My issue with generic sport karate and Uechi Ryu

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 4:39 am

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the tournaments won by individuals sporting a Uechi patch are done so by circumventing Uechi technique in favor of the few generic and ubiquitous tournament techniques.

First of all, most karate styles have techniques practiced in kata that aren't allowed in "sparring." Even with rough sparring, it was always meant to be a game designed to teach us something, and not to mess people up willey nilley. Even UFC matches have restrictions, and are held in pretty well-controlled settings against only a single opponent.

I have a few questions regarding this though. Don't you think fundamentals learned in our system (like movement and defense and "glare in the eyes with fast hands") help someone prepare themselves for various sport fighting arenas? Don't you think the emphasis on efficiency over flash helps? Don't you think our preoccupation with control of center helps? Don't you think good kotekitae and ashikitae comes in handy when you start banging around against the world-class competitors in any of these arenas? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

"Point" sparing should not be part of a Dan test...for in a real confrontation Mr. Slow Guy might just crush the Bjesus out of Mr. Whippy Fast point guy!

What is your ideal format?

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 6:44 pm

Topos

Thank you for such an inspiring post. From my perspective, you have little reason to be so self deprecating. You have more experience putting the lessons to the "ultimate" test than many of our present and former sparring champions.

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Before signing up he let me watch a class where a tall, skinny, Harvard student was struggling through a Kata. A few months later when a new class started I signed up and was amazed the difference in the demeanor and presence of Mr. Harvard. He moved like the wind and his strength was noticeable. He went on to open up a Dojo in New York.

And thank you so much for this anecdote. The person you described became one of my early Uechi Ryu instructors. What a great view of a man that means so much to me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I had the privilege of studying with ... (yeah, even Athi Kaend [grin]).

No need to think odd of that either. Ahti recently passed away. But the week he passed away, his students did fabulously in the most recent All Okinawa tournament (held in Atlanta last year). In addition to star performances in the kata divisions, one of his students, Steve Goss, advanced to the finals in his sparring division - farther than ANY other male Uechi Ryu karate practitioner (Our Uechi women kicked bootie

). Talent and accomplishments don't always come from where people expect. Often it's the dedicated good guy working quietly in some far corner that steps forward and demonstrates excellence. Such performances are an inspiration to the vast majority of folks who come from less-heralded backgrounds.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 08, 2002).]

Topos · Post by **Topos** » Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Topos

[QUOTE] Ahti recently passed away. But the week he passed away, his students did fabulously in the most recent All Okinawa tournament (held in Atlanta last year).

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited April 08, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bill, I am so sorry to hear of Ahti's passing. May I share a funny story. One day, in that unholy meatlocker George called the Bolyston Dojo (so cold I was the only one who accepted ridicule by wearing socks on the Ice frozen Tundra), Ahti was telling me about his prowess in Jiu Jitsu (not Judo). He was impressive. Then, with his mischievous crooked grin he stated "I can hurt you and you cannot do anything about it" I responded with a simple philosophical rejoinder "Why?" Ahti then ran toward me and slid into a Jiu Jitsu leg scissor. My limbic system guided by San Chin and a South Boston's kid "don't stand there stupid" reaction let him slid by upon which I drove be foot a few inches from his throat. Ahti laughed "you were not supposed to move AND I now have a splinter in my behind". We all were happy that in the Colombus Avenue studio GEM had the floors SANDED and polyuethaned. To Ahti's family and students my heartfelt sympathies.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:24 am

"Obivously, UECHI RYU is NOT an effective fighting system !!!! for it seems that the tournaments won by individuals sporting a Uechi patch are done so by circumventing Uechi technique in favor of the few generic and ubiquitous tournament techniques."

Surely you understand the distinction between sparring and fighting, right? You can't rip people's eyes out in sparring, and in fighting, people don't usually square off under the observation of a judge, for starters. And I'm sure you're aware that just because Uechi people spar, what goes on in their matches isn't the totality of what Uechi is, right?

"Sporting competitions have little value or relation to real karate. "Point" sparing should not be part of a Dan test..."

I'd prefer a match that tried to more closely approximate a fight, but, if it's of no value, fight Khoury or something.

Bill asks a couple good questions that illustrate the value of Uechi to fighting. But there's also the fairly obvious fact, to me, that there are faster and better ways to learn just how to beat people up than karate. People do karate for other reasons, and those other reasons are a big part of it. I got a little sheet as an introduction to judo once from an instructor, and under purpose, it explained that the purpose of judo was the betterment of society through the perfection of the individual.

Nuthin about a$$whipping. I don't tink karate is all that different.

Yin and Yang, Martial and Art, not either one alone.

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:33 am

We've allowed seniors to spar candidates on tests, and it deteriorated in to bullying inmany cases. In some dojo, there still is a lot of bullying by teachers when they spar students.

What sets someone like Mr. Khoury apart is, in his saprring classes, he works on drills and techniques at his dojo, and positively encourages his students during sparring, and he doesn't brutilize them.

