London - We are with you!

[Guest]

About time! Were you been Lee?

[Valkenar]

we should have showed Al Sadr and his goons whose the boss and in a really, REALLY, bad way.

Aside from any ethical concerns, one practical reason for not nuking things is the political fallout it would cause. I suspect the backlash from using nukes in Iraq would be fairly tremendous. Possibly to the point where we can't just smugly ignore it (EG, serious trade sanctions against us.).

[jorvik]

It's a bit like the London bombings, what do you do? you have a bus filled full of people, one of them is a suicide bomber, who is determined to die and take a lot of folks with him...............what do you do? what can you do?
These folks are all from different countries Saudis,moroccans,libyans.......and they don't wear hats with terrorist on them
Bill,
Re the wager.......gentleman's of course ( I'll buy you a drink if I'm wrong and vice versa.that is of course if we ever meet)
I'll give it till Christmas.christmas will be a trying time.when the bodycount gets a bit higher.war ( or rather the ensueing peace ) won't seem like such a good idea...............a bit like "freedom fries" really

[Guest]

we should have showed Al Sadr and his goons whose the boss and in a really, REALLY, bad way.

Aside from any ethical concerns, one practical reason for not nuking things is the political fallout it would cause. I suspect the backlash from using nukes in Iraq would be fairly tremendous. Possibly to the point where we can't just smugly ignore it (EG, serious trade sanctions against us.).

Which is:

a)why it didn't happen because I can assure you it was on the table.

b)why i'm not president of the United States!

[Bill Glasheen]

Tony

A man's got to know his limits... You're a better man for knowing yours.

We'll keep you as the pit bull; we need a few around. Other types will manage the leash.

Interesting thoughts, Ahmed. Remember that Iraq doesn't have to be a democracy. The most important thing is for it to be a representational government that recognizes the wishes of all significant minorities.

And I think you folks are right about Syria and Iran. Syria in particular seems to be the place where bad things are coming from. Iran already has gotten almost everything it wanted (from the days of Saddam) without firing a shot. At the end of the day, an Iran/Iraq relationship may not be a bad thing. There are many good people in Iran who'd like better representation and freedoms. The influence goes both ways. And both countries have Shia majorities.

But IMO the real freedom from insurgency will happen when Iraq's standing army and secuity agencies are strong enough to start dishing it back to Syria. Again, "influence" can go both ways... Time to put them on the defensive. And there's nothing more uniting - for better or for worse - than a well-defined external foe.

Time for the new government of Iraq to start presenting Syria's malevolent (in)action to the U.N. Let's get some disinfecting light of day on the crap, and give the troublemakers in that useless place something to occupy their time. That can be the preamble for "better" things to come.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

jorvik

There's often a morsel of truth in all wild stories. But what we have here from AP is far from the "doom and gloom" scenario you and The Mail projected earlier. Quite the opposite, this story suggests plans completely to turn over authority to Iraqis geographically where there are no problems. The overall strategy is to create an Iraqi government and Iraqi security forces to deal with Iraqi problems. Withdrawal then would be a sign of success as well as efforts on behalf of the US/UK to remove "excuses" for insurgent activity.

No matter what you do, you're going to get criticism from somewhere. One common criticism coming from Bush foes over here is that he didn't send over enough troops to do the job. On the other hand, many wise advisors pointed out that an extremely large, visible presence of U.S. military would create bad will and incite extremists in the region.

Better to do as Teddy Roosevelt advised - walk softly, and carry a big stick.

Iraq PM: Foreign Troops May Exit Some Cities
Tuesday, July 12, 2005
Associated Press

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraq's prime minister said Tuesday that U.S. and other foreign troops could begin handing over security to Iraqis in selected cities, although he opposes setting a timetable for the complete withdrawal of multinational forces.

{snip}

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari spoke to reporters alongside Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick, who arrived Tuesday from Jordan, where he and Iraqi officials signed four economic agreements.

Al-Jaafari said he opposed such a timetable "when we are not ready" to assume responsibility for defending the country against the insurgents. However, al-Jaafari added that security in many of Iraq's 18 provinces has improved so that Iraqi forces could assume the burden of maintaining order in cities there.

"We can begin with the process of withdrawing multinational forces from these cities to outside the city as a first step that encourages setting a timetable for the withdrawal process," al-Jaafari said. "We don't want to be surprised by a decision to withdraw at a time when we are not ready."

He didn't specify which cities where he felt the redeployment could occur.

{snip}

The Defense Department wants to pull some of its 135,000 troops out of Iraq in 2006, partly because the mission is stretching the Army and Marine Corps perilously thin as casualties mount. U.S. commanders believe the presence of a large U.S. force is generating tacit support for anti-American violence.

However, wide areas of northern and southern Iraq are largely unaffected by the insurgency, which is concentrated in Baghdad and the Sunni Arab heartland of central Iraq.

Last weekend, The Mail on Sunday newspaper of London published a leaked British government memorandum showing that Britain is considering scaling back its troop presence from 8,500 to 3,000 by the middle of next year, saving an estimated $1 billion annually.

