What happened to the military??

[IJ]

Here's a few small comments to prove that you're not reading what you reply to, so there's no reason for me to further reply to you:

1) "You think this war is justified, why don't you enlist and give them a hand?"

Well, review my comments. They've been limited to your fantasy world on social services. I've said zilch about the war except a line or two about oil pumping. I actually have big issues with how this war came to be, although that's a far cry from dumping this mess on the Iraqi citizens to sort out, which seems to be your plan.

2) "And to say you went 21 [actually 20] years without pay is hard to believe. Tell us all how you managed that one."

Easy. I went k-12 then did 4 years of college and 4 of med school. It was the first year after that that I was making < minimum wage with my doctorate. That wasn't all that complicated, was it? If I hadn't had three part time jobs in college and additional work in residency, I'd be pretty sad right now. [PS I'm not whining, I made my choice and am glad I did].

Mike, I too would like to see that extra billion going to good places. I just don't want you to be surprised if when money is diverted as you see fit, there are still very sad stories coming from a world of poverty, drugs, and mental illness you seem not to understand. Dollars can HELP but they will not eliminate poor decision making, insanity, and addiction. But good luck out there. Meanwhile, much as you and I may believe this war was launched on shady rationales, it makes very little long term sense to advocate islamofascist anarchy over oil wells that drive the 1 billion in taxes you would redirect and that could finance the mother of all jihads against us.

[Bill Glasheen]

Meanwhile, much as you and I may believe this war was launched on shady rationales, it makes very little long term sense to advocate islamofascist anarchy over oil wells that drive the 1 billion in taxes you would redirect and that could finance the mother of all jihads against us.

Well said.

********************

2Green

I hear you. It's just a little testy in the room right now...

********************

Stryke

I appreciate what you are trying to say.

I take the WMD thing off the table with Mike, because no matter how many threads we have on the subject, he's going to say Nu uh!!! Take it off the table, and we can talk about all the other STATED reasons (source: Colin Powell's testimony to the U.N.) why the U.S. went to Iraq.

There is a certain large group that didn't and never will like the fact that the U.S. went to Iraq. Short of 60 tons of anthrax, nerve gas, and a few nuclear power plants making weapons-grade plutonium, they are going to wag their fingers at us and call the effort an act of the devil. What-ever...

Me? I don't really think the WMD thing is a bust. Saddam already had them, and we cleaned up a lot of them. We (and he) still can't account for all the WMDs that we knew were there from his own records. Where are they all now? Good question. Why did he dick around with the U.N. after so many resolutions? Good question, although I think I know why. First, he wanted to prove to his Arab neighbors that the U.N. was irrelevant and he could thumb his nose at his neigbors. Second, he wanted to show his strength partly to scare off his enemies (Iraq), and partly because some of the Muslim world respects and wants this. Meanwhile, it was suicide. It's like waving a red cape in front of a bull. His choice...

What we DID know for a fact though is: 1) He made plenty of WMDs in the past, 2) his own people stated he had every intention of restarting his programs as soon as he could, and 3) elements of al qaeda (including WMD specialist Zarqawi) had entered Iraq and were setting up shop. The peacenicks can demand a smoking gun. Me? That alone is all I need to execute a preemptive attack.

But wait, there is PLENTY more... For another thread. Many of us have hashed and rehashed all the reasons for stomping on Sadaam and the Baathists, and attacking the terrorist training camps. WMD alone isn't enough - particularly when you consider that the U.S. is the number 1 owner and producer of WMD and WMD materials. Saddam worked REALLY hard at being the bastard that he was, and deserving what he got.

********************

Mike

I'll spar more if you still want to play. But I do not pretend any more that you are listening.

First... You need to understand that you piss off a lot of people putting their lives in the line in Iraq when you talk trash about what's going on over there. A lot of people have done a pretty damn amazing job already, considering Baathists and outsiders want us all dead. Elections will happen. Most of the provinces in the country are getting along just fine. But you make it all out to be a disaster. So expect to get a LOT of schit from people who know a lot more about what really is going on in Iraq than you do. Especially the ones getting shot at, or ones who are in weekly contact with those getting shot at.