Contrast that to the teacher who always whacks students in the head every time they advance. What lesson does that teach? Keep the hands up, you might say. Then tacher kicks you in the gut. If every time I move I get hit, then why bother? COuple this with the fact that teacher says, "I don't teach sparring. I let you figure it out on your own". Obviously I haven't, which is why I'm a student.

Gene

nosib · Post by **nosib** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 5:13 am

Bill, Ian, my previous reply seems to have been a case of shooting my pie hole off before the ole gray matter was engaged. I sometimes allow my thinking to become entangled with a gross error in logic--thinking or arguing from the general to the particular. I'am in agreement with everything both of you stated. I just do not care for the bravado of many of the trophy collecting sport oriented individuals. They tend to equate sport performance with over all karate ability. I cannot comment on the tournament participants in your area but here in the midwest it has been my experience that the tournament ability of some our champions was inversly proportional to their Uechi ability. People making Yondan or Sandan who could not maintain Sanchin position when kitae was applied...but were percieved to be great Uechi practicioners because of their trophy collection. I feel sport is important,fun and is a venue for further expertise but it is not the end all. Bill, what I look for in the kumite protion of a Dan test is mainly one quality-- The ability of the canadate to sucessfully defend himself with confidence,strength and balance using Uechi technique.If many kicks and punches are being landed then this has not been demonstrated. There is something wrong when both opponents are landing many blows. Mr.Takimiagi once stated that much of our sparring in America looked too much like a dog fight.. attack attack attack and no defense....which seems to be typical in most sporting situations.

Topos · Post by **Topos** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 5:39 am

" Further, Uechi will continue to improve as it has since the time Kanbun introduced it to the Okinawans."

This thread is interesting to me as I had the privilege of studying with GEM in 1960, with class mates of the fine caliber of Walter Mattson, Charlie Earl, Bill Finerty (yeah, even Athi Kaend [grin]). I have been doing the Kat for the past 42 years for my self. I was fortunate that GEM had (and still seems to have) a sensitivity and responsibility to all his students and their individual strengths (marginal with me) and weaknesses (legion in my case). Before signing up he let me watch a class where a tall, skinny, Harvard student was struggling through a Kata. A few months later when a new class started I signed up and was amazed the difference in the demeanor and presence of Mr. Harvard. He moved like the wind and his strength was noticeable. He went on to open up a Dojo in New York. In any other school he would have most likely given up.

GEM was even then modifying his teaching methods to accommodate the spectrum of students. For example, to his credit, he would not let brown belt bullying.

My cousin played right guard for the Baltimore Colts and the Washington Redskins. The body punishment he could dish out and endure would be on par with the best Uechi fighters. I, on the other hand, could and would not accept that. Yet under GEM I learned an art that has stuck with me up to today: performing The Three Kata, three times a day. Can I defend myself in a street fight in a back ally in Shanghai? Only if I practice the 'Secret' 1911 A-1 kata I have a facility with. Having retired after 32 years in DOD from DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency) I learned to apply one of the basic lessons of Uechi: Present Maximum Force Quickly to Weakest Point. In the ubiquitous 'gang attack' scenarios discussed on these fora I would call in some member of the Teams and they would handle it for me.

Joking aside, though, I have the deepest admiration for the Uechi Best such as Bob Bethoney and Van Canna and their prowess. But for the original 98 pound weakling I must champion GEM's astuteness for evolution and safety.

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student · Post by **student** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 12:26 pm

Slightly off topic, I want to post some praise for one of my most important instructors, Master Henry Cook of Louisville, Kentucky.

Sifu Cook is a trememdous fighter. That is no what I am praising.

Sifu has the ability to tone down his fighting until he's just superior to his student. Not overwhelming, but still superior.

From experience, it gives one hope while learning and is part of what makes him a fantastic teacher.

student

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 4:32 pm

student and Gene

Somewhere eons ago in this thread, someone asked a question as to why they don't allow head contact for kyu ranks but allow light head contact for dans. This to him seemed illogical, as it was the dan who was most capable of delivering power.

This illustrates the point I made in response. The skilled practioner does what he means, and means what he does. Now I have noted cases where an advance student "goofed" a bit and really put a hurt on someone. If you've sparred long enough, you have your share of goofs on many levels. However, advanced students goof less. Capable practitioners don't need to be in overdrive to work with someone, and can dial up the level of intensity as needed. I'll take Gary on any day over a white belt.

When I was a younger lad, my first Uechi ryu instructor (Rad Smith) was tall, lean (around 5% body fat), strong, and way too fast for a large man. Yes, he goofed a few times. He accidentally hit me in the sternum so hard one time that it bothered me for almost a decade. But I preferred being bounced off the wall by Rad because Rad beat me up only as much as was needed - and no more. Rad always left himself just beyond my reach - and no more. Rad would let me taste the fear and the pain just enough to learn from it - and no more. Rad was secure in himself and his ability, and didn't need to prove anything to me or anyone else.

nosib

I have taken note of an interesting theme being discussed through this thread (from you, Tony, Gary, etc.). I'm going to bring it up in another thread. It's worthy of lengthy discussion.

- Bill