the later from respect and, well, maybe they got something.
If the Seniors are in error?
After a point, well, you know, it would no longer be practicable to follow them.
But they do not 'seem' to discuss it much.
Ever wonder why?
We have had pointed out to us a 'veritable plethora' of reasons why a Okinawan Senior might not discuss such matters. Maybe no American asks? Maybe they think we should decide on our own? Maybe a distrust of the Gaijin's ability to understand? Maybe an assumption that we already should or do understand.
JOHN
------------------
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
A DOJO OATH
When I learned my first technique, the first day I practiced Karate in a dojo, I did it mechanically, poorly, and without understanding. Almost twenty years later, I still practice that technique (gedan barai) and I know something of how to do it and what it means and can apply it a variety of ways. Many, many many hours of rote repetition combined with good instruction and trial and error have yielded results. A kata, when first being learned, pure mechanical immitation into rote memorization allowing solitary practice and consideration back into interaction with teachers and fellow students and so on...
My point is this, perhaps a well crafted set of "practice place principles" can aid in the learning of the art taught there. Immitation, rote memorization, individual consideration, group interaction... Verbal Kata?
Some schools teach techniques they know little about with innaccurate interpretations and follow principles which are of questionable motivation or value. Humans will never get it right, but they will continue to try. Those of us who seek a place to learn must make our own judgements and follow our own path. Many sets of footprints and signs are there, showing us many ways up the mountain, we have to choose for ourselves.
ted
My point is this, perhaps a well crafted set of "practice place principles" can aid in the learning of the art taught there. Immitation, rote memorization, individual consideration, group interaction... Verbal Kata?
Some schools teach techniques they know little about with innaccurate interpretations and follow principles which are of questionable motivation or value. Humans will never get it right, but they will continue to try. Those of us who seek a place to learn must make our own judgements and follow our own path. Many sets of footprints and signs are there, showing us many ways up the mountain, we have to choose for ourselves.
ted
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Jake Steinmann
- Posts: 1184
- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Newton, MA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
I was pondering this thread a bit last night, and a very old quote kept running through my head:
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Food for thought.
Jake
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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Food for thought.
Jake
------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Hi: I think Tony Asked "can I develop a sense of honor without having reference to someone else's code" or words to that effect.
The Humanists say you can you will and you must or your life is nothing.
Personally, I just don't know.
I think you can. But reference to other's writings and thoughts help, so that you are not "reinventing the wheel".
The DOJO KUN printed in this forum certainly are worthy enough.
Jake:
The road to hell is lined with good intentions.
hmmmm---a simple reference to a DEEEEP religious and philosophical set of concepts.
Is there a hell? (Norse word (hel) for a very cold place.)
None of our "sayings" or principles" or words is without a 'root' or guidepost that someone decides to use and follow somewhere somtime.
We are each the arbiter of our own fate.
Yet, if the IUKF or OKK asked me to accept either of the Doju Kun printed here, or face 'ouster' I would do so, and accept them know, and interpret them as best I can.
They have not asked. If they asked re: an unacceptable "oath", I would not.
JOHN
JOHN
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The Humanists say you can you will and you must or your life is nothing.
Personally, I just don't know.
I think you can. But reference to other's writings and thoughts help, so that you are not "reinventing the wheel".
The DOJO KUN printed in this forum certainly are worthy enough.
Jake:
The road to hell is lined with good intentions.
hmmmm---a simple reference to a DEEEEP religious and philosophical set of concepts.
Is there a hell? (Norse word (hel) for a very cold place.)
None of our "sayings" or principles" or words is without a 'root' or guidepost that someone decides to use and follow somewhere somtime.
We are each the arbiter of our own fate.
Yet, if the IUKF or OKK asked me to accept either of the Doju Kun printed here, or face 'ouster' I would do so, and accept them know, and interpret them as best I can.
They have not asked. If they asked re: an unacceptable "oath", I would not.
JOHN
JOHN
------------------
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rick Wilson:
To my great regret I once stood and listened to someone who had trained in Okinawa tell a class that it was our duty to do everything our Sensei told us to do. We were to be prepared to die for our Sensei. To jump under a bus if told to. Etc.
Rick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And the Nihongo for "Say WHAT?!?!" would be...?
student
To my great regret I once stood and listened to someone who had trained in Okinawa tell a class that it was our duty to do everything our Sensei told us to do. We were to be prepared to die for our Sensei. To jump under a bus if told to. Etc.
