Watch out Neil your about to have the castle stormed by a bunch of warriors clad in spandex!unless, like some of his adherents, you consider Tae Bo to be self defense
Uechi and Fitness Standards
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f.Channell
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Read this article for an interesting comment on weight lifting by Gushi Sensei.
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pa ... icle18.htm
F.
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pa ... icle18.htm
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I find comments like these interesting, and to some extent anachronistic. It reminds me of "conventional wisdom" thirty years ago about weightlifting in this country. Somehow it was supposed to slow you down, lower your flexibility, cause arthritis in your joints, etc., etc. As it turns out - when properly done - it does just the opposite of what all the naysayers say. Many of these same coaches also preached against having sex, because it was supposed to make your legs weak. I even had a Nei Gung teacher tell me I shouldn't have sex because it would prevent my chi development. Hmm...
A few years back I read Nolan Ryan's autobiography. In it, he talked about all the pitching coaches who said he would ruin his arm if he did weight training. Good thing he didn't listen to them. His training discipline allowed him to throw a no hitter at age 42, where his average pitch speed for that day was 89 mph. Weight training significantly contributed to the longevity of his career.
The concept of weightlifting has gone way beyond just getting strong these days for those who are serious about it. When I say serious, I mean getting beyond using the foo foo machines in a health club (which train major muscle groups at the expense of stabilizers and don't train essential synergy or whole body coordination). It also means getting beyond bench press and curls, which is the "pleasing appearance" only aspect that Gushi refers to.
There's nothing wrong with having a little show with the go. But good weightlifting goes way beyond appearance and even strength. It's all about balanced strength, coordination, power, tendon development, bone density development, and even cadiovascular training. It's one of many tools in the karateka's training toolbox.
And don't forget that "traditional" traning such as walking with the jars (kami) is also weight training. The only difference is that the jars don't have "Universal" stamped on the sides.
- Bill
A few years back I read Nolan Ryan's autobiography. In it, he talked about all the pitching coaches who said he would ruin his arm if he did weight training. Good thing he didn't listen to them. His training discipline allowed him to throw a no hitter at age 42, where his average pitch speed for that day was 89 mph. Weight training significantly contributed to the longevity of his career.
The concept of weightlifting has gone way beyond just getting strong these days for those who are serious about it. When I say serious, I mean getting beyond using the foo foo machines in a health club (which train major muscle groups at the expense of stabilizers and don't train essential synergy or whole body coordination). It also means getting beyond bench press and curls, which is the "pleasing appearance" only aspect that Gushi refers to.
There's nothing wrong with having a little show with the go. But good weightlifting goes way beyond appearance and even strength. It's all about balanced strength, coordination, power, tendon development, bone density development, and even cadiovascular training. It's one of many tools in the karateka's training toolbox.
And don't forget that "traditional" traning such as walking with the jars (kami) is also weight training. The only difference is that the jars don't have "Universal" stamped on the sides.
- Bill
NM, if you review many of the threads on the forums you'll see that the topic evolves as the thread goes on. This is a good thing, because it means people are discussing the ideas presented and taking further logical steps. People shot down standards for good reasons, and so other proposed ways to improve fitness in uechi classes appeared. Good! Otherwise we'd be repeating ourselves for 90 posts.
As for minor diversions (such as mine into obesity, and many other thoughts and threads on fashion, movies, SUVs etc) they're a tradition here and if you find them distracting you can skip them; mine begins with a disclaimer that it's not directly related to martial arts to make this easy.
More importantly, just because there are differing definitions of fitness does NOT mean that no one knows what it is or that we should give up on it!! Like pornography, we know it when we see it. Even if we disagreed on the exact threshold for recommending a fitness program, that doesn't mean the comments would be detrimental, either.
And, we may not be "Certified Fitness Instructors," but neither do we carry official certification as Uechi instructors. No government body certifies us (nor should they) and standards and styles for dan testing vary (just like fitness definitiions!), and dan ranking in my experience means a certain level of proficiency was reached, not that the person is a certified teacher. But if they can help teach in class who would interfere?
