Andy Probably didn't say all this, but. . .

[gmattson]

if he didn't, he probably was thinking it:

You've probably gotten this before as I have, but it expresses my thoughts exactly........ would love to print it, enlarge it, laminate it & post it on my garage door!

Right on, Andy Rooney! Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes a few weeks back: (for those of you that don't know Andy Rooney, he is an 82 year old US TV commentator)

I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door. Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours. I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines.

I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them.

I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you. (Al)

It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say "NO!"

I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.

And if you don't like my point of view, tough. DON'T PASS IT ON!!

[Mills75]

God bless Andy Rooney Amen to every single word and this is truly the very very best set of statements I have ever heard.Thank God someone just calls it the way it really is.I also am so tired of this nonsense and this cuts right through to the honest truth and thank God.I'm a huge fan of Andy's for this very reason and his segement is a blessing I so wish there were many more young Andy Rooneys coming up in the system.I also like John Stossel with give me a break but he is no Andy Rooney though.This made my night to read this and I hope one day people will come back to their senses and stop living in a fog and realize what the man has said here is clear and concise and spot on.Thank God someone out there still tells the truth and doesn't deal in confusing and silly riddles when it comes to how they look at life.Rooney really is an American teasure I agree and love every word of truth this man spoke here..Thanks so much George and Andy.

Jeff

[Panther]

Rooney himself denied it in 2003, saying:

"About a year ago, I became aware of a more serious theft of my name and it is so hurtful to my reputation that it calls for legal action against the thief. Hundreds of people have written asking if I really wrote the 20 detestable remarks made under my name that have had such wide circulation on the Internet.
...
Some of the remarks, which I will not repeat here, are viciously racist and the spirit of the whole thing is nasty, mean and totally inconsistent with my philosophy of life. It is apparent that the list of comments has been read by hundreds of thousands of Americans, many of whom must believe that it accurately represents opinions of mine that I don't dare express in my column or on television. It is seriously damaging to my reputation."

Parts of it have also been credited to George Carlin, who's also denied it.

[gmattson]

a Rooney denial, does it. A double spoof??

[Mills75]

I believe in free speech and all of our rights as Americans regardless of race or any other factor but I read it and to me I don't find anything racist about it or anything that was distasteful.I agree with the opinions expressed in the statements even if Mr. Rooney really did not say them.I think the words serve to truly express thoughts of an equal land for everyone regardless of any factor.I think the words scream out loud lets have it equal and really equal for everyone and letsnot be silly or pick one over another that's what I get from it but it's one man's opinion and i respect everyone elses also.

Jeff

[Valkenar]

Well, even if his denial doesn't sound accurate, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that the original post is not true. It has all the hallmarks of a cleverly constructed troll post. Sometimes these things make it into email when they're taken seriously by someone who doesn't see them for the hoax they are and they pass into the realm of things everybody knows that just happen to be false.

Note that I'm not saying the statements themselves are wrong but just that the attribution of them to Andy Rooney is inaccurate. It is possible he said those things, I suppose, but I would sooner accept the denying statement that also claims his authorship.

As far as the content itself goes, I'm not impressed, to say the least.

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't know if it's a matter of being "impressed" or not. Rather, I take the remarks - one at a time - as challenging our "correct" way of thinking. Prejudice (by definition pre-judging) comes in all sizes, shapes, and colors. Too many act and speak before putting the mind in gear.

I think the moral of the story is stop being intellectually lazy.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

I think the moral of the story is stop being intellectually lazy.

How so?

I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.
...
I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.
...
Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you. (Al)

How do statements like these constitute an attack on intellectual laziness?

It seems ridiculous to rebut every point made in this article, but I fail to see how they are anything but intellectually lazy themselves. Al Gore never said he invented the internet (this statement is one of the chief indicators of trolldom, imho), that's a myth. Does repeating false statements really seem intellectually vigorous?

They call it homophobia to convey the idea of bigotry, not to indicate mortal terror (though I think there is a lot of fear in bigotry). He's just picking on the words, not the ideas. Racists aren't people who race and sexists... err, well you get the picture. People know what these words mean and trying to undermine the concept by attacking the words, while I time-honored tradition, is not exactly the antithesis of intellectual laziness.

As for tolerance, yeah, you have a right to privately hate anyone you want. What's the point? There are lots of things you have a legal right to do that you really shouldn't. Again, there's no shortage of intellectual laziness in being intolerant towards people simply because they're different.

[benzocaine]

I've seen this as a chain e mail before.. and it sounds more like George Carlin for sure.

Andy Rooney likes the phrase "Ever Wonder Why?"

That rant just isn't his style.

[Bill Glasheen]

I think it's a useful exercise considering what the guy (whomever he is) has to say before dismissing him outright. There's some truth buried in the problematic thinking here.

I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

Well yes, he does have a right to be intolerant of others. No arguments there. However he isn't going to be on my list of favorite people for doing so, and I have that right. Fair is fair.

It's worth finding out why someone ticks you off, and focus on the behavior (or one's reaction to it) rather than the individual.

