Lawsuits to protect Free Speech against Religious Violence?

[mhosea]

That said, trying to eliminate contradictory truth claims between two groups is reconstructionist reconciliation. Let's not pretend it's anything else. Besides, the Church's political statements in efforts to keep the peace between Catholicism and other religions should not, IMO, be construed as doctrinally equal to Biblical authority.

Well, there's some of that, I guess, but elsewhere the Catechism is less conciliatory, albeit indirectly. There's no sense of reconciling conflicting claims. Both sides, I'm pretty sure, regard the other to be simply wrong on points where there is disagreement. However, the question of who can be saved and why is where conciliatory statements are warranted. Generally it seems inconceivable that you could worship God devoutly your whole live and then get chucked into the lake of fire because you were intellectually wrong about some things.

[AAAhmed46]

Gotta give the catholic church credit, most of the philosophical discourse taking place seems to be far more modern than Islam and alot of american evangelical christianity.

We muslims and the american evangelists still seem to be bickering about things the church seems to be far more resolved on.

[IJ]

Mike, I loved that you answered the question about the disco bombing seriously! That was just anther swipe at Islamofascism and the utter vacuity of their beliefs. Presumably you were aware. But thank you for remembering the only redeeming line from that confused entry to the Star Trek series.

Perhaps YOU can tell us how we'll know God? Or how that might work for you? If it makes you feel better, some say he is part of a trinity. So maybe the guy with the warp drive is the Holy Ghost?

[mhosea]

Perhaps YOU can tell us how we'll know God? Or how that might work for you?

I wish I knew, Ian. It's easier to be a critic than an artist.

[AAAhmed46]

Mike, I loved that you answered the question about the disco bombing seriously! That was just anther swipe at Islamofascism and the utter vacuity of their beliefs. Presumably you were aware. But thank you for remembering the only redeeming line from that confused entry to the Star Trek series.

Perhaps YOU can tell us how we'll know God? Or how that might work for you? If it makes you feel better, some say he is part of a trinity. So maybe the guy with the warp drive is the Holy Ghost?

Anyone see the startrek movie where Spocks half brother is looking for god? Not the best movie, but it had potential to be really good.

Wait im hearing something!!!

It's the voice of dawkins!

Dawkins is asking you all to give me your money and savings.

Oh in the name of great dawkins!

There is no god! And Dawkins is his prophet!

Just kidding, just kidding.

BUt still...money....

[Jason Rees]

Generally it seems inconceivable that you could worship God devoutly your whole live and then get chucked into the lake of fire because you were intellectually wrong about some things.

I don't know. This is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but if I were an all-powerful god who sent his son to die for mankind, and a chunk of them started following a child-molesting warlord, I think I'd chuck them in the fire too.

[AAAhmed46]

Generally it seems inconceivable that you could worship God devoutly your whole live and then get chucked into the lake of fire because you were intellectually wrong about some things.

Think it's more than that. From an islamic point of view, it's all about intention, and how clear you are with your intention, based on the principles you follow. If someone deep in their heart knows the truth but denies it, thats a big sin. But if they look at something, and for whatever reason do not accept it as the truth, even if it is, they cannot be held accountable for that. Why would someone burn in hell for that?

[AAAhmed46]

Deleted, got too pissed over deliberate provocation.


Though did you consider the second position(the one i believe) about aisha at all? Keep in mind, this entire contreversy your bringing up is not at all in the quran, it's completly a hadith issues, even the anti-muslims will tell you this is a hadith issue. This isn't mentioned at all in the quran. How did you think you read this in the quran when you read the quran?

[Jason Rees]

Deleted, got too pissed over deliberate provocation.

See, you take this far too personally.

Though did you consider the second position(the one i believe) about aisha at all? Keep in mind, this entire contreversy your bringing up is not at all in the quran, it's completly a hadith issues, even the anti-muslims will tell you this is a hadith issue. This isn't mentioned at all in the quran. How did you think you read this in the quran when you read the quran?

I find it a little too convenient that something inconvenient can simply be tossed in the rubbish can, even though forced marriages still happen in Arabic communities.

It's kind of like Mormons insisting Joseph Smith wasn't a racist, when the proof is there in his writing about blacks as inferior, and whites as 'perfect;' or someone teaching that Jesus wasn't a Jew; or that Bodhidharma wasn't ugly as sin.

[Panther]

It's kind of like Mormons insisting Joseph Smith wasn't a racist, when the proof is there in his writing about blacks as inferior, and whites as 'perfect;' or someone teaching that Jesus wasn't a Jew; or that Bodhidharma wasn't ugly as sin.

Read the LDS "Doctrine & Covenants" sometime... Cain slew Abel and he (Cain) & his descendants were marked for all eternity. I was also told that Spencer Kimball (the LDS profit... ummm prophet at the time) had met Cain, that Cain still walks the earth and that he and his descendants were "marked" by being black. (Yeah... I dated and nearly married a girl - we were both late teens to early twenties, so we're talking a LONG time ago now - who was Mormon from a strict family. Kinda fell apart when the whole "conversion" thingy didn't work on me... I asked too many questions and pointed out too many inconsistencies I guess... )

OK... back to the fun... Carry on!

Wait a sec... Jesus was a Jew? Bodhidharma was ugly?

Now you're just getting mean!

[Jason Rees]

Read the LDS "Doctrine & Covenants" sometime... Cain slew Abel and he (Cain) & his descendants were marked for all eternity. I was also told that Spencer Kimball (the LDS profit... ummm prophet at the time) had met Cain, that Cain still walks the earth and that he and his descendants were "marked" by being black. (Yeah... I dated and nearly married a girl - we were both late teens to early twenties, so we're talking a LONG time ago now - who was Mormon from a strict family. Kinda fell apart when the whole "conversion" thingy didn't work on me... I asked too many questions and pointed out too many inconsistencies I guess... )

My wife got hooked into it for a few years. Seemed to take forever to get her out of that stuff.