Likewise, if we ASKED or ADVISED instructors to comment on their student's fitness, I am not worried they would begin making recommendations in areas they felt incapable of advising in. All they would need to do even if they felt completely unable to recommend exercises is to advise a, for example, scrawny student such as myself to seek supervised weight lifting instruction elsewhere--what possible harm could result from that? All of the responsibility would rest with the weight lifting supervisor selected.
Realistically, karate students do cardio work in about every class, and they probably stretch just about every class too, and frequently perform throws or techniques or use dynamic tension with partners that utilize their strength. If the instructors were helpless in these areas of fitness, then they would be near a point at which they could not safely advise students what UECHI exertion they could do, right? I mean, how could an instructor tell a student to do hojo undo, sequential kata, and partner exercises yet remain unable to recommend similar exertion on an exercise bike if a student demonstrated insufficient stamina in class?
Perhaps you could explain what you are worried would happen if instructors recommended simple fitness regimens for students within their comfort level or recommended they seek out supervision for improvement in certain areas if their comfort level was nil?
As for minor diversions (such as mine into obesity, and many other thoughts and threads on fashion, movies, SUVs etc) they're a tradition here and if you find them distracting you can skip them; mine begins with a disclaimer that it's not directly related to martial arts to make this easy.
More importantly, just because there are differing definitions of fitness does NOT mean that no one knows what it is or that we should give up on it!! Like pornography, we know it when we see it. Even if we disagreed on the exact threshold for recommending a fitness program, that doesn't mean the comments would be detrimental, either.
And, we may not be "Certified Fitness Instructors," but neither do we carry official certification as Uechi instructors. No government body certifies us (nor should they) and standards and styles for dan testing vary (just like fitness definitiions!), and dan ranking in my experience means a certain level of proficiency was reached, not that the person is a certified teacher. But if they can help teach in class who would interfere?
Likewise, if we ASKED or ADVISED instructors to comment on their student's fitness, I am not worried they would begin making recommendations in areas they felt incapable of advising in. All they would need to do even if they felt completely unable to recommend exercises is to advise a, for example, scrawny student such as myself to seek supervised weight lifting instruction elsewhere--what possible harm could result from that? All of the responsibility would rest with the weight lifting supervisor selected.
Realistically, karate students do cardio work in about every class, and they probably stretch just about every class too, and frequently perform throws or techniques or use dynamic tension with partners that utilize their strength. If the instructors were helpless in these areas of fitness, then they would be near a point at which they could not safely advise students what UECHI exertion they could do, right? I mean, how could an instructor tell a student to do hojo undo, sequential kata, and partner exercises yet remain unable to recommend similar exertion on an exercise bike if a student demonstrated insufficient stamina in class?
Perhaps you could explain what you are worried would happen if instructors recommended simple fitness regimens for students within their comfort level or recommended they seek out supervision for improvement in certain areas if their comfort level was nil?
--Ian
Hi, IJ
I'll answer your last question first if I may.
There are a significant number of instructors out there who believe that what was good enough for them is good enough to teach: including bouncing stretches, pushing overweight students past their limits using shame as a motivator, demanding more speed NOW, and assigning all manner of innappropriate "fitness" regimes to a large body of students with no regard, or knowledge even, as to what these are supposed to accomplish, or even if they are outmoded and dangerous.
They regard this as "fitness", and, lacking any fitness training, they are ill-prepared to actually help a student who isn't "tough enough".
As said before, ironically these are the very ones who need expert instruction the most.
I REALLY like your idea of an instructor recommending to an underweight or too-weak student to get some "supervised weightlifting instruction"...do you see, this is my point!
The Karate instructor sees a need, realizes he/she is not qualified to instruct that specific remedial need, and so hands that over to an expert.
Who will, very likely, be a Certified Fitness Trainer.
