The article and dvd are scheduled to become part of my new book. However, if Greg doesn't mind - I'll let him post the article. This thread has become quite long so perhaps he can begin a new thread with it.
Interesting. . . no one has submitted any video clips of their kyu and dan kumite performance.
As I stated earlier, I really like the drills because it is a great test of one's timing, balance and ability to react. From my many years of working with students of all abilities and skills, I've noticed that people who are good at the drills are also those who are very good at bunkai, sparring and do extremely well at the "realist" scenerio training we've had.
I don't buy the argument that because you have skills in performing a prearranged set of movements with all the attributes associated with these drills that you can't "short circuit" the prescribed moves with an action the situation calls for. Such logic would also claim that kata was harmful to real self-defense usage since kata contains many "prearranged" combined techniques that probably wouldn't be helpful as performed in any "real" situation.
Let discuss cooperative drills
Moderator: Available
Sensei,
Happy to post the article (unless posting it here means it doesn't go in the book - I was counting on those royalties
), unfortunately still in the field with no access to it. I should be back in about three days and can post it then.
Bill,
Ah, the "backing up in Uechi" issue... It's been discussed long and hard, and will undoubtedly continue to be debated. I tell students that the notion of always doing anything is nonsense (I use a different word...). I think I'm going to have a bumper sticker made up that says "Backing Up Happens."
Anyone who has been in any 'real world' situations who has never given any ground is either very good or very lucky. One of the things that I like about Kyu Kumite is that taught "correctly," it trains the student to "turn it around" on the attacker after having started off by retreating. Concepts such as retreating on angles, slipping attacks, "drawing" the attacker can all be trained using the tool of Kyu Kumite.
Once again, I would submit that it is the overly simplistic, 'half-assed' version of Kyu Kumite taught in some dojo that teaches only "you step backward twice during your part of the exercise" that is at fault; no wonder so many uechika are left with a bad taste...
Happy to post the article (unless posting it here means it doesn't go in the book - I was counting on those royalties
), unfortunately still in the field with no access to it. I should be back in about three days and can post it then.Bill,
Ah, the "backing up in Uechi" issue... It's been discussed long and hard, and will undoubtedly continue to be debated. I tell students that the notion of always doing anything is nonsense (I use a different word...). I think I'm going to have a bumper sticker made up that says "Backing Up Happens."
Anyone who has been in any 'real world' situations who has never given any ground is either very good or very lucky. One of the things that I like about Kyu Kumite is that taught "correctly," it trains the student to "turn it around" on the attacker after having started off by retreating. Concepts such as retreating on angles, slipping attacks, "drawing" the attacker can all be trained using the tool of Kyu Kumite.
Once again, I would submit that it is the overly simplistic, 'half-assed' version of Kyu Kumite taught in some dojo that teaches only "you step backward twice during your part of the exercise" that is at fault; no wonder so many uechika are left with a bad taste...
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
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The book
has been written and in the hands of Roy Bedard who is editing and working on the layout. We are printing 300 special hard bound copies and over 200 were spoken for at last year's camp.
I'll be posting more info on the book once Roy has finished with the layout.
Greg. . . don't worry, your segment will remain in both the book and DVD.
I'll be posting more info on the book once Roy has finished with the layout.
Greg. . . don't worry, your segment will remain in both the book and DVD.
GEM
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Thanks Bill and Greg for lending some logic to this on and on argument about kumite and prearranged EXERCISES. The argument drives me crazy. Yeah going forward to "attack the attack, crowd the weapon" etc is the idea, but the reality we all are likely to flinch at first.being able to GO BACK and then immediately move FORWARD can make a lot of sense in our training.
Tony Blauer teaches a flinch response in his spear system. I don't see the K bashers laughing and criticizing him. I wonder why? Because he doesn't do uechi so what he teaches is somehow more mystical and mysterious? Why do so many uechi guys think all the other systems are better?