Rick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And the Nihongo for "Say WHAT?!?!" would be...?
student
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
A DOJO OATH
Don't laugh. I've been a student in a "cult dojo" before (not Uechi Ryu). Once just before this instructor brought all his students to Japan for a tour, he told various dignitaries there that if they were disgraced while traveling there, that the offending party would be killed and everyone would commit sepuku. When one of his students told him that Americans might not be to eager to follow through on that, he changed his statement to killing the offending party, instructor commit sepuku, and students shave their heads.
I kid you not. There are other stories, but I'll just leave it because I don't want to cause trouble for the innocent who still practice there.
- Bill
I kid you not. There are other stories, but I'll just leave it because I don't want to cause trouble for the innocent who still practice there.
- Bill
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Hi:
Well, I cannot let it be said that I cannot have my mind changed or be convinced.
After reading everyone's thoughts, it certainly seems that, as Americans, we would not take kindly to having any particular "Dojo Kun" "rammed down our throats."
So, I am not going to ask anyone of my students to shout or swear to, any at this time-period.
Perhaps, therefore, the Okinawan Masters have been wise in this instance not to push this issue too hard. (ie: swear to our DK or you're out) and thus have left it to us to asborb and adopt what fits with us.
Hopefully, things will remain that way, ie: not pushing the matter too hard, not having unacceptable or improper DK and letting the various nationalities and dojos and/or organizations decide what to do re: DK.
Yet it remains clear, oaths taken notwithstanding, which I concede we should leave "as is" (ie: nothing formal re: taking an oath) one may need the content and moral intent and guidance of the Dojo Kun to a greater or lesser extent, depending on who one is when one 'first reads them'.
To one without any prior 'ethical grounding', a set of Dojo Kun might serve as a guidepost, or an "epiphany", depending on how desolated his or her personal moral and ethical landscape might be.
To someone who has a firm ethical and moral grounding, a required DK oath might be superflous, or, worse, cause conflict and discord.
Clearly some Dojos (none in the Uechi community as I noted) could have used some 'ethical guidance' in this South Shore Area of Mass., which is why I raised the matter for discussion.
Well, it is, was and remains, I think, a worthwhile topic.
Oh yes, I have met the 'cult dojo' karateka, and perhaps that's why I am persuaded.
JOHN
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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 29, 2000).]
Well, I cannot let it be said that I cannot have my mind changed or be convinced.
After reading everyone's thoughts, it certainly seems that, as Americans, we would not take kindly to having any particular "Dojo Kun" "rammed down our throats."
So, I am not going to ask anyone of my students to shout or swear to, any at this time-period.
Perhaps, therefore, the Okinawan Masters have been wise in this instance not to push this issue too hard. (ie: swear to our DK or you're out) and thus have left it to us to asborb and adopt what fits with us.
Hopefully, things will remain that way, ie: not pushing the matter too hard, not having unacceptable or improper DK and letting the various nationalities and dojos and/or organizations decide what to do re: DK.
Yet it remains clear, oaths taken notwithstanding, which I concede we should leave "as is" (ie: nothing formal re: taking an oath) one may need the content and moral intent and guidance of the Dojo Kun to a greater or lesser extent, depending on who one is when one 'first reads them'.
To one without any prior 'ethical grounding', a set of Dojo Kun might serve as a guidepost, or an "epiphany", depending on how desolated his or her personal moral and ethical landscape might be.
To someone who has a firm ethical and moral grounding, a required DK oath might be superflous, or, worse, cause conflict and discord.
Clearly some Dojos (none in the Uechi community as I noted) could have used some 'ethical guidance' in this South Shore Area of Mass., which is why I raised the matter for discussion.
Well, it is, was and remains, I think, a worthwhile topic.
Oh yes, I have met the 'cult dojo' karateka, and perhaps that's why I am persuaded.
JOHN
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[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JOHN THURSTON (edited August 29, 2000).]
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Rick Wilson
A DOJO OATH
A deep bow to you, John. Clearly your personal grounding is strong.
Rick
Rick
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Rick Wilson
A DOJO OATH
Having a Dojo Kun posted and discussed is one thing. Teaching honour and the appropriate use of the art is one thing. Having all your students line up like good little robots to shout it out, or swear to it, is another thing. Let us not forget that the original post asked:
"Similar to what is done in many secret societies, I feel it would add to the spirit, (esprit de corps) and strengthen all our resolution to follow the martial way to take an oath to uphold a mutually agreed upon code of ethics/dojo kun after every promotional. "
This is where John and I part company, you see there are reasons why societies keep these things secret.
"Yet, if the IUKF or OKK asked me to accept either of the Dojo Kun printed here, or face 'ouster' I would do so, and accept them know, and interpret them as best I can."
