Le Haggard wrote:
1) How hot people on either side can get in talking about guns
2) How statistics and stories can be made to support any side of the issue
3) That nothing I say or that anyone else will say will change the mind of those with opposing views.
I get hot about it because I don't particularly care for people who whine about "all the victims" of "violence" and they want to create a whole new group of victims with their misguided views. Australia, if nothing else, has proven this will happen. That is a fact, but facts do not matter to some folks.
Of course stats and stories can be twisted and bent.
Part three is a certainty.
I don't expect to sway anyone or do much other than express my own view. I hope, though, that people can consider me as a person when throwing around their insulting terms in the future.
I consider Jorvik a person. I consider Jorvik to be someone who debates in a dishonest and deliberately convoluted manner for whatever reason. So, it does not much matter what you say at this point as to me regarding you as a person, you are, you just might be one that I vehemently disagree with.
As of now, I don't feel I will ever own a gun. I don't like them.
I'm glad my father has them though, since I know a handgun is my dad and mom's only means of protection when they travel. His is licensed. My dad is responsible.
If you do not want to own a firearm, that is entirely your business. I would ask you a kind favor to not lobby others with nonsense that would disarm me and my family just as I would never lobby to take your parent's means of protection which you obviously place some sort of value on and can be seen in your own words.
If you do not like guns, that is fine as well.
My dad's mom though has had a gun pulled on her by a belligerent nutcase that is supposed to be her significant other. She has Alzheimer's and doesn't understand guns anymore. He has been hooked on mega pain killers and in and out of drug treatment for it for years now.
He is/was violating federal law and can be arrested if he has filled out a form saying that he is not a user of narcotics when in fact he is. If he has been in a rehab for it, I would think that something is wrong.
If you go to the Dentist's Office to have a tooth pulled and they give you percocet, you don't have to give up your firearms. If you have cancer and you are going to be on narcotics for a very long time, up to your death, you don't have to give them up.
If you are a fruitbat who had need for them at one time, the narcotics, and you are now off of your rocker and you are addicted to them and "in and out of rehab" for it, that points to it not being the same problem.
He is fiercely pro-gun to the point of owning automatic weapons that have to be kept in separated segments and ammo for them in yet a different location. He kept them all together. Guns around the two of them are dangerous. He was licensed, too. The cops took the guns away. He shouldn't have been allowed to keep them in the first place.
Stop the presses. To whom have you been speaking, LeAnn?
I believe it is a federal requirement for a dealer in automatic weapons to remove the bolt from the weapon and then everything gets locked in a safe, etc. If he was not a dealer in them, I don't think he had to keep them separate.
This has nothing to do with his stance on firearms! You are demonizing people, that's why your side tends to draw withering fire from my side.
Furthermore, it is probably better if he is relieved of those machines if he has a drug problem, as to your claim that he should have never been able to have them, that is only your opinion. There are three sides to every story, your side, his side and then there is the truth. It might be that he should have never been allowed to own a fork, but that is another story.
I don't believe everyone should be allowed to own guns.
I don't believe that everyone should be allowed to drive a car either, but I don't lobby for and support tighter controls on them. But that is a segue into your next interesting point!
I don't think everyone should be allowed to drive cars either.
Agreed. Unfortunately, I don't think we are going to see the age requirement jump to 18 where it should be or anything else that would be safer or "constructive."
More on that in a bit.
Why do we license drivers?
The State Licenses drivers primarily to make money. The same reason they make you wear a seatbelt in certain States now. The thought of someone in a State Legislature actually concerning themselves with someone's face hitting the dash is amusing. In some of these States, they tell us that they care about our head cracking into the windshield and they give child molesters early release from prison.
And then they wonder why I consider them disingenuous. I'm supposed to believe these cretins worry about my safety when they pass a seat belt law but not when they release an armed robber or murderer. Then, people like yourself don't understand people like me.
Well, I think its because not everyone is competent to drive. It takes at least a minimum of coordination and reason to do so. Cars driven by irresponsible, incompetent, or just plain crazy (for whatever reason) drivers can end up killing lots of people. It's not the car but the driver who is a danger to the world. I don't think some people should have licenses and I'm glad that there are laws and law enforcement officers to try and keep those kinds of people from behind the wheel, both through licensing before and legal action afterwards.