I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

Here I have to agree with him. Some religions believe homosexuality (as opposed to homosexuals) is "wrong." Are we to deprive someone of their right to exercise their religious beliefs? This is shaky moral ground.

Listen to my own arguments on this some time. I heartily defend someone's right to practice their religion and exercise their religious beliefs, so long as they don't attempt to subject me (or others) to those religious beliefs when I disagree with them. Tolerance cuts both ways.

Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you. (Al)

This is an old joke. I have no information on its veracity or origin. Obviously the guy is a Republican. Fine... I bash trial lawyers a lot. It's all in good fun, and occasionally a subject of serious discussion.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

I think it's a useful exercise considering what the guy (whomever he is) has to say before dismissing him outright. There's some truth buried in the problematic thinking here.

Right, well I didn't say I refuse to read it, I said that having read it I was not impressed, by which I mean I didn't think he was right about much of anything.

Some religions believe homosexuality (as opposed to homosexuals) is "wrong." Are we to deprive someone of their right to exercise their religious beliefs? This is shaky moral ground.

Some religions believe homosexuality is wrong. Fine. They can believe what they want. If their opinion is that the earth should have no moon then they can believe that too, as long as they don't try to do anything about it.

I heartily defend someone's right to practice their religion and exercise their religious beliefs, so long as they don't attempt to subject me (or others) to those religious beliefs when I disagree with them.

Nobody's saying that people shouldn't be allowed to have whatever opinion they want. But if part of their exercise of religious beliefs is discrimination against homosexuals, well then I say, no, they don't get to exercise their religious belief that way. It's the old "your right to swing your fist ends at another person's nose" argument.

Just because an act is done because of a deeply held religious belief doesn't make it morally acceptable. I'm sure we can all think of some handy-dandy examples of this.

So my question again is, what's the point being made? Is it really just the semantic one about hatred-of-homosexuality not being fear? Well that's debatable, but more importantly, it's beside the point. Everyone knows what is meant by the word homophobia. Even if someone has a religious reason for their homophobia that's still what it is.

This is an old joke. I have no information on its veracity or origin.

It's old now, but a lot of people have believed it and meant it seriously as an example of Al Gore's flaws. I don't care for Al Gore much but he really didn't say that. If my word isn't good enough, maybe snopes is.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't buy the homophobia rap, Justin. And I will say this in the company of my friends who are gay and whose secrets will go to the grave with me.

We need to have a little better dialogue about this, rather than stifling free speech and making it go underground. Just because we throw labels at people who say things we don't like to hear doesn't mean we're going to change their minds.

It's kind of like the White Supremacists who came from the bowels of North Carolina up to Richmond to spout their hate. I'm a lot more in favor of letting them speak and seeing who is listening to them rather than undermining their ability to take a stage and drawing even more attention to them. It might be worth checking out what they are saying, and figuring out why they say what they say and believe what they believe.

As for not liking homosexuality (as opposed to hating homosexuals), well, so f***ing what? I defend his right to say that and believe it, and I defend the right of Muslims and Christians to preach what they want to their members. I feel I can no more make such a person lose his distaste for homosexuality than I can make my good friend Ian feel something move inside when he sees J-Lo's gorgeous butt. This guy is wired the way he is wired, and Ian is wired the way he is wired. Why not get the two talking to each other about something other than sex so they each can see what neat people they are outside these personal issues? You're going to go a lot farther.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing so much (as usual), Justin. I just like to challenge people on their "correct" ways of thinking. I don't want anyone to get lazy - least of all myself.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

I don't buy the homophobia rap, Justin.

Which aspect? All of it?

[qupte]
We need to have a little better dialogue about this, rather than stifling free speech and making it go underground. Just because we throw labels at people who say things we don't like to hear doesn't mean we're going to change their minds.
[/quote]

Wait a minute here, where did I say I wanted to prevent anyone from saying whatever they want? I said I didn't think much of the article, but I didn't advocate wiping it out of existance. Are you saying that it's too much of a stifling of free speech to comment on someone's publicly stated opinion?

Or are you saying that the labelling is the problem? Maybe that we should try to avoid making a word for the phenomenon of people hating homosexuals? It would be simply inconvenient to have to use a phrase like "person who hates, fears or dislikes homosexuals" whenever you need to refer to such a person in the abstract.

As for not liking homosexuality (as opposed to hating homosexuals), well, so f***ing what? I defend his right to say that and believe it, and I defend the right of Muslims and Christians to preach what they want to their members.

I don't think they should be restricted from saying any message they like either. Racism, homophobia, misogyny, it's a shame that people feel these things way, that doesn't mean censorship is the solution.

Also, there's a couple different senses of "not liking", and I'm not sure which you meant. There's not liking it in the sense of being totally neutral (as I feel about going bowling), not liking in the sense of disliking the experience of (as I feel about lima beans) and not liking in the sense of disliking the existance of (as I feel about racism).