Someone insists that I take an oath to their martial way and I am indeed out of there.
To my great regret I once stood and listened to someone who had trained in Okinawa tell a class that it was our duty to do everything our Sensei told us to do. We were to be prepared to die for our Sensei. To jump under a bus if told to. Etc.
Now, I know that this is NOT what John is talking about but I personally feel this type of cultish behaviour leads to this type of thinking.
Rick
"Similar to what is done in many secret societies, I feel it would add to the spirit, (esprit de corps) and strengthen all our resolution to follow the martial way to take an oath to uphold a mutually agreed upon code of ethics/dojo kun after every promotional. "
This is where John and I part company, you see there are reasons why societies keep these things secret.
"Yet, if the IUKF or OKK asked me to accept either of the Dojo Kun printed here, or face 'ouster' I would do so, and accept them know, and interpret them as best I can."
Someone insists that I take an oath to their martial way and I am indeed out of there.
To my great regret I once stood and listened to someone who had trained in Okinawa tell a class that it was our duty to do everything our Sensei told us to do. We were to be prepared to die for our Sensei. To jump under a bus if told to. Etc.
Now, I know that this is NOT what John is talking about but I personally feel this type of cultish behaviour leads to this type of thinking.
Rick
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by student:
And the Nihongo for "Say WHAT?!?!" would be...?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm... technically, IIRC, that would be:
"Ii nan desu ka?"
But the sentiment that I (probably you) really want to get across to Sensei "Die-for-me" would be:
"Bakuyaro! Anata wa ningen no kuzu desu! Ahou! Sayo'nara to benjo ni nomimasu!"
And the Nihongo for "Say WHAT?!?!" would be...?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ummm... technically, IIRC, that would be:
"Ii nan desu ka?"
But the sentiment that I (probably you) really want to get across to Sensei "Die-for-me" would be:
"Bakuyaro! Anata wa ningen no kuzu desu! Ahou! Sayo'nara to benjo ni nomimasu!"
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
Hi:
My Japlish is weak and I assume that that basically means "have a nice life goodbye".
As I said, at present, I accept this point of view with the caveat that it is clear some people (no Uechi people or people that I have personally met, to be sure) lack the grounding that might make a strict policy re: a "DK OATH" worthwhile.
I think that you will find, however, that the state will step in and require certain things from Dojo owners BECAUSE OF THESE (NON UECHI) RECURRENT PROBLEMS.
I don't think we will like that much, depending on what they require.
If they accept accredited teaching certs from Okinawa etc...
JOHN
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My Japlish is weak and I assume that that basically means "have a nice life goodbye".
As I said, at present, I accept this point of view with the caveat that it is clear some people (no Uechi people or people that I have personally met, to be sure) lack the grounding that might make a strict policy re: a "DK OATH" worthwhile.
I think that you will find, however, that the state will step in and require certain things from Dojo owners BECAUSE OF THESE (NON UECHI) RECURRENT PROBLEMS.
I don't think we will like that much, depending on what they require.
If they accept accredited teaching certs from Okinawa etc...
JOHN
------------------
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A DOJO OATH
PANTHER:
Thank you for providing the correct translation.
I am not in favor of the State Regulating Martial Arts teaching.
I simply hope that if they get into it, they do it in a reasonable fashion.
Best regards
JOHN
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Thank you for providing the correct translation.
I am not in favor of the State Regulating Martial Arts teaching.
I simply hope that if they get into it, they do it in a reasonable fashion.
Best regards
JOHN
------------------
A DOJO OATH
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JOHN THURSTON:
My Japlish is weak and I assume that that basically means "have a nice life goodbye".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROTFLMAO!
You could say that!
Very loosely translated it says,
"You low-life scum! You're a waste of air! You FOOL! Good-bye and go (hmmmm... how should I put this... I guess it best equates to) eat $**t!"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that you will find, however, that the state will step in and require certain things from Dojo owners BECAUSE OF THESE (NON UECHI) RECURRENT PROBLEMS.
I don't think we will like that much, depending on what they require.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The idea of licensing for martial arts instructors has been thrown around for at least the last 20 years... basically for many of the same reasons.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote And my apologies to Coach Blauer for using him as an example. I'm making no comments on legitimacy, just pointing out that there are many things available...) The fact is that, especially when discussing martial arts styles/schools, the phrase "Caveat Emptor" must rule the day. There are many legitimate martial arts styles and methods of training... there are also plenty of scam artists and psuedo-diety cultists around. IMNSHO, (just as Professor Mattson has done) it is all important to support the legitimate innovators (like Tony Blauer) and expose the illegitimate cultists (like Terry Dukes). As long as the martial arts community as a whole "gets the word out" about what's good and what's not, then the general public will (for the most part) be protected and insulated. It means being able to go across town to the legitimate kempo/ju-jitsu/kara-te/whatever dojo and take an honest look and shake hands if they're legitimate or let others know if there are truly concerns. (Opposing examples for kempo - since that's pretty big around these parts - would be a Nick Cerio school vs. a guy who was pretty big in the early 80s and claimed 12th degree! 