And last, for sure, I understand that topics evolve, sometimes into delirious silly nonsense!
But other times, I'm sure you've noticed, the emPHASis gets placed on the other syllABLE and the heart of a given topic sometimes gets overshadowed by this, and the topic never gets a serious enough review. Many of them warrant serious discussion, I think.
I'm not debating the benefits of fitness, I am questioning the imposition of standards for it by people who can't define or properly instruct it because it's not their area of expertise (and it IS an area of expertise), or because they mistakenly think that their 1950's-era notions of it "will do" even in light of modern thinking which contradicts it.
BTW, I don't think CFT's are government-regulated, I think it's a graduate scholastic certificate. I'll check that out.
NM
I'll answer your last question first if I may.
There are a significant number of instructors out there who believe that what was good enough for them is good enough to teach: including bouncing stretches, pushing overweight students past their limits using shame as a motivator, demanding more speed NOW, and assigning all manner of innappropriate "fitness" regimes to a large body of students with no regard, or knowledge even, as to what these are supposed to accomplish, or even if they are outmoded and dangerous.
They regard this as "fitness", and, lacking any fitness training, they are ill-prepared to actually help a student who isn't "tough enough".
As said before, ironically these are the very ones who need expert instruction the most.
I REALLY like your idea of an instructor recommending to an underweight or too-weak student to get some "supervised weightlifting instruction"...do you see, this is my point!
The Karate instructor sees a need, realizes he/she is not qualified to instruct that specific remedial need, and so hands that over to an expert.
Who will, very likely, be a Certified Fitness Trainer.
And last, for sure, I understand that topics evolve, sometimes into delirious silly nonsense!
But other times, I'm sure you've noticed, the emPHASis gets placed on the other syllABLE and the heart of a given topic sometimes gets overshadowed by this, and the topic never gets a serious enough review. Many of them warrant serious discussion, I think.
I'm not debating the benefits of fitness, I am questioning the imposition of standards for it by people who can't define or properly instruct it because it's not their area of expertise (and it IS an area of expertise), or because they mistakenly think that their 1950's-era notions of it "will do" even in light of modern thinking which contradicts it.
BTW, I don't think CFT's are government-regulated, I think it's a graduate scholastic certificate. I'll check that out.
NM
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
This is an area that gets very deep. And I have been digging into it for about 33 years.
Everyone must start somewhere. If you don't know what to do or what to advise, it's useful to start with the CFTs in the local gym. I sometimes refer folks to those people when I suspect there will be resistance to what I have to suggest.
But dig deeper and you'll find that there are layers and layers of fitness - as I have commented on already. Many CFTs spend 95% of their time with weekend warriors and/or folks interested in pulling themselves out of a fitness funk. But push the envelope a bit and you will find the average CFT lacking.
This is why I've studied, prodded, asked, been referred, and picked up what I could over time. Martial arts - and Uechi in particular - are demanding disciplines that can require some specialized fitness training. When I bumped into John Gamble at U.Va. and asked for some weight training advice, I knew I had a good trainer when he first asked for some reference material on my style. I gladly gave several books to him as a gift. John subsequently became world heavyweight powerlifting champion, and is now the strength coach for the Miami Dolphins. People like him who understand how deep it can go and act accordingly most definitely end up going places.
John helped me help myself. John taught me how to create training programs for my own students, rather than develop a dependency on him. And since I've worked with him, the field of fitness and I have both advanced even farther in an understanding of it all.
Don't be enamored by the alphabet after the names if you've done your homework and kept current. And keep your eyes, ears, and minds open to new ideas and better understandings of fitness issues.
- Bill
Everyone must start somewhere. If you don't know what to do or what to advise, it's useful to start with the CFTs in the local gym. I sometimes refer folks to those people when I suspect there will be resistance to what I have to suggest.
But dig deeper and you'll find that there are layers and layers of fitness - as I have commented on already. Many CFTs spend 95% of their time with weekend warriors and/or folks interested in pulling themselves out of a fitness funk. But push the envelope a bit and you will find the average CFT lacking.