All that licensing and registration that the State makes all that money on, does that prevent someone from buying and using the car they bought, or stealing one, from using it in the commission of an armed robbery, rape or murder?
I'll answer for you, no it does not.
They show High School students gory movies during Driver's Education Courses. They still drive like fools and kill themselves and others.
Licensing and registration is simply just another revenue resource and a way to make people jump through more hoops, etc. It's not going to change anything when it comes to firearms.
Driver's Licenses don't stop car thieves, armed robbers, rapists or murderers...or, just plain stupid people. You've already shot down your own argument.
I don't even have to revert back to the Constitutional argument on that one although Panther might find it necessary to do so for the record.
We have 50,000+ highway deaths here annually, I don't see where your argument holds water when it comes to firearms and that is not even considering EVERY TIME a vehicle is used in the commission of a crime, stolen, borrowed or bought, it must be in the millions annually.
I'm glad cars lock so not just anyone can get it and drive. For most people, those who are reasonable and responsible, getting a driver's license isn't much of a problem. Neither is making sure the cars are "road worthy" and getting them licensed.
Yeah, car locks keep children out of vehicles and having a locking ignition does same and that's about it in the real world, LeAnn.
Licensing schemes for firearms ownership will just be one more way to hold the Citizen upside down and shake them for pocket change and it will be one more thing that they can keep adding things to so they can administratively ban firearms.
I don't see why guns should be any different.
Just showed you a few reasons why, I'm sure I have not changed your mind, I'm not trying to. It's written for forum lurkers who have not decided, not you.
They can decide for themselves who has presented the better argument.
A reasonable and responsible sane gun owner should have no difficulty getting a license and waiting for a "cooling off" period before getting their weapon.
That would be true except I cannot trust politicians with my Civil Rights because they have lied to me so many times in the past as to what their real intentions are. When they speak before an antigun organization, they say they are using these things as stepping stones, the camel's nose under the tent, so to speak.
Then they come and tell other people that they don't really want to ban firearms and they put forth arguments that are, on the face of them, "reasonable" as yours is.
They lie their ass off.
As for a waiting period. I think their value is overblown personally. I read this pamphlet from a Lawyer's Organization that stated a woman should exit the kitchen immediately because most women who are killed in domestic violence are killed in the kitchen, by a knife found in the same place.
In the heat of the moment, they don't need to go get a firearm to do the deed.
But, I already have a couple firearms, if they make me wait a few days, I don't care, I just think they are one more scheme to jump through and don't have much of an effect on crime or anything else.
There should be reasonable waivers for that wait if legitimate and immediate need is shown. I know there are in my state. Those licenses, I think, should be reviewed regularly...for those who become dangerous and incompetent. Just like driver's licenses.
That's funny. I never knew that any State had a review board when you went to renew your Driver's License to test your competency. You go in and pay your $25 bones or whatever, get another picture taken and have to deal with a snotty State Employee. Oh, yeah, you get your eyes checked too. So, I have no idea what you are talking about.
I think if you have epilepsy, you have to notify them so a Doctor who is a Specialist can review your case.
I've heard many arguments from all sides. They don't matter to me.
That's obvious.
The Constitutional argument doesn't convince me.
You're not the first liberal to look at the Bill of Rights as a buffet table of items that you can either choose to agree with or casually disregard. You will not be the last, either.
The interpretation of the "right to bear arms" has been under debate for two centuries and I don't expect any definitive answer will ever be determined.
Really? Two centuries? Let's see, it started in earnest in 1934 with the National Firearms Act of the same year. Before that, it was basically a non-issue, unlike the revisionists of today, people back then knew what the deal was.
The whole thing is just too vague and/or manipulatable...like statistics, hypothetical analogies, and various stories. Arguments can be made to support all but the most ludicrous interpretations. What is ludicrous is probably debatable too.