And something I believe to be the greatest benefit on dan kumite is the potential for body conditioning. When you do an all out, full speed, BONE ON BONE dan with an aggressive partner you are feeling a fight in a way that training with gloves and headgear cannot match.
Pre arranged work is a tool an EXERCISE to teach concepts, nothing more or less.
Been reading the forum from the uechika north of the border. Got to admit I love their interpretations and application of uechiryu. Tough to take all their "We are tougher than you, you're sheep and we are tigers" BS.
Tony Blauer teaches a flinch response in his spear system. I don't see the K bashers laughing and criticizing him. I wonder why? Because he doesn't do uechi so what he teaches is somehow more mystical and mysterious? Why do so many uechi guys think all the other systems are better?
And something I believe to be the greatest benefit on dan kumite is the potential for body conditioning. When you do an all out, full speed, BONE ON BONE dan with an aggressive partner you are feeling a fight in a way that training with gloves and headgear cannot match.
Pre arranged work is a tool an EXERCISE to teach concepts, nothing more or less.
Been reading the forum from the uechika north of the border. Got to admit I love their interpretations and application of uechiryu. Tough to take all their "We are tougher than you, you're sheep and we are tigers" BS.
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jorvik
Good post _ Josann _ because it gives us a chance to look at the fighting dynamics on the street in a little more detail:[/quote]Tony Blauer teaches a flinch response in his spear system. I don't see the K bashers laughing and criticizing him. I wonder why? Because he doesn't do uechi so what he teaches is somehow more mystical and mysterious? Why do so many uechi guys think all the other systems are better?[/quote]
First I don’t recall many people here…well…with the exception of a couple in the past…
smile…knocking Uechi as a style. 
As to Blauer, we have worked with him at our camp; I have worked with him personally at his seminars in Gary Khourys dojo in the past.
Let’s look and listen to him now _
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4
Concepts: Now _Can anyone extrapolate from what we see and hear …useful concepts in relation to this discussion?
And there is also another way to practice this kind of prearranged conditioning as follows:
As we read this…again think of the lines of force and directions we are ‘entraining’ when we practice…never lose sight of this…
Got this from a really good Uechi fighter
So we do the kumites, and that’s fine, now…are we to believe in the back of our minds that their standard practice is preparing us to deal with what is described above? I.E.,[When a student finds himself/herself in a sudden confrontation, he/she knows deep inside that an attack, even if empty handed, will come from a number of trajectories and lines of force not trained for _ such as kooks, uppercuts, overhands, jabs, all thrown in rapid fire.]
If you really believe that…well…good luck to you.
In my tournaments of the day…when initially up against very skilled, fast and powerful TKD/TSD fighters…who would throw potential deadly kicks from rotational speed and from angles I had not seen before…I was getting nailed pretty good when attempting to block a kick half way to the target. Those kicks were so powerful that in so many instances, we witnessed Kos _ broken arms and ribs by impact from those kicks.
Unless you have been in the ring facing one of those kickers, it will be hard to understand the risks.
Is there a way Uechi teaches how to deal with that?
Well... it dawned on me that our kata teaches ‘stifling’ ‘stul•ti•fy•ing’ response actions[
To render useless or ineffectual; cripple. ] when appropriate…and suddenly things got a lot better.
Did the standard kumite practice we did then, help in my sparring competition? Yes, of course, but there was more to be understood and to be practiced in order to be a winner.
One great example I devised for my group of fighters [I ran the Mattson academy's sparring team] was to use the seisan jump back in reverse…meaning…I sensed a kick coming …I would ‘spring forward’ with my left knee ‘up and away’ into the center of the opponent ‘stifling’ his windup.
One other thing to keep in mind is that although backing up is certainly a valid evasive maneuver, we must be careful because the opponent will not stop to give you…your turn to counter from wherever you end up…he will keep on blitzing forward, overcoming you with momentum…
In tournament fighting, there was a rule that if you were pushed or stepped back out of the ring three times, one point would be taken away from you.