This is why I've studied, prodded, asked, been referred, and picked up what I could over time. Martial arts - and Uechi in particular - are demanding disciplines that can require some specialized fitness training. When I bumped into John Gamble at U.Va. and asked for some weight training advice, I knew I had a good trainer when he first asked for some reference material on my style. I gladly gave several books to him as a gift. John subsequently became world heavyweight powerlifting champion, and is now the strength coach for the Miami Dolphins. People like him who understand how deep it can go and act accordingly most definitely end up going places.
John helped me help myself. John taught me how to create training programs for my own students, rather than develop a dependency on him. And since I've worked with him, the field of fitness and I have both advanced even farther in an understanding of it all.
Don't be enamored by the alphabet after the names if you've done your homework and kept current. And keep your eyes, ears, and minds open to new ideas and better understandings of fitness issues.
- Bill
I think instructors SHOULD ask for hwlp when they need it. On the other hand, they made need none. A lot of this fitness stuff is fairly simple. Stretching, for example, is something we teach all the time. If people are still having their students bounce stretch (does some of jubi undo fall into this category?) their methods need to be revised, for sure. Goes to show that the status quo won't protect us from anything.
Aerobic fitness is pretty easy to come by as well. The biggest risk is if you'll be subjecting someone with heart disease to a regimen. This is a concern for sure, BUT, if that student is attending your karate class, you've already crossed that threshold! After that, you simply have the student find a low impact exercise of their choosing (running kills my back, so I use an exercise bike), work at it several times a week, and gradually increase the intensity and duration of their training. I think they're less likely to hurt themselves in a graded aerobic fitness regimen than doing kumite or kata.
Strength training might be the hardest to provide recs in, especially because some exercises (squats, for example) are riskier than biking, but even here, it's not very complicated. For example, Bill just told me I'd benefit if I started lifting. That was it. Some people may need a certified fitness instructor to get them going, but honestly, a person of average intelligence can get to a gym and follow the instructions on a machine (which are hard to hurt yourself with), use free weights only with a spotter and caution, use some common sense (don't spend all your time on quads and chest and none on hamstrings and back), and take it from there.
You may need Brad Pitt's trainer and his semi full of equipment at 30k a week to get your students ready to tackle Troy, but most of us have humbler ambitions. People who are overweight, for example, don't need complicated nutritional advice. 95% of the relevant information people write 300 page books about can go in a paragraph. After that, it's a matter of following the simple advice. What did my half ton man do to lose weight? Go on a diet. How complicated is that, really?
Aerobic fitness is pretty easy to come by as well. The biggest risk is if you'll be subjecting someone with heart disease to a regimen. This is a concern for sure, BUT, if that student is attending your karate class, you've already crossed that threshold! After that, you simply have the student find a low impact exercise of their choosing (running kills my back, so I use an exercise bike), work at it several times a week, and gradually increase the intensity and duration of their training. I think they're less likely to hurt themselves in a graded aerobic fitness regimen than doing kumite or kata.
Strength training might be the hardest to provide recs in, especially because some exercises (squats, for example) are riskier than biking, but even here, it's not very complicated. For example, Bill just told me I'd benefit if I started lifting. That was it. Some people may need a certified fitness instructor to get them going, but honestly, a person of average intelligence can get to a gym and follow the instructions on a machine (which are hard to hurt yourself with), use free weights only with a spotter and caution, use some common sense (don't spend all your time on quads and chest and none on hamstrings and back), and take it from there.
You may need Brad Pitt's trainer and his semi full of equipment at 30k a week to get your students ready to tackle Troy, but most of us have humbler ambitions. People who are overweight, for example, don't need complicated nutritional advice. 95% of the relevant information people write 300 page books about can go in a paragraph. After that, it's a matter of following the simple advice. What did my half ton man do to lose weight? Go on a diet. How complicated is that, really?
--Ian