Have you ever read any of the writings of Madison, Jefferson or Tench Coxe? Perhaps things would be much more clear to you. There is nothing vague about this issue or that Amendment. It's crystal clear, especially when you take the time to do a little research, but I would not expect someone who simply does not like firearms to do that.
I try to think things out for myself. Other people making their case don't mean much in the end if it doesn't make sense to me.
OK! That is the best argument for organized ignorance I have ever heard, but OK.
I follow a quote from Buddha on most things... "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
And that is one of the greatest arguments for organized, personal delusions I have ever heard. My Son is convinced that he can do any number of things that can injure him. His ability to reason is in question because he is almost seven years old.
Lucky for me, he is not a Buddhist or I would be in trouble, so would he.
I still haven't figured out (or heard) a justification that I agree with for anyone other than law enforcement and military to own assault riffles or assault weapons, however you name them.
Rawanda/Rwanda, however it is spelled. I don't have to run and get machinegunned, nor do I have to stand still and be hacked to death with a machete.
Y'all are pretty cool, likeable people and generally nice too, regardless of your views. I can live with the differences of opinion. It's America, well for many of us. We're entitled to disagree.
LeAnn
You don't strike me as being malicious. Just very wrong or undereducated in your views. Perhaps your dislike of guns has caused a prejudice that does not allow you to see the truth and has clouded your "common sense" that you so eloquently states in the Buddhist comment, eh?
Now, on to Mr. Heartburn!
jorvik wrote:
The only reason that I have come into this debate ( if it can be called that), is because of the spurious lies and nonsense spoken about my Country's laws...
We'll see in a minute buddy.
...by people who do not understand them, have no legal background do not even reside in my country...I am extremely disappointed that you are one of these people.
Why should we not judge your country's laws when you judge ours? Who do you think you are? You and your country is above questioning and yet you come in here and run your mouth, mindless yammering about our country's laws and you don't live here either. There, we're even if nothing else.
What hubris.
Next abomination.
You are correct, all guns are not illegal, but you have to be incredibly wealthy to afford to jump through all of the hoops in order to have one and they are so severely restricted as to be useless.
You also seem to imply that people carried guns prior to this for self defence, or owned them for that purpose, they didn't.
Uh, yes they did, but that was over 100 years ago for the most part. That is when it was more common.
AS to knives, it has always been illegal to carry anything that could be used as a weapon, even a hammer....if it is going to be used as a weapon.
There have been offensive weapons laws passed recently that would prosecute an INNOCENT person for using ANYTHING in DEFENSE. PERIOD.
Nobody in England has the " Right" to carry a knife for self protection.
No British Subject has a right to carry ANYTHING for Self-defense, everything is considered an "offensive weapon" even when carried for Self-defense or used in that act. You are not even allowed to carry O.C. Pepper Spray there because the criminal has a right to victimize you and you have no right to stop them.
Proof of my statement?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/ ... ory=403287
The story has now been removed and now available through subscription only I believe.
Here are some great tidbits.
From the article:
Government lawyers say burglars 'need protection'
By Robert Verkaik, Legal Affairs Correspondent
05 May 2003
Government lawyers trying to keep the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin behind bars will tell a High Court judge tomorrow that burglars are members of the public who must be protected from violent householders.
The case could help hundreds of criminals bring claims for damages for injury suffered while committing offences.
In legal papers seen by The Independent, Home Office lawyers dispute Mr Martin's contention that he poses no risk to the public because he only represents a threat to burglars and other criminals who trespass on his property.
They say: "The suggestion ... that the Parole Board was not required to assess the risk posed by Mr Martin to future burglars or intruders (on the grounds that they do not form part of the public at large) is remarkable."
"It cannot possibly be suggested that members of the public cease to be so whilst committing criminal offences, and whilst society naturally condemns, and punishes such persons judicially, it can not possibly condone their (unlawful) murder or injury."
A recent report by the Law Commission, which advises ministers on proposed changes to the law, argued that judges had been too willing to reject criminals' claims for damages. The commission insisted that "even a criminal who has committed a serious offence" must be allowed to exercise their civil rights. In recent years, the courts have accepted a number of arguments to defeat actions brought by criminals on the basis of the principle that "crime should not pay".