Now…what are we likely to find in the way of a street attack? Let’s see if this makes any sense
Do the kumite for sure...use any variation you think best...I have my own variations....but don't think that the standard lines of force and directions you practice against straight punches in staccato mode... is all you need in a street fight.
And do as much free fighting as possible, closing the range and allowing punches and kicks and other attacks you alone can envision coming at you on the street.
Even at slow motion..this develops good concepts.
First I don’t recall many people here…well…with the exception of a couple in the past…
smile…knocking Uechi as a style. As to Blauer, we have worked with him at our camp; I have worked with him personally at his seminars in Gary Khourys dojo in the past.
Let’s look and listen to him now _
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4
Concepts: Now _Can anyone extrapolate from what we see and hear …useful concepts in relation to this discussion?
Absolutely correct. Now think of the lines of force and direction of the kumites [again I am not saying they should not be practiced… HOPE THIS IS CLEAR…] SMILE.And something I believe to be the greatest benefit on Dan kumite is the potential for body conditioning. When you do an all out, full speed, BONE ON BONE Dan with an aggressive partner you are feeling a fight in a way that training with gloves and headgear cannot match.
And there is also another way to practice this kind of prearranged conditioning as follows:
As we read this…again think of the lines of force and directions we are ‘entraining’ when we practice…never lose sight of this…
Got this from a really good Uechi fighter
This seems to reflect some concepts and concerns as voiced by Blauer in the link above.Van…If we were to design kumites to incorporate more of what seems to work best, like hook kicks, hook punches, uppercuts and overhands, because they generate more power from hard to “catch” angles and because of body’s torque, we would be turning out more self defense prepared students.
When a student finds himself/herself in a sudden confrontation, he/she knows deep inside that an attack, even if empty handed, will come from a number of trajectories and lines of force not trained for _ such as kooks, uppercuts, overhands, jabs, all thrown in rapid fire.
The more circular, hooking techniques, full-contact strikes also aim for the opponent's jaw, temples and kidneys, as we must learn to do in a self defense fight.
So we do the kumites, and that’s fine, now…are we to believe in the back of our minds that their standard practice is preparing us to deal with what is described above? I.E.,[When a student finds himself/herself in a sudden confrontation, he/she knows deep inside that an attack, even if empty handed, will come from a number of trajectories and lines of force not trained for _ such as kooks, uppercuts, overhands, jabs, all thrown in rapid fire.]
If you really believe that…well…good luck to you.
In my tournaments of the day…when initially up against very skilled, fast and powerful TKD/TSD fighters…who would throw potential deadly kicks from rotational speed and from angles I had not seen before…I was getting nailed pretty good when attempting to block a kick half way to the target. Those kicks were so powerful that in so many instances, we witnessed Kos _ broken arms and ribs by impact from those kicks.
Unless you have been in the ring facing one of those kickers, it will be hard to understand the risks.
Is there a way Uechi teaches how to deal with that?
Well... it dawned on me that our kata teaches ‘stifling’ ‘stul•ti•fy•ing’ response actions[
To render useless or ineffectual; cripple. ] when appropriate…and suddenly things got a lot better.
Did the standard kumite practice we did then, help in my sparring competition? Yes, of course, but there was more to be understood and to be practiced in order to be a winner.
One great example I devised for my group of fighters [I ran the Mattson academy's sparring team] was to use the seisan jump back in reverse…meaning…I sensed a kick coming …I would ‘spring forward’ with my left knee ‘up and away’ into the center of the opponent ‘stifling’ his windup.
One other thing to keep in mind is that although backing up is certainly a valid evasive maneuver, we must be careful because the opponent will not stop to give you…your turn to counter from wherever you end up…he will keep on blitzing forward, overcoming you with momentum…
In tournament fighting, there was a rule that if you were pushed or stepped back out of the ring three times, one point would be taken away from you.