Second - the Country Joe and the Fish song was about Vietnam and the draft. There is no draft, and this is no Vietnam. In fact in an interview just this evening of a soldier who just came over from Iraq, he instead compared it to the end of WWII where there were still extremist elements left over in Germany and Japan (still are in Germany, BTW...), and killed quite a few troops before the final good outcomes. The difference - he said - is that we didn't have an anti-military press over there after WWII.

But go ahead and sing it...

One two three what are we fighting for
I don't know and I don't give a damn
Next stop is Vietnam
I said five, six, seven, open up the Pearly Gates
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee we're all gonna die.

I did that from memory, Mike. Too bad you can't hear me sing it...

Let's see, what else do I want to tackle in your diatribe...

<<did not go to war just for WMD.>>

Wait a minute Bill, you can't have it both ways. Either WMD was the reason or it wasn't. PLUS, it's not just me that can't overcome it, it's the rest of the world. You can try to fluff it away if you wish, but it won't go. Start accepting it.

I won't try to discuss the subtleties of foreign policy and decision making when you don't want to hear the answer, Mike. You are free to watch me discuss it with others.

Sorry I can't accept "it", whatever the hell "it" is. Something to do with 'I was wrong, you were right, we are bad.' Fuk it, Mike. No way, Jose. Bite me, France. Nothing subtle to those that don't want to listen.

<<And GW did not lie when he spoke of WMD in Iraq.>>

"I did not have sex with that women."

Hey, YOU are the one that loves the man who can't keep Willie in his britches.

The world, Bush, and Blair have already discussed the evidence of EXISTING WMDs that we all had and were never found. I won't bore you with details of decision making, predictive models, type I and type II errors, and such. Instead, I'll reference a fairly concrete example from Goleman, author of Emotional Intelligence. It's better to mistake a stick for a snake than the other way around.

<<And yes, we ARE doing something about Sudan. We went over there, and pleaded the case to the U.N. Did France? >>

Did we really plead? Like on our hands and knees? I wonder what Colin Powell looks like when he's pleading.

You want more liberal guilt, Mike. We don't accept your standards.

Last I checked, they are getting results. Did France?

Check out these forums, Mike. I complained bitterly about what was going on in Sudan. Did you?

<<Let's not deny anything. People are getting killed. The place is a bit of a mess. But people were getting killed before, and - what's worse - they had no hope. These days, many of them have hope. I saw a pretty neat "B" movie with the boys the other day - Flight of the Phoenix . In it, there was an interesting line at a moment of truth. It spoke of the need for hope and for a direction in life. If nothing else, we all need to have and give that hope, and a process for achieving that hope.>>

The only difference Bill is that it wasn't Americans getting killed before.

So?

************

To all those service people putting their asses on the line

Way to go! Great job. I support you! Keep it up.



And most important of all, be safe and come home intact.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Bill I agree there were plenty of good reasons to go in .

I`m in the group that wished we`d finishd him off in the first gulf war , maybe the world will learn from that .


But I also agree Saddam wasnt likely to say he was defensless with Iran keeping a close eye on things .

Tricky Buisness

And I agree no matter what your politics or beleifs the folks over there doing there best deserve all the support and respect they can get .

[cxt]

Mike

First, No in most cases we did not fire back.

A common complaint of the folks flying the planes then was that were under orders NOT to take direct action.

2nd, your not being logically consistant here.

You asked if they "fired back" as if that makes a difference--it does not.

Firing upon planes patrolling the "no fly" zone is a direct violation of the treaty signed by Saddam at the close of the first Gulf War.

A violation that quite specifically is an act of war.

Even WITHOUT the signed agreement--shooting at the patrolling planes is ALSO considered an act of war.


Oh, by the by the continued murder of civil authority--policemen and leaders in Iraq is just more proof as to the REAL aims of the terrorists.

Their attempt to blow up a SCHOOL full of Iraqi children should have tipped you off.

[mikemurphy]

Ian,

<<Here's a few small comments to prove that you're not reading what you reply to, so there's no reason for me to further reply to you:>>

It's hard to read so much that doesn't make common sense. Sorry.


