Research reference : syllabus of Uechi Kambun's school

[Glenn]

On George's video of Simon performing Suparenpei (yi bai lin ba bu ) after returning from China, he also performed another form called something like Tiger Descending from the Mountain. It's been a while since I have watched that video so my memory is fuzzy, but wasn't that described as an equivalent to Seisan for the group he learned the Suparenpi from? If so, are there any logical similarities between that form and Uechi Seisan?

[MikeK]

It's always possible that Kanbun took what he learned and made up his own kata, but none of the oral history passed down supports this.

I always treat oral history with a grain of salt. Some things get hidden and other things added. But many times it does give clues.

[Bill Glasheen]

Has anybody found a Sanseiryu in China?

By Simon's account, Sanseiryu was a popular name for a kata in China. Again, it had to do with Buddhism and numerology. It's like calling your pet dog Fido.

Nothing like Uechi's Sanseiryu has been seen anywhere to my knowledge. The only form I've seen that has some movements like it is the form Simon showed me. It has flashes of it in places.

- Bill

[MikeK]

So it could be Kanbun's own special home brew. If so it could be closest to what Kanbun's own personal style was like. Something about that feels more genuine to me than it being something he brought back with him.

[mhosea]

Something about that feels more genuine to me than it being something he brought back with him.

But "bringing it back" would be the more mundane explanation. Occam's razor.

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh I disagree, mhosea. SOMEBODY had to choreograph the form. We just don't have the author's signature on the piece of work.

How about this. Why would Kanbun have us believe that someone else choreographed the form? Why wouldn't he take credit rather than give the credit to his teacher(s)?

Did he tweak stuff? I could believe that. Was a system choreographed and/or tweaked just for him by a talented teacher? I could believe that. (It was done often in China.) Did he forget some things and subsequently "fill in the blanks?" I could believe that.

Did his teacher teach him a "108" form and he forgot it? Yea, I can believe that. If it wasn't for podigious notes and even videos of me doing things from the past, there would be a lot of things I would have forgotten.

I've already forgotten probably 3 dozen forms I once knew.

- Bill

[MikeK]

How about this. Why would Kanbun have us believe that someone else choreographed the form? Why wouldn't he take credit rather than give the credit to his teacher(s)?

Was Kanbun a proud and boisterous man or one who didn't really seek the spotlight? What did he think of his own abilities? Would saying that it was Chinese make it more palatable to his audience than saying here's a really nice kata that I worked up?

Did he tweak stuff? I could believe that. Was a system choreographed just for him by a talented teacher? I could believe that. (It was done often in China.)

Interesting idea Bill.
I also have to wonder how much tweaking he did in the time he wasn't teaching. It was quite a few years if I remember so he might have been playing with Sanseiryu for his own enjoyment and benefit. So while he may have brought something back he may have tweaked it into something different than it's original form.

[mhosea]

Oh I disagree, mhosea. SOMEBODY had to choreograph the form. We just don't have the author's signature on the piece of work.

How about this. Why would Kanbun have us believe that someone else choreographed the form? Why wouldn't he take credit rather than give the credit to his teacher(s)?

I'm not saying that it would be unlikely for Kanbun to have authored such a kata, rather that it is less likely that he authored this one than having learned it and brought it back from China. The simplest explanation consistent with all the evidence in this case is the traditional one. Not finding a kata in modern day China that supposedly existed a century ago is hardly enough evidence to discredit Kanbun Uechi's testimony to his students. The alternative is what? That Kanbun invented his own system in secrecy for 25 or so years and then started teaching it to Okinawans in Japan as an authentic Chinese system? Why? I believe at this time anti-Chinese sentiment in Japan was building.

[MikeK]

Mike, It's not uncommon that karate masters author a kata that is theirs.

The alternative is what? That Kanbun invented his own system in secrecy for 25 or so years and then started teaching it to Okinawans in Japan as an authentic Chinese system?

No, no and no. Let's say he learned the system in China, masters it, opens a school but then has a moral crisis when the irrigation incident happens. What's he doing for the next bunch of years? From what we can tell not a lot karate wise. Time passes and it's time to teach again, but he's no longer teaching Chinese the Chinese system that he learned. He may not even remember the kata as he learned them in China but he knows what's going on in Okinawa. So maybe he does a Funakoshi, but instead of making an Okinawan art more Japanese he makes his Chinese art more Okinawan.

Of course this is all just wild ass speculation on my part.

[Bill Glasheen]

These are all great hypotheses, and interesting lines of thinking. The historian and/or scientist would then look for evidence to support or reject any one of a number of these hypotheses.

Right now unfortunately it's difficult to come up with a lot of direct evidence. This is where indirect evidence (e.g. analysis of patterns within choreography) would serve as a weak but not entirely useless substitute. Whatever oral history we can collect is also better than no information at all.

This is not entirely satisfying, but... What are you going to do with a closed society such as China?

- Bill

[mhosea]

he makes his Chinese art more Okinawan.

Actually, I would think this much is very likely, although with hirakens, shokens, and boshikens everywhere instead of seikens and palm-heel strikes, the emphasis is on the word more and not Okinawan. Modifications are inevitable, but with so few kata and no particular reason to believe one way or the other that Kanbun didn't practice them once in awhile privately in the meantime, I'm not exactly buying the idea that he forgot 3 kata. Perhaps this somehow factors into his relationship with the 4th kata, e.g. having been taught many of the lessons from it but not having practiced the kata per se enough to feel comfortable teaching it, especially after the intervening years.

[MikeK]

Except for the bushiken, I've seen and been taught the same hand forms and targets in Shotokan, TKD and Isshinryu that Uechi uses. I don't think the hand forms are as important as the body mechanics and footwork. Sanchin looks like Sanchin, and while it has a kissing cousin in China, still looks Okinawan. Seisan to my untrained eye the footwork and mechanics still looks Okinawan, but Sanseiryu looks like something else. Now all of this could be just an issue of Okinawans using Okinawan mechanics while doing Chinese forms.

I'm not exactly buying the idea that he forgot 3 kata.

I can very easily buy that he forgot some of his forms or that they drifted from practicing alone or maybe he returned to his Okinawan roots. I've seen it happen several times where a master forgot a key kata after not practicing it for even a few years. I think he also may have just used somethings that would be somewhat familiar to Okinawans as a jumping off point to teach what he knew.

Once again this is just speculation on my part.

[Bill Glasheen]

Sanchin looks like Sanchin, and while it has a kissing cousin in China, still looks Okinawan.

I have to disagree with you here, mate.

Sanchin is a uniquely Chinese creation. There are many versions of it in myriad places in China.

The popular vein-popping, closed fisted, hissing version seen in Goju and Isshin Ryu comes from Higaonna's form which he got from China. More importantly, Goju and Isshin Ryu don't even practice the damn thing until green/brown belt level. And you never see most of the folks in those styles actually use it in their sparring and fighting.

Meanwhile, Fuzhou fighters generally embrace the shallow-stanced methods right from the get-go. Take a look at Wing Chun. They unapologetically fight in a similar shallow stance. Same with a few other systems such as White Eyebrow and Southern Mantis.

The fact that Uechika start with Sanchin makes the style unique on Okinawa.

- Bill

[MikeK]

While true, at least to me, it still looks like an Okinawan Sanchin. A better Sanchin, but still...

[f.Channell]

According to Robert Trias's books, Miyagi closed the fist in Sanchin.

He stated it had been open before.

According to him, Higaonna would have had an open hand. Probably like Uechi.

F.