Now…what are we likely to find in the way of a street attack? Let’s see if this makes any sense
Well…something to think about for sure.By the time your attacker has made the decision to punch you, he's already gone through his "strike analysis". He knows HOW he wants to hit you...WHERE he wants to hit you...and WHEN he wants to hit you. All that's left is to simply HIT YOU!
By the time YOU see the strike coming, you've barely begun your own "blocking analysis" of how you're going to not get hit and there surely isn't enough time to pull out Block X from exercise Y…
Unless you're dealing with a drunken idiot who goes for a slow-motion haymaker from left field, you're most likely NOT going to be able to block a punch, at least not in the "traditional" sense.
Do the kumite for sure...use any variation you think best...I have my own variations....but don't think that the standard lines of force and directions you practice against straight punches in staccato mode... is all you need in a street fight.
And do as much free fighting as possible, closing the range and allowing punches and kicks and other attacks you alone can envision coming at you on the street.
Even at slow motion..this develops good concepts.
Van
Quote: Do the kumite for sure...use any variation you think best...I have my own variations....but don't think that the standard lines of force and directions you practice against straight punches in staccato mode... is all you need in a street fight.
And do as much free fighting as possible, closing the range and allowing punches and kicks and other attacks you alone can envision coming at you on the street.
Absolutely agree. Any thoughful uechi student knows this, or at least should know this. I like prearranged kumite for timing but more so for conditioning. Cross training with an aggressive partner in the "jack in the box" moment that Blauer talks about is also very effective. Put boxing gloves on the attacker and go at it. You certainly are not wasting time practicing any of the prearranged stuff if you have a purpose, a concept, that you are training.
Too bad Art Rebessa's forum here did not take off as it should have. In his book he spoke of the benefits of prearranged stuff for conditioning and training. If guys like him, Van,and Walter Mattson think it has merit then it does.
I find something very beneficial and satisfying about full speed prearranged stuff due to having no gloves or protective gear on. I'd like to think that this kind of training has adaptability in the real world.
And do as much free fighting as possible, closing the range and allowing punches and kicks and other attacks you alone can envision coming at you on the street.
Absolutely agree. Any thoughful uechi student knows this, or at least should know this. I like prearranged kumite for timing but more so for conditioning. Cross training with an aggressive partner in the "jack in the box" moment that Blauer talks about is also very effective. Put boxing gloves on the attacker and go at it. You certainly are not wasting time practicing any of the prearranged stuff if you have a purpose, a concept, that you are training.
Too bad Art Rebessa's forum here did not take off as it should have. In his book he spoke of the benefits of prearranged stuff for conditioning and training. If guys like him, Van,and Walter Mattson think it has merit then it does.
I find something very beneficial and satisfying about full speed prearranged stuff due to having no gloves or protective gear on. I'd like to think that this kind of training has adaptability in the real world.
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jorvik
Well if you do a weapons art then you really have to do co-operative drills .......you can't knife your training partners.
I also don't see anything wrong in doing them in a slow and graceful manner were you do actually make contact with your partner, by touch, and may even push them back a little.......Just so you program into yourself the correct range and focus.it's amazing how many begginers punch to the surface of a pad or bag and not through it , this will correct that tendencey
.......you can't knife your training partners.I also don't see anything wrong in doing them in a slow and graceful manner were you do actually make contact with your partner, by touch, and may even push them back a little.......Just so you program into yourself the correct range and focus.it's amazing how many begginers punch to the surface of a pad or bag and not through it , this will correct that tendencey
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Amen to that, Ray.jorvik wrote:
Well if you do a weapons art then you really have to do co-operative drills
I'm very impressed with the array of "toys" now made available to practitioners of weapon arts. Any number of "soft" weapons are now available for use in one-on-one and more unstructured jiyu formats (such as my "barroom brawl" game). I've even got my students playing with the foam noodles - something I used to do only with the kids. There's a little kid in all of us.