<<Well, review my comments. They've been limited to your fantasy world on social services. I've said zilch about the war except a line or two about oil pumping. I actually have big issues with how this war came to be, although that's a far cry from dumping this mess on the Iraqi citizens to sort out, which seems to be your plan. >>

I guess it was that one or two lines I was thinking about. (Fantasy world?)

<<Easy. I went k-12 then did 4 years of college and 4 of med school. It was the first year after that that I was making < minimum wage with my doctorate. That wasn't all that complicated, was it? If I hadn't had three part time jobs in college and additional work in residency, I'd be pretty sad right now. [PS I'm not whining, I made my choice and am glad I did]. >>

Nope, whine away, it's the way it has to be done in your chosen profession.


<<Mike, I too would like to see that extra billion going to good places. I just don't want you to be surprised if when money is diverted as you see fit, there are still very sad stories coming from a world of poverty, drugs, and mental illness you seem not to understand. Dollars can HELP but they will not eliminate poor decision making, insanity, and addiction. But good luck out there. Meanwhile, much as you and I may believe this war was launched on shady rationales, it makes very little long term sense to advocate islamofascist anarchy over oil wells that drive the 1 billion in taxes you would redirect and that could finance the mother of all jihads against us.>>

This is where I get a real laugh. Do you realize how much this country's deficit is? They are not spending our tax dollars like it is right there in front of them. They are spending what they don't have that you, me, our children, and our children's children will have to deal with. That's poor decision making.



Bill Sensei,

<<I'll spar more if you still want to play. But I do not pretend any more that you are listening. >>

Bill, I'm listening, but I'm just buying the krap you're selling.

<<First... You need to understand that you piss off a lot of people putting their lives in the line in Iraq when you talk trash about what's going on over there.>>

Bill, I care so little for people who are "pissed" off at me for stating my mind about an unjust action that will go nowhere. Many of them think the same way I do, so the guilt trip is not working here. Give me the names and emails of all those people over there I'm "pissing" off Bill and I'll explain it all to them.


<< A lot of people have done a pretty damn amazing job already, considering Baathists and outsiders want us all dead. Elections will happen. Most of the provinces in the country are getting along just fine. But you make it all out to be a disaster. So expect to get a LOT of schit from people who know a lot more about what really is going on in Iraq than you do. Especially the ones getting shot at, or ones who are in weekly contact with those getting shot at.>>

It is a disaster no matter how you make it shine. Just read the newspaper or watch the news any day of the week. Oh, I forgot, any news agency that doesn't espouse your philosophy is considered liberal press.

<<Second - the Country Joe and the Fish song was about Vietnam and the draft. There is no draft, and this is no Vietnam.>>

I know what the song was about, but the quote worked really well with what you guys are saying.

I did that from memory, Mike. Too bad you can't hear me sing it...

<<Let's see, what else do I want to tackle in your diatribe... >>

I'm afraid to ask



<<I won't try to discuss the subtleties of foreign policy and decision making when you don't want to hear the answer, Mike. You are free to watch me discuss it with others.>>

I've heard your answer and I still can't believe you fluff it off so easily when the rest of the world doesn't. BUT, I will watch you and the rest of the Republican Caucus "discuss" it. I always like a good laugh.


<<Nothing subtle to those that don't want to listen. >>

Or those who can't accept an opinion other than than own? Hmm?

<<Hey, YOU are the one that loves the man who can't keep Willie in his britches.>>

Hey, I just love when a president looks in the camera and lies, don't you?

<<Last I checked, they are getting results. Did France? >>

You forget. I'm with you when France is concerned.

<<Check out these forums, Mike. I complained bitterly abut what was going on in Sudan. Did you? >>

Didn't see it. Must of got some real good feedback though from the amount of people who would give a damn (probably count them on one hand).


<<So?>>

My point is that you are seemingly so indifferent about sending our men and women over there to save the world from terrorism. These are Americans, and I care to the point I'm willing to say that they shouldn't be over there getting shot at and killed for the wrong reasons.

mike

[IJ]

Much as I suspected, nothing worth replying to. Yaaawwwwwwwwnnn. I will just remind you that I haven't advocated enormous deficits, and take my leave.