Legal experts say the case for treating criminals as ordinary litigants will have been boosted by the arguments raised by the Home Office lawyers in Martin's case.
But Oliver Letwin, the shadow Home Secretary, said the rights of the victim needed to be addressed. "There certainly seems to be an imbalance [between the householder and burglar] made clear by the fact that burglars can sue for damage done to them in the course of committing a crime. We've put forward an amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill which would rebalance the law in the appropriate way."
Norman Brennan, a serving police officer and the director of the Victims of Crime Trust, said that, by committing crime, burglars gave up "any rights". He added: "The public in this country are sick and tired of all these organisations pandering to the offender. Burglary is a despicable offence." He said: "sensible and reasonable" members of the public knew that, when criminal committed crime, they were putting themselves at risk.
Martin, 59, wants the court to order the Parole Board to reconsider its decision that he is not a suitable prisoner for early release. He was sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering 16-year-old Fred Barras at his Norfolk farmhouse, Bleak House, in August 1999 but his conviction was later reduced to manslaughter by the Court of Appeal when he was given a five-year prison sentence.
A second burglar shot by Martin, Brendan Fearon, was granted legal aid to sue him for damages. Fearon's claim was thrown out by Nottingham County Court last month.
Martin's barristers, Bitu Bhalla and Tony Baldry, of One Essex Court chambers in London, will tell the judge tomorrow that their client's application "concerns the liberty of the citizen which is a matter of paramount concern in English law". They will tell Mr Justice Kay that the Parole Board failed to acknowledge the true extent of Martin's remorse or properly consider the risk he posed to the public.
In Martin's application for judicial review, his lawyers argue: "The risk that has to be assessed in Mr Martin's case is any risk of the use of excessive force when he is either burgled or attacked in his home."
Martin's solicitor, James Saunders, says that this risk is significantly diminished since he no longer owns a gun and has agreed to fit an air-raid siren to his home that "could be heard all over the Fens".
The court will decide tomorrow whether to grant Martin a full review hearing. He is due for release at the end of July.
You can have the place where you live.
Isn't that great? A rapist in Great Britain has equal rights to the woman he wants to rape.
Lovely place. Burglars, armed robbers and murderers...what a wonderful way of thinking!
Don,
Why have you got a picture of a swiss army knife and a kubotan on your site alongside the story about self defence?.....you seem to be implying that a swiss army knife is Illegal here in the UK...it isn't.
Perhaps if you would learn to tell the truth for a change you would have said that was part of a warning about CARRYING KNIVES IN BRITAIN.
You're just a liar, that's why I think you should be banned from the forum. I never said Swiss Army Knives were illegal in Britain. I warned people that using one to defend their own life would land them in prison with the same sorts of people they wanted to defend against.
Nice place you have there.
You are not allowed to carry a simple pocketknife with "no good reason."
If you should be lucky enough to use it to save your own life, you will be arrested, period.
As to crime in the UK soaring, what sort of crime do you mean? certainly credit card crime is on the increase......street crime is on the decline because of special units that have been set up to deal with it ..one of which I work for, I would think I have my finger a bit closer to the pulse than you...
Now, everything becomes crystal clear.
If street crime, especially that involving guns, is on the decline, then you would admit to lying about seeing gun injuries and deaths "ever day" as you said above?
Self Defence is perfectly legal here, but naturally every case is looked at on it's merits...for example you are not allowed to shoot a fleeing burglar in the back. However it would be legal to kill somebody in self defence, you would just have to demonstrate that you had used reasonable force.
You have a right to defend yourself with your bare hands. In a world of weapons that will exist no matter what law you pass because criminals do not obey laws to begin with, the right is empty.
You are not allowed to use an equalizer which means the big eat the little there, the armed eat the unarmed.
Nice place, again, you can have it, we don't want it. You don't give a damn about the victims you create there.
I cannot find the one article I had where British Police were sending out greeting cards or Christmas cards to criminals warning them that they were being watched and to behave themselves.
Given that you have now stated that you are a part of "policing" Britain, that now makes perfect sense as to how it happened.