All but the last are morally neutral when it comes to something like homosexuality. Personally, I think that it's wrong to dislike, or discriminate against people for their intrinsic nature, whether it's race, ethnicity, gender and so forth. Just because it's wrong doesn't mean it should be illegal. I'm sure many people think it's wrong to think the way I do, and of course they have every right to feel that way.

Yes, I would like bigotry to go away, but that doesn't mean I want it to be done by censorship (even if it were possible).

I feel I can no more make such a person lose his distaste for homosexuality than I can make my good friend Ian feel something move inside when he sees J-Lo's gorgeous butt.

I agree that you can't make someone lose their distaste for participation; Homosexuality is an in-born trait. But I don't agree that being repulsed by the sight of, for example, men kissing, is that set in stone. I think a lot of it comes down to familiarity and understanding.

For example, there are lots of people who would be repelled by seeing an animal gutted and prepared. But I think that given the right circumstances, most of those same people could learn to accept it as a perfectly reasonable thing, even if they still never wanted to do it personally. And I don't see why this couldn't be true about perceptions of homosexuality.

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm in agreement that we want to discourage discrimination. Absolutely no arguments there. However be careful. This guy said

if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion

That's addressing behavior, and not people. BIG difference. If someone doesn't like the way Person A and Person B does the hoochie koochie, well so what! As long as they accept them as individuals and treat them as human beings, then that's perfectly fine.

I agree some things are difficult to get used to. When I was a kid, seeing a black and white together as a couple was a big deal, and always caused stares. Now it's just background noise. Fine... And if Mary likes a certain ethnic group for dating and not another, well good for Mary, as long as Mary is tolerant of whom others choose and what they do behind closed doors.

- Bill

[IJ]

I consider myself something of a minor expert in this area, having lived it. Here's my terminology:

1) Homophobe: This is my college room-mate, who, after random lottery assingment to live with me, heard that I was gay and upon meeting me told me he didn't want to live with any homo who wanted to lick his dishes to give him AIDS.

He was clearly scared to have me in the apartment, and I think he would have had a cardiac arrest if I'd hugged him. Fear is borne of ignorance. He was ignorant to think I wanted to lick his dishes. He was ignorant to think I automatically had AIDS (or HIV)--especially when his risk was higher than mine. He was ignorant to assume saliva could transmit HIV, especially dry or in tiny quantities. Once he learned that I at least as normal than he was, and that I could proofread his english papers, he warmed up to me and relaxed. Based on how he talked about women, I'm sure he was insecure about his sexuality too. And he relaxed even more and became a friend when I made absolutely sure I found him utterly uninteresting.

2) Conscientious objector: My last random roommate in college was a geology major who thought the earth was 10,000 years old (added up the ages given in the Bible) despite all the evidence presented in his classes (he felt God had made it look that way, and I couldn't prove him wrong on that one). He thought homosexuality was wrong, but admitted he had flaws too, wasn't nervous or irrational or mean around me. We respectfully disagreed, and he was entirely pleasant and nice every moment I spent with him. He had no desire to use the law to limit other people's freedoms, of note.

3) Bigot: These were the five people who assaulted me on a whim after they spotted me holding hands with my partner. They're not expressing religious beliefs or principles. They're just hateful, violent people. They're also often ignorant (this is established by surveys linking knowing gay people to lesser odds of negative opinions of them) and there's also good evidence that a lot of hate comes from within (data's shown same sex attraction correlated with negative attitudes toward gays and there are a number of well documented people who've attacked gays while suppressing their own gay feelings. Roy Cohn comes to mind. These people are often homophobes as well.

4) Bigot apologist: in my mind, this applies to anyone who'd modify their political platform solely to get votes from people who happen to harbor phobic, bigoted, and less often objector feelings about a segment of the population. Especially if they hold up such a group's visceral dislike of gays as a bsis for public policy.

As for discussions, people CAN say whatever they want about homosexuality (provided its not incitement to violence). I can say anything in return. Everyone SHOULD be truthful when they speak--the invented need to "protect" the joneses from the gays down the street potentially getting rights is one example of free speech gone terribly wrong. And I think that while people have a right to their phobias, ignorances, and bigotries, as well as their personal religious beliefs, none of these four is a valid basis for public policy. Disapproval of gay people is infrequently just an "opinion." I don't think anyone should ever buy a hummer, but I don't get infuriated if I meet an owner, curse them, assault them, or try to break up their marriages and prevent them from serving in the military.

Regarding whether gays are a "minority," or what we should be termed, I don't care. I will say that I've never met someone who thought the idea of such a group identity was stupid who's 1) known a couple people who've had their jaws broken over who they are 2) had to carry a knife for self defense because of who they are; 3) worried a loved one was going to be killed because of who they are 4) been denied equal rights because of who they are 5) then been accused of being pushy for requesting them, like I have. Everyone I've met who's had those experiences knows darn well what it means to be part of a less favored group.

Know why people get po'd about the silly word "african american?" It's because they're being told to use it. Otherwise they wouldn't care, just like they don't care about driving on a parkway and parking on a driveway.