[benzocaine]

This is where I get a real laugh. Do you realize how much this country's deficit is? They are not spending our tax dollars like it is right there in front of them. They are spending what they don't have that you, me, our children, and our children's children will have to deal with. That's poor decision making.

That's what disturbs me so much about the direction our country has gone in lately

Yeah ,yeah we're at war.. and war costs money but GOD it's sickening to think about the cost of all this.

What ever happened to Iraq paying us back with discount price oil? Oh yeah, the current administration changed their minds. Too bad, because that argument and the idea of getting attacked with anthrax is what made me decide to back the invasion of Iraq.

The whole situation ***** Friends and family are risking their lives, money is being spent like a shopaholic with a platinum credit card, and our kids will get the debt. Meanwhile a social security system many of us have paid into our whole lives (money we earned BTW) is going to go broke, and we are paying to train Iraqis to go to school while my wife and I have to take out loans to pay for hers.

I think that we should have done as the shirt says Kick their ass and take their Gas. (yes... I am a bad person ) I'm kidding. But SOMEONE should be looking at the cost and trying to do something about it.

[Panther]

What bothers me about the "deficit" OR the "debt" is the very nature of HOW it is created out of thin air.

Charles Lindbergh, Sr (the father of Charles Lindy Lindbergh) saw what the power brokers, international bankers, etc were up to in advance and actually wrote a book about it. He wrote about how they were going to steal our country through a paper fraud of unimaginable proportions... AND, they've done it. The book, for those who are interested, was first published in 1913, but is available in reprint. It's called, "Banking and Currency and the Money Trust" and is a real eye-opener given the fact that it was written as it was all being stolen away from us. Part of the book details how the international bankers forced Congress to pass certain resolutions through all manner of treachery. His account is also documented in other official archive documents.

[Gene DeMambro]

he instead compared it to the end of WWII where there were still extremist elements left over in Germany and Japan (still are in Germany, BTW...), and killed quite a few troops before the final good outcomes.

If we are referring to Germany prior to the end of the war, then perhaps. But if we are referring to Sec. Rumsfeld's reference to "Wolf Packs", that has been proven to be false and a factoid.

I did that from memory, Mike. Too bad you can't hear me sing it...

No, but you play a mean mandolin, Bill!

Who am I calling out? Certainly not my intent. Can you repost or redirect me to a case of that?

From your own post, 26 Dec 2004 3:26, on this discussion:

Nice response Ian. I expected you to pick up on that statement. VCU Medical Center in Richmond continually runs in the red by providing the same services you mention.

Mike must be referring to what goes on in his neighborhood.

The Bush admin just released an additional $100 million in grants for fuel and heating for the needy.

In Richmond the power company sponsers[sic] heat share and matches gifts to help keep the power on in low income housing. In fact, VA Power will not cut off someones[sic] heat because of non payment in the winter, another big write down that we support as customers.

Sure glad I live in Richmond.

Rich

Gene

PS – I’m moving on to greener pastures.

[RACastanet]

Gene said: "PS – I’m moving on to greener pastures."

Come on down. The weather this week is in a balmy 55 to 60 degree range. Unemployment is very low. In areas such as Charlottesville and Roanoke unemployment is around 2%. Taxes are low and housing is affordable. A recent study by someone put Richmond housing right on the median for home values.

And you can play with Bill sensei and myself.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

That was Steve Goss's mandolin, Gene. He offered to let me play it. First time I picked one up. I was fooling around with playing that number from Led Zepplin IV. Fun stuff.... Anyhow as my wife sometimes reminds me, I cannot be shamed. Makes me a good researcher, because I'm not afraid to try something new, no matter how badly I look doing it.

Speaking of being a researcher...

If we are referring to Germany prior to the end of the war, then perhaps. But if we are referring to Sec. Rumsfeld's reference to "Wolf Packs", that has been proven to be false and a factoid.

...sorry, Gene. False because you said so? Nice try...

Been over to Germany lately, Gene? I have. There is STILL tension from the fascists rearing their ugly heads now and then. The town symbol of Regensburg looks a lot like the eagle of The Third Reich, and you often see the anti-Nazis vandalizing pictures of it. Then you have the anti-anti-Nazis trying to tell the PC anti-Nazis 'No, idiot, that's the town symbol of Regensburg!' This in the 21st century, Gene.