) BTW, Nick Cerio's schools are the ones that are still around ... and there are other schools that will fall into one or the other category. Some are more obvious than others... (IE: I seriously doubt that anyone who's knowledgable in martial arts would question the credentials of Professor Mattson, Shihan Mirakian, Shihan Garron, Professor Cerio, Sabumnim Bond, Soke Parker, Sensei Trias, Shihan Palumbo, Sensei Higaonna, Sensei Jay, Master Demura, Sabumnim Rhee - to name a few - or their top students and direct lines!) There are others... OTOH, I know of a TKD school that (personally) I'd place more in the "cult" category than legitimate... (Anyplace where I hear an American speaking in broken, fake oriental-accented English using psuedo-confusian "wisdom" taken from some chop-socky hollywood script... well, that's a big first step in the "Bzzzzzzzt, thanks for playing" category! )
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 29, 2000).]
My Japlish is weak and I assume that that basically means "have a nice life goodbye".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROTFLMAO!
You could say that! Very loosely translated it says,
"You low-life scum! You're a waste of air! You FOOL! Good-bye and go (hmmmm... how should I put this... I guess it best equates to) eat $**t!"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that you will find, however, that the state will step in and require certain things from Dojo owners BECAUSE OF THESE (NON UECHI) RECURRENT PROBLEMS.
I don't think we will like that much, depending on what they require.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The idea of licensing for martial arts instructors has been thrown around for at least the last 20 years... basically for many of the same reasons.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And what about US (Urban) versions of Goju-ryu? Or the many, many American Kempo variations? Or the numerous effective and arguably just as legitimate American "styles" that have been founded based on other martial arts put together? (realizing that some are legitimate and some are just some guy that got a black-belt and came up with "Joe-Blow-Ryu"...) And what of the myriad Jeet Kune Do stylists? Or the many TKD variations/stylists? Is that Okinawan Goju-ryu, Japanese Goju-ryu or US Goju-ryu? Is that Chinese Chin-Na or Japanese Ju-jitsu? Is the instructor a "sensei" or "sifu"? Just what IS the main Uechi-ryu organization or should you be listed with some other Okinawan federation? But wait... Now there's BJJ, Tony Blauer, and the list goes on and on and on... (sounds like a battery commercialIf they accept accredited teaching certs from Okinawa etc...
And my apologies to Coach Blauer for using him as an example. I'm making no comments on legitimacy, just pointing out that there are many things available...) The fact is that, especially when discussing martial arts styles/schools, the phrase "Caveat Emptor" must rule the day. There are many legitimate martial arts styles and methods of training... there are also plenty of scam artists and psuedo-diety cultists around. IMNSHO, (just as Professor Mattson has done) it is all important to support the legitimate innovators (like Tony Blauer) and expose the illegitimate cultists (like Terry Dukes). As long as the martial arts community as a whole "gets the word out" about what's good and what's not, then the general public will (for the most part) be protected and insulated. It means being able to go across town to the legitimate kempo/ju-jitsu/kara-te/whatever dojo and take an honest look and shake hands if they're legitimate or let others know if there are truly concerns. (Opposing examples for kempo - since that's pretty big around these parts - would be a Nick Cerio school vs. a guy who was pretty big in the early 80s and claimed 12th degree! ) BTW, Nick Cerio's schools are the ones that are still around ... and there are other schools that will fall into one or the other category. Some are more obvious than others... (IE: I seriously doubt that anyone who's knowledgable in martial arts would question the credentials of Professor Mattson, Shihan Mirakian, Shihan Garron, Professor Cerio, Sabumnim Bond, Soke Parker, Sensei Trias, Shihan Palumbo, Sensei Higaonna, Sensei Jay, Master Demura, Sabumnim Rhee - to name a few - or their top students and direct lines!) There are others... OTOH, I know of a TKD school that (personally) I'd place more in the "cult" category than legitimate... (Anyplace where I hear an American speaking in broken, fake oriental-accented English using psuedo-confusian "wisdom" taken from some chop-socky hollywood script... well, that's a big first step in the "Bzzzzzzzt, thanks for playing" category! ) [This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 29, 2000).]