The memo, marked "Secret — U.K. Eyes Only," and signed by Britain's Defense Secretary John Reid, spoke of a "strong U.S. military desire for significant force reductions."

"Emerging U.S. plans assume that 14 out of 18 provinces could be handed over to Iraqi control by early 2006," which would see the multinational force cut from 176,000 to 66,000.

On Monday, British officials confirmed the authenticity of the document. Prime Minister Tony Blair's official spokesman, who speaks on customary condition of anonymity, said the memo merely confirms the government's long-standing plan to train Iraqi forces and gradually hand over security responsibility.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

a picture tells a thousand words



Notice the pained expression on this soldiers face



Now, smile for the camera.......

[Bill Glasheen]

Akil

Tell me something.

1) Why are these pictures not showing up normally on this webpage?

2) Why is it that when I do drop the url into an IE window, that my Coroprate Security software designates it as a banned site?

Food for thought. Always consider the sources. What are the agendas here?

- Bill

[jorvik]

So, All the suicide bombers were English born and bred ...................very worrying

[Randy Pelletier]

Akil,

Those pictures were not appropriate for this discussion thread.

My thoughts are with those in London that have suffered loss and that we live under constant threat of losing loved ones through such horrific means. The intent of this thread was for us as a collective group to respect those losses and express our condolences towards that incident.

You have taken this totally offline and deflected this towards some other self serving need. Maybe this can be discussed on another post/forum where politics can come into play and you can debate your opinions but this was not the place.

I am shocked and disappointed that you did this.

Refer back to Bill's very first statement which I fully support!!

There's no excuse for intentionally killing innocent people to make a point. None! End of story.

READ THE THREAD TITLE AGAIN!

[benzocaine]

So, All the suicide bombers were English born and bred ...................very worrying

Yes it is. It makes you wonder about People born and bred in your own country.....

[Valkenar]

Akil
Food for thought. Always consider the sources. What are the agendas here?
- Bill

I think can be used other than for its intended purpose. Unless you think the pictures are doctored, does it really matter why whoever hosts them is doing so? If genuine, they either say something meaningful, or they don't. But I actually have to agree that this isn't really the place for these pictures, though I do think they aren't to be simply dismissed because we don't like the source.

[MikeK]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,3 ... 35,00.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/ ... 299086.ece

And Tony Blair promised to deport radical Muslim clerics who incite acts of terrorism. Way to go Tony. Deport there sorry butts to Club Gitmo.

In regards to one Gitmo guest...

The committee heard that interrogators told him his mother and sisters were prostitutes, forced him to wear a bra, forced him to wear a thong on his head, told him he was homosexual and said that other prisoners knew it.

So they dissed his moms and dressed him in drag and didn't even go as far with that as we did when my friend Doug passed out at his bachelor party.

[Bill Glasheen]

As a matter of fact, Justin, it does.

Pictures can be taken out of context. Pictures can also be taken which imply something that wasn't so. If ever you want to see numerous examples of both, just go to any supermarket checkout and look at the tabloids. Or look at the facial expressions used by "the other party" of a candidate in their negative advertising against him.

Moreover, I'm a pattern recognition guy, Justin. Before I look at the fruits of my labor (predictive models), I inspect my data and try FIRST to get a human view of the patterns. I haven't even seen the pictures, and yet Randy's response further confirms my knee-jerk suspicion that something wasn't right here. Hmm... How could I know all this, Justin?

Remember - DeBecker tells us not to ignore instincts and feelings. That's one of your more important tools in self defense. In various contexts, false positives and false negatives can have varying consequences - if you know what I mean.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

jorvik

I'm willing to spot you your beer here. I believe you were right - for the wrong reason. I see the situation very differently from the way you see it. But indeed the underlying facts were true. Both the U.S. and the U.K. are working to turn the keys over to Iraqis as soon as possible. No, that's not a bad thing. That's a very, very good thing.

Any beer you want will do - when we meet. First one's gotta be a good one.

So, All the suicide bombers were English born and bred

I've been thinking about this, jorvik. I've been thinking about the fact that these allegedly are Pakistanis born in the UK. I've been thinking about the fact that this was suicidal homicide bombings. I've been thinking about what kind of hate and ignorance people need to have inside to convince perfectly good young boys to blow themselves up - never mind leave a legacy of the murder of innocents. I've been thinking about Tony Blair's request for legislation to deal with hate speech.

Hmm...

Methinks the first think I'd do is follow the money. By hook or by crook, I would take every penny from every idiot who incited this violence. I don't want more laws to restrict speech, but I want people to be held accountable for the negative consequences of their speech.

It gets a bit more tricky when this goes international. On the other hand, where is the source of much of this hate speech? Where is Wahabism - for example - most prevelant? Hmm...

It's tricky, I know. I hate the white supremacists here, but I tolerate them so long as they abide by the law. I'd a lot rather know where these idiots are than ban their speech and flush them into the undeground.

Why not give these bozos a megaphone? Report their speech on websites, along with their names, addresses, phone numbers, etc., etc. "Inquiring" minds want to know! I'm all for the disinfecting light of day.

- Bill