Yes, we lost men both in Japan and Germany after the end of WWII. The transition wasn't all rosey, and all elements of the former regimes didn't just give up and go along with things. Our biggest salvation with Germany was their getting involved in the struggle between Washington and Moscow. It was a major distraction that snapped their heads to attention.

Mike and Ben

The deficit has as much to do with 9/11 and the Clinton recession as it has to do with Iraq. And when it comes to all this military spending, consider that Clinton's lack of spending on national security (taking care of things in Afghanistan when it could have been done on the cheap) caused a good deal of that. It's like when you own a car and fail to spend money changing the oil. Pay me now, or pay me big time later on.

Reasonable people can and will disagree with where money is best spent, and what are the best investments. I'll spot you that. But it's disingenuous laying all the deficit issues on GW. I don't think so.

For example... My father tells me that after the Bush tax cuts, that he paid a lower tax rate (for tax year 2003), and yet made more money and paid 25% more taxes. EVERYBODY won. This is something that many folks who don't specialize in business (as my father does) will never understand. Remember - GW got the Hahvahd MBA. He got all that wonderful Boston education and ran with it.

I'm a fiscal conservative as well. But remember - I spent the first 30 something years of my life engaging in deficit spending. (It's called investing in an education) Some money is well spent. Again, reasonable people can disagree on the particulars.

Imagine the deficits we'll have when/if someone successfully lets off a "dirty bomb" in a major city in this country. Pay me now...

Mike

My point is that you are seemingly so indifferent about sending our men and women over there to save the world from terrorism. These are Americans, and I care to the point I'm willing to say that they shouldn't be over there getting shot at and killed for the wrong reasons.

Nobody wants Americans losing lives for "the wrong reasons." Obviously. See the point I just made above, Mike. I already saw what it was like having 3000+ innocent people from all over the world (men, women, and children) losing their lives. Me? If it means avoiding that in the future, I'd a lot rather have trained men and women instead putting themselves in harm's way. These folks sign up to do that, and - better yet - they hit back. Too bad our Afghanistan-trained al qaeda buddy Zarqawi lost his killing house in Fallujah. Can't wait to see him go the way of Uday and Kusay.

<<First... You need to understand that you piss off a lot of people putting their lives in the line in Iraq when you talk trash about what's going on over there.>>

Bill, I care so little for people who are "pissed" off at me for stating my mind about an unjust action that will go nowhere. Many of them think the same way I do, so the guilt trip is not working here. Give me the names and emails of all those people over there I'm "pissing" off Bill and I'll explain it all to them.

No need to do that, Mike. One of our Uechi brothers is over in Iraq as we type. And he visits these forums, in case you didn't notice. I'll share a PM with you.

Bill,
greetings from Iraq. I read the threads regarding Rich spraying you. Good on ya! Takes balls to do that, and I'm proud of you. I totally get the idea, obviously. You are one dedicated sob.
-I read the forums when I can - good distraction for a few minutes. Try to clear my head with reading a book (currently working a novel by Newt Gingrich (Grant heads East). Interesting.
-Keep up the good training and say hello to my friend Rich. Another dedicated SOB.
Respectfully,
Drew Doolin

From another thread on Van's forum...

Greetings from the Al Anbar Province. Thanks for your interest in our Battalion website, and your support to all of us here in country.

I can tell you that our little site is giving the Moms and Dads of my Marines and Sailors a sense of calm. All that they visualize is what they see on the news, which doesn't accurately reflect things throughout the Area of Operations.

The press not accurately reflecting the truth? Imagine that!

Here's Drew's Website, Mike.

Say hi to Drew for me. Speak your mind, Mike. With 100% sincerity...I defend your right to do so. And so does Drew. In his case, literally.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Great reply Bill.

Here is one comment of note from this month's update from Drew:

"A topic of much media interest lately has been armor on vehicles. Rest assured that all of our military vehicles that go “outside the wire” beyond the base where we live and work are armored and have ballistic glass. On the occasion when we must use non-military vehicles to deliver supplies that require special handling that cannot be accomplished with military vehicles, we take special care to protect these vehicles within our convoys. We are not suffering from the shortages that were reported in the media."