RBSD instructors speak highly of slow-motion training.jorvik wrote:
I also don't see anything wrong in doing them in a slow and graceful manner were you do actually make contact with your partner, by touch, and may even push them back a little.......Just so you program into yourself the correct range and focus.it's amazing how many begginers punch to the surface of a pad or bag and not through it , this will correct that tendencey
As you stated... I have a version of my barroom brawl scenario training where I tell students they: 1) must move in slow motion, 2) may not do any "blocking", 3) must do full extension techniques, and 4) must "go with" a full extension technique when hit (as if in a movie). I demonstrate what I want by asking someone to lift me off the ground with a groin kick, or do a looping right cross through my jaw. Nobody is hurt, but then nobody is pulling anything. And frankly "rolling with the punches" is a useful art all to itself. Sometimes you goof; it pays to know how to roll with a hard hit.
- Bill
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f.Channell
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I've been doing a lot of work with padded weapons recently.
There is really no reason to use a shinai or other like item when doing bunkai for example.
You still need to train with a regular weapon to gain the benefits of developing the muscles and wrists, but to build reaction time you can get a lot closer to real life speed with a padded weapon. And you can vary weapons and their ranges as well.
It may just change the way you do your seisan jump though, be prepared to change your thinking.
F.
There is really no reason to use a shinai or other like item when doing bunkai for example.
You still need to train with a regular weapon to gain the benefits of developing the muscles and wrists, but to build reaction time you can get a lot closer to real life speed with a padded weapon. And you can vary weapons and their ranges as well.
It may just change the way you do your seisan jump though, be prepared to change your thinking.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
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f.Channell
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There are short padded knives, and you will know you were stabbed.
F.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
I haven't done anything with Tony Blaur, but i got his tapes, and ive taken some seminars from the ISR program from straight blast gym under a guy who used to be under blaur's system.
From what he tells me, anything pre-arranged quickly progressed to aliveness and resistance, which quickly went up and up.
In the seminars, we'd only do pre-arranged to get used to something, then very quickly went straight to resistance(not always 100 percent, but you get my meaning)
TESTING in straight blast gym is done with resistance. Anything that was once pre-arranged is then tested with resistance. This isn't a simple 'sport' gym, ISR and other programs under straight blast gym system are focussed on personal protection.
My issue personally is not with pre-arranged kumite it self but rather where it goes. Why isn't it TESTED with resistence? Clearly many of you see potential to fit in different scenarios and techniques into the drill. So why not throw it in the test? Surely being able to plug in different content and principles against resistance is something that is black belt worthy?
If you've previously found Pre-arranged kumite useful in a self defense situation, would it certainly not become better used if trained alive in class of if tested in such a manner? Would it not be MORE useful if it were better explored under pressure testing?
So why not simply throw in resistance in the belt tests when doing kumite?
From what he tells me, anything pre-arranged quickly progressed to aliveness and resistance, which quickly went up and up.
In the seminars, we'd only do pre-arranged to get used to something, then very quickly went straight to resistance(not always 100 percent, but you get my meaning)
TESTING in straight blast gym is done with resistance. Anything that was once pre-arranged is then tested with resistance. This isn't a simple 'sport' gym, ISR and other programs under straight blast gym system are focussed on personal protection.
My issue personally is not with pre-arranged kumite it self but rather where it goes. Why isn't it TESTED with resistence? Clearly many of you see potential to fit in different scenarios and techniques into the drill. So why not throw it in the test? Surely being able to plug in different content and principles against resistance is something that is black belt worthy?
If you've previously found Pre-arranged kumite useful in a self defense situation, would it certainly not become better used if trained alive in class of if tested in such a manner? Would it not be MORE useful if it were better explored under pressure testing?
So why not simply throw in resistance in the belt tests when doing kumite?