Now you're just getting mean! :mrgreen

Ever seen a statue of Bodhidharma?

[AAAhmed46]

See, you take this far too personally.

I would be lying if i didn't say I see it as a part of who i am. So yeah i take it seriously. But im willing ot listen and think about criticism. I certainly don't think this is blasphemy or hate, or that anyone asking this deserves punishmen. These are fairly common and understandable question/issue for anyone to have. Your not a 'hater' of anything obviously.

I probably wouldn't post about it if it didn't mean something to me though.

I find it a little too convenient that something inconvenient can simply be tossed in the rubbish can, even though forced marriages still happen in Arabic communities.

I believe it, because of the inconsistincies between the hadeeth literature saying one age, and what the time line historically says between her birth date and the marriage, as well as the age difference everyone said her sister was between herself. It's not the muslims who were the first people to point out the contridiction between the sunnah and the timelines(Hey, the arabs didn't keep birth or death records so i can see why the sunnah may have errors)
On marriage:
Only in tribal rural regions, and usually not because of theological disputes rather than straneg notions of nationalism or inheretence. Marriage in islam is very flexible. Two people meet eachother, like eachother, get a few witnesses, and get married. Usually everything is done chaperoned(blah spelling) by married individuals when single people meet so there is no hanky panky. Woman have the right to say no. This is seen throughout the sunnah of the prophet of woman shooting men down who propose marriage to them. Often for reasons pertaining to 'he's too ugly'
Lots of forced marriages in south asians communities. including south asian christians. You should hear about some of the crazy schit that happens all around there. Im not talking muslims either.

I have a story close to home, a 17 sikh girl loved this egyption boy. Her family however, hated it. They basically made her marry some 32 year old sikh man.

It's kind of like Mormons insisting Joseph Smith wasn't a racist, when the proof is there in his writing about blacks as inferior, and whites as 'perfect;' or someone teaching that Jesus wasn't a Jew; or that Bodhidharma wasn't ugly as sin.

From what ive seen, it looks like it was in the whole mark of Cain things. I remember some guys pulling the book out.

In their defense, there is nothing really saying that the skin colour is evil, just that Cain was a darky, and thus his decendents are darkies.

[IJ]

"Why would someone burn in hell for that?"

Why would a God need to send his own son as a sacrifice... to himself? The only reason this torture was necessary was because the God of the old testament demanded blood sacrifice. Point being: why should any of this make any sense? And we all know that the God of the old testament was a jealous God. Ever heard of the ten commandments?

"In their defense, there is nothing really saying that the skin colour is evil, just that Cain was a darky, and thus his decendents are darkies."

Yeah, well in response, it was not long ago and under the threat of the federal government that a divine, central revelation of the prophet for Celestial (plural) marriage was undone by another convenient revelation. And only a few decades ago, in 1978, again under pressure, that there was another revelation that those "darkies" (?!) wouldn't be banned from the priesthood.

http://www.suite101.com/content/mormoni ... ban-a48058

Racist revelations undone by times are changin' revelations: another clear sign that revelation is wrought by man and not from above.

[Jason Rees]

See, Ahmed? Once upon a time I was probably as thin-skinned as you were on matters of religion. Ian cured me, good doc that he is. Oh, the rambling discussions we've had here...

Your not a 'hater' of anything obviously.

Nope. Life's too good to waste on hate. That said, I've been accused of hating plenty of times, simply because I disagreed with somebody on matters like homosexuality. (don't get Ian started on that topic, btw. )

I believe it, because of the inconsistincies between the hadeeth literature saying one age, and what the time line historically says between her birth date and the marriage, as well as the age difference everyone said her sister was between herself...

See, this is what's called rationalization.

In their defense, there is nothing really saying that the skin colour is evil, just that Cain was a darky, and thus his decendents are darkies.

Actually, it's a common theme, through the Book of Mormon, in decrees about what people of color could do in their doctrinal statements, right up until the civil rights era. Just like multiple marriages was just fine with the Mormons until it threatened their ability to run a state in the Union. It's amazing how people can dump foundational practices so easily in the face of inconvenience.

[AAAhmed46]

See, Ahmed? Once upon a time I was probably as thin-skinned as you were on matters of religion. Ian cured me, good doc that he is. Oh, the rambling discussions we've had here...

Im more thick skinned than alot of muslims too, thats whats even more sad.

Nope. Life's too good to waste on hate. That said, I've been accused of hating plenty of times, simply because I disagreed with somebody on matters like homosexuality. (don't get Ian started on that topic, btw. )

But it's so easy to hate.

See, this is what's called rationalization.

I used to think thats what the mindset was. Honestly. But hadith was never ever really viewed as infallible. Of course, many imams TREAT IT as if it's just as relevant as the quran, but but by their own religious sciences and academics, hadith is not infallible.

So maybe i have validity to my position

Actually, it's a common theme, through the Book of Mormon, in decrees about what people of color could do in their doctrinal statements, right up until the civil rights era. Just like multiple marriages was just fine with the Mormons until it threatened their ability to run a state in the Union. It's amazing how people can dump foundational practices so easily in the face of inconvenience.

Did not know that. But what do the mormons have to say about that?

The only reason i jumped in this was to provide a muslim perspective.

What is the mormon perspective? How do they view it, more over, perhaps they are seeing something in their perspective we can't see?

Why not have a mormon poster come in and give some perspective.


Lots of use of the word 'perspective'.