And what could be better than being considered a "dedicated SOB" by a warrior such as Drew.

Rich

[mikemurphy]

Ian,

Yaaaawn yourself. It's there in the writing to see.


Bill,


<<Ian,The deficit has as much to do with 9/11 and the Clinton recession as it has to do with Iraq.>>

It was only a matter of time before you brought up this Bill. I was saying to someone the other day that a good conservative like yourself will find a way to blame Clinton. Spin it any way you want it, regardless of what you thought of the guy, his years in office were the best years economcally for the US. Although the recession had its beginnings in Clinton's last year, it was right there for GW to stop. Fact is he didn't, and like his hero, RR, he's well on his way to 3x the National Deficit from what it was when he took office. He's done nothing to bring it down on a yearly basis, or on a grand scale.


<< And when it comes to all this military spending, consider that Clinton's lack of spending on national security (taking care of things in Afghanistan when it could have been done on the cheap) caused a good deal of that. It's like when you own a car and fail to spend money changing the oil. Pay me now, or pay me big time later on. >>

Stop it Bill. You of all people know that nothing is done "on the cheap" where the military is concerned. Because BC didn't jump into Afghanistan doesn't mean squat. Is the Republican Caucus 100% sure he would have gotten bin Laden, and thus, no 9/11. Wishful thinking. If we're on that subject, what if GB had taken out Saddam in 91? Would have been a 9/11? If we use your logic, then no. BTW, if I don't change the oil, I don't blame the person who sold it to me.

<<Reasonable people can and will disagree with where money is best spent,>>

Since when does the word government and reasonable get put together?

<<But it's disingenuous laying all the deficit issues on GW. I don't think so.>>

You know Bill, one of the great things about being president (no, it's not the money) is that you get all the credit when something goes right, and all the blame when it doesn't. Whatever happened to Harry Truman "the buck stops here." You GW apologists are amazing with your spin.

<<For example... My father tells me that after the Bush tax cuts, that he paid a lower tax rate (for tax year 2003), and yet made more money and paid 25% more taxes. EVERYBODY won. This is something that many folks who don't specialize in business (as my father does) will never understand. Remember - GW got the Hahvahd MBA. He got all that wonderful Boston education and ran with it. >>

Education and GW are another two words I wouldn't use together. Check what he has done with Social Security? And tax cuts when you are running a deficit? If he owned a business, he'd be filing for bankruptcy. Oh, he's already done that. Go figure.

<<I'm a fiscal conservative as well. But remember - I spent the first 30 something years of my life engaging in deficit spending. (It's called investing in an education) Some money is well spent. Again, reasonable people can disagree on the particulars. >>

Did you pay it back, or in the process of paying it back? Apples and oranges here. They would have never allowed you to take so much that you would not have been able to pay it back.

<<Imagine the deficits we'll have when/if someone successfully lets off a "dirty bomb" in a major city in this country. Pay me now... >>


What if, what if, what if. You'd be out of business as well Bill. You can't run a country being scared. I'm more afraid of an asteroid hitting the Earth than a dirty bomb hitting Richmond. How much money was put in last year's budget for that?

<<Nobody wants Americans losing lives for "the wrong reasons." Obviously. See the point I just made above, Mike. I already saw what it was like having 3000+ innocent people from all over the world (men, women, and children) losing their lives. Me? If it means avoiding that in the future, I'd a lot rather have trained men and women instead putting themselves in harm's way. These folks sign up to do that, and - better yet - they hit back. Too bad our Afghanistan-trained al qaeda buddy Zarqawi lost his killing house in Fallujah. Can't wait to see him go the way of Uday and Kusay.>>

Weren't our guys trained in Vietnam? Didn't they hit back? Wasn't that conflict designed to stop the spread of communism so we wouldn't have to do it again? I have no problem with our military fighting the right fight, but that's the point right there....the right fight. This is not it and it won't settle anything. I'll bet you that dinner anytime on that. I just hope it doesn't take 55,000 (approx) dead American soldiers to prove it to somebody.


