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Which U.S. Military actions were acceptable? Redux

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 12:34 am
by Kevin Mackie
Now the world and Howard dean is calling for intervention in Liberia to avoid a huge human rights catastrophe. Dean has been outspoken against the war in Iraq and says that the Liberia situation is different. He says that Bush never made the case that Iraq was a threat to the world. Well there is no threat to the world coming out of Liberia, simply the death and mistreatment of its citizens. Isn't this what was happening in Iraq under Saddam Hussein?

Even if no WMD are ever found, wasn't the justification, ex post facto, as justified in Iraq as Dean is claiming it is in Liberia? I say it is. Dean seems a bit hypocritcal and is doing so only for the sake of his candidacy.

Now is a great time for Bush to put troops in Liberia. It's the right thing to do and will steal some of Dean's campaign thunder by showing his concern for human rihgts, not just the imagined motive of stealing Iraqi oil.

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:50 am
by Deep Sea
Good Morning Vietnam!!!!

I came close to posting along similar lines over the past several days, Kevin, but other issues have captivated my focus. Keep tuned in to papers which deliver alternate headlines fo a little while and keep up on your toes because
This cybarticle reads similar to what I remember from the sixties.


What I have to say I'm not saying is good nor bad, nor am I taking a stand in agreement or disagreement.

I smell flowering Yanqui expansionism in bloom. One never reads these words in newsprint, but we have become an American Empire, not just the United States of America anymore. Just look around you. I sometimes wonder if Roman troops in the British Isles were not unlike American troops in Iraq. Just something to think about.

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:58 pm
by Panther
The UN was founded supposedly to keep the peace, but in reality it has caused more conflicts in its quest to be THE world government! The U.S. needs to get out of the UN and kick them out of our country. Then we should spend the money we use to bribe the world and support the UN to pay down our own national debt, help our own people, and defend our own country.

Jefferson once said something along the lines that the U.S. should not and would not get involved with the political machinations pervading Europe at the time. Well, we shouldn't get involved with the political machinations anywhere in the world.

However, if we are attacked, we should respond and respond decisively. None of this "negotiated UN peace" that has left us with the world as created over the past 50 years. Fight for victory when we are attacked and maintain peace otherwise. No involvement because of other nations civil unrest or for natural resources. Military action should be taken to destroy those that attack us.

And we should start ferreting out enemies of the republic as founded both foreign and domestic. Too many have died for what this country was founded to be to let it get destroyed either from within or without.

<rant mode == off>

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 4:28 pm
by Deep Sea
<rant mode == off>
Love it.

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:37 pm
by IJ
So while not disagreeing with most of the sentiments expressed herein, are we to read them as:

1) it doesn't matter so much if the stated reasons for invading Iraq turn out to be inflated or imagined, since there were other good reasons for invading Iraq (although, if we find a lot of WMD, then that's the reason again) and

2) No interventions in civil unrests that don't pose an immediate threat--even if we think the outcome could make us safer or worse off and even if they involve genocide or other horrors against those who can't defend themselves?

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:24 pm
by Panther
Ian,

I could respond to your post (and will), but I'm going to wait and give others a chance first.

Take care and welcome back. Must have been a heck of a time at the hospital...

Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:28 pm
by Kevin Mackie
1) it doesn't matter so much if the stated reasons for invading Iraq turn out to be inflated or imagined, since there were other good reasons for invading Iraq (although, if we find a lot of WMD, then that's the reason again) and
I didn't write that or mean to imply that. I don't believe that thw WMD evidence was invented ot imagined or otherwise inflated. WMD were there, and I truely hope that they are found. The alternative could be worse; that they're in someone else's hands.
2) No interventions in civil unrests that don't pose an immediate threat--even if we think the outcome could make us safer or worse off and even if they involve genocide or other horrors against those who can't defend themselves?
My thought on this is that if intervention in Liberia is okay, (as the world and Dean states), to stave off the slaughter of civilians, then it was acceptable to go into Iraq for similar reasons, regardless of whether or not they had WMD. Civilians with no means to fight back were being murdered. I made myself clear when te first thread with this title came up. There are some people who cannot fight for themselves. Helping them is just. I just don't see any similarity with Vietnam as Alan alluded to.

Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:55 pm
by IJ
Here's part of the source of my concern about the mutable "reason" we went into Iraq:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/ ... index.html

Readers will notice a certain ideological slant, but the numbers speak for themselves. Excerpts:

"Before the Iraq war, a Knight Ridder poll showed that nearly half of Americans surveyed believed, erroneously, that there were Iraqis among the Sept. 11 hijackers. During the war, a Los Angeles Times poll showed that 59 percent of respondents were convinced, despite all available evidence, that Saddam was either partly or mostly responsible for Sept. 11. Now that America's failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is becoming an increasingly contentious political issue, a third of respondents in a University of Maryland poll believed that the weapons already have been uncovered. A fifth of those polled think Iraq actually used such weapons in the war."

In his State of the Union address on Jan. 28, Bush told Americans, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," though American intelligence agencies knew the only evidence underlying this assertion was a crude forgery. At his press conference on March 6, Bush said that Saddam Hussein "has trained and financed al-Qaida-type organizations before, al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations," though no link between Saddam and al-Qaida has emerged. On "Meet the Press" on March 16, Vice President Dick Cheney said, "[W]e believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons. On Polish TV on May 30, Bush said, "But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

Before the war, a CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll showed that only 38 percent of Americans felt the war would be justified even if weapons of mass destruction were not found. When the same pollsters asked that question two weeks ago, 56 percent of Americans felt the war was justified even if the weapons are never uncovered.

Says Ward, "I've been at demonstrations trying to talk to those who are in support of the Bush administration. It's remarkable how thoroughly convinced they are that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11. No matter what you tell them, they end up saying that the president knows things that you don't know. Even if true information gets out there, there's no guarantee it's going to convince anyone."

----

I for one haven't been particularly convinced that Bush either understands or communicates what is actually going on with the gulf war. This is the guy who during his pre-war press conference was asked a number of tough questions about the rationale and implementation, and his answers bore almost no relation to the questions. Each was a string of sound bites and platitudes about freedom and children and crap apparently committed to memory or printed on note cards at his lectern. As I watched I became convinced that either the man was completely unable to engage in a intelligent and spontaneous discussion and had to rely on prepackaged propaganda nuggets, or he was straight up lying to us.

I don't know which is more concerning, but there's something about the puppet concept that really terrifies me. Here's a guy who coasted thru school on his daddy's name, get drunk and used some coke, found God, made some $ with his connections, and a short time later is president of the United States of America. Why??? What was so attractive about a cadidate whose characterizations of the world are about as complex and diplomatic as action quips from the Star Wars films? It was as if people just got accustomed to the idea he was going to be the Republican candidate, and then that the war was on, without really thinking about it or deciding anything. For example, pre-war we were treated with a variety of headlines, that while nothing had really changed, gradually introduced us to the idea that war was basically already decided on, primarily on the basis of WMD threats, but now everyone supports the idea that we went in for humanitarian reasons, forgetting that the conditions in Iraq haven't changed in many years. We weren't for war before, and what changed was our perception of reality. Enemies were picked for a receptive public by our leaders. Didn't that happen in "1984" in a more conspicuous manner? Sure 1984 was worse, but it was satire, designed to call attention to more probable deceits in the real world. Isn't that where we are?

Note: nothing above should be construed to mean that I'm fond of any politicians NOT mentioned.