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The United States, which singularly accounted for 36 per cent of carbon dioxide emissions in 1990, has soundly rejected Kyoto as too expensive and wrong to exclude developing nations such as China and India from reduction targets.

* Considering that U.S. jobs are being lost to China and India.

* considering that the sudden dramatic increase in the price of oil is largely due to unexpected increased demand of oil from China and India,

* considering that the rate of growth of China's and India's economies is amongst the highest in the world,

* considering that their pollution standards are pathetic,

...I think then it's reasonable for the United States to ask for ALL countries to abide by global agreements on emission of pollutants. The U.S. emits the most greenhouse gases because the U.S. has the largest economy. Restrict only the U.S. and you create what we in healthcare call a balloon effect. (the pollution pops up somewhere else, and the net reduction is zero)

I think it's great we are worrying about greenhouse gasses. But we don't need any handicaps put on us in the global marketplace. Not unless you don't mind even more jobs being lost to countries that pollute more (per unit of economic output) and treat their workers poorly.

Fair is fair.

- Bill

The Kyoto protocol has some real problems. Loopholes that allow big polluters to buy their way out of it, for example. I'd rather have us sign an environmental treaty without these kinds of loopholes.

Remember, even Bill Clinton would not sign on to this treaty as he recognized what a drag on the US economy it would be. And that is in spite of the fact that his VP was one of the architects of the treaty.

Third world and emerging and formerly socialistic countries of the eastern bloc thoroughly trashed their environments and continue to do so. The Soviet Union, and now Russia, routinely dumped nuclear waste, scrapped reactors from retired naval vessels and hazerdous waste into the North Sea.

The US creates more than its 'fair share' of pollution because it produces more per capita of energy use than any other country in the world and is in fact the economic engine that drives the world.

Kyoto would drive the world into a massive recession and give countries that really do not even try to be 'green' in any way a huge advantage.

One case in point in China and India is that they continue to build and operate coal fired steam locomotives for their rail networks. These have zero pollution controls and blacken the air and countryside with centuries old technology. In this country if you belch any coal smoke the EPA would descend upon the offender in an instant, fines in hand.

Rich

RACastanet wrote: The US creates more than its 'fair share' of pollution because it produces more per capita of energy use than any other country in the world and is in fact the economic engine that drives the world.

A lot of that production benefits only ourselves, which is fine. What it means though is that to the extent there is a "fair share" of pollution, producing above that share is not excused by productivity that only benefits oneself.

Once again, listen carefully... The US drives the world economy! We feed much of the world. We lead the world in technology. We lead the world in medical breakthroughs.

Look at the winners of the Nobel prizes in medicine, science, economics... over the years they are largely from the US. Look at patents... The US leads the world. Look at productivity... the US leads the world. look at who funds the UN.

Justin: Why do you look so hard at the negatives in this great country?

I was being facetious about 'fair share'. Who in the world is so great and righteous so as to say what a fair share should be?

My wish? Stop funding the UN. Stop payouts to all countries. Stop sending food to all countries. Make it or fail on your own. Survival of the fitest only.

Rich

A question for you Justin... In Massachussetts, the tax form allows you to pay more than whatever the tax systems requires. When you have any money left over at the end of the year (think of it as 'excess productivity') do you send it in to the goverment that needs it so badly for their social programs, or are you 'greedy' and save it for yourself? To spend on something frivilous like a CD, a DVD, Starbucks coffee?

Do you recycle everything? Do you walk when you can instead of driving? Do you carpool? Do you use AC in the summer? In your car? Do you set your temp over 68 degrees in your home in the winter?

Let me ask you this... If the world entered a chaotic state with the end of civilization as the terrorists would have it, could you actually do anything of value? I can fish and hunt. I know how to mine coal... make pig iron... fashion tools... harness wind and water for energy. I'm a very good mechanic. A gunsmith. An engineer. Certified in First Aid, CPR, the use of defib machines.

I can make a difference. I have made a difference. I continue to make a difference. Tell me, what are your volunteer activities to improve someones lot in life?

By the way, I invest my 'excess productivity' wisely.

Rich

RACastanet wrote:Once again, listen