<<The press not accurately reflecting the truth? Imagine that! >>

Let's see, all the press that is over there are wrong, and Drew is right. Sounds like a conspiracy.

Bill, I've met Drew and he's a great guy with mucho (I didn't spell that wrong Rich, it's Spanish) integrity. If he monitors these forums, then I invite him to join in on the conversation. I won't go South. Instead of starting a private conversation, let's keep in the open.

mike

[RACastanet]

"They would have never allowed you to take so much that you would not have been able to pay it back."

This is not at all correct. Banks repeatedly pour money into bad businesses. Think US Airways right now.

The adage is "if you owe the bank $100,000 they own you. If you owe the bank $100,000,000, you own them. ( Also, think Donald Trump right here.)

In the case of US Air, the loans are secured by aircraft. Banks really do not want to own aircraft. They want US Air to suceed. At some point however, the banks will own a bunch of aircraft. Maybe in two weeks in fact.

"Check what he has done with Social Security?"

Bush's idea for partial privatization is a wonderful idea for a long term solution. In fact, quite a few of the left leaning European countries have aready gone this route as a 'third leg' in the chair to support retirees. This is not a short term fix like raising taxes as it will have a short term effect of increasing the cost of Social Security.

We nead to think long term on the SS issue. Those that want to continue the plan as is and just raise taxes will be the ones surprised when the end result is the same, just a little further down the road. In business we used to say: "If you keep on doing what you always did, you will always get what you always got."

Ronald Reagan's tax cuts, and I admit the resulting increase in the deficit, set the stage for the roaring 90s! Just like John Kennedy did, cutting taxes ultimately resulted in greater prosperity. Two presidents from different extremes of the political landscape have led the way.

Yes Mike, I caught the Spanish.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

You need to read my post, Mike. Read what I typed.

For example... My father tells me that after the Bush tax cuts, that he paid a lower tax rate (for tax year 2003), and yet made more money and paid 25% more taxes. EVERYBODY won. This is something that many folks who don't specialize in business (as my father does) will never understand.

Please don't make me type slower; I have stuff to do!

Indeed JFK - your hero and my father's - caused an incredible economic boom when he (gasp) LOWERED capital gains taxes.

The tax on capital gains directly affects investment decisions, the mobility and flow of risk capital... the ease or difficulty experienced by new ventures in obtaining capital, and thereby the strength and potential for growth in the economy.

- John F. Kennedy

My dad voted for and loved Kennedy. He began his third career as a stock broker just as JFK entered office. And thanks to JFK, my dad and the country benefitted tremendously.

My dad also voted for GW. Ya think??

Remember, Mike, this is Hahvahd MBA schit. Forget the "red states"; listen to your own Bostonians.

As for social security, well what the hell did GW do to screw it up? WAKE UP, MIKE!!!! I gave up on SS....oh...about 27 years ago. One of my specialties is epidemiology. I saw the baby boom population bulge long ago, and knew what was coming ahead. That's why I'm saving. Sure hope you are. In fact...it's that kind of wisdom that GW is trying to tap into. You see....the difference between me and the government is that I don't expect money to be there tomorrow if I spend it today. Yep...that's how social security works. It's all good and fine until the birth rate goes down and life expectancy increases. (Those damned doctors...) Oops!!! Now what are we going to do when we don't have a population large enough to support all these old fahts? You see...all our social security money is already spent and gone. Oops!!!

With GW's plan, a person gets to (gasp) actually SAVE that money and even invest it. Even a monkey can do better with money than the federal government.

GW messed up social security? Oh Mike, that's a good one!

Oh and yes, banks WILL loan students more than they can pay back. If I hadn't succeeded as well as I did and gotten a little bit of help here and there, I would have needed to declare bankruptcy big time. Instead, I took some risks, Mike. I could EASILY have failed. In fact I had negative net worth until I was in my early 40s.

As for Drew, well it's inappropriate for me to volunteer him for anything. Right now I think he's pretty busy doing his best to succeed in a mission that he believes in. And I believe in him, and others like him who sacrifice for me. It's MY prerogative, after all.

By the way, why do you keep talking about Vietnam? You remind me of other people my age who are stuck on the music of their generation. Scary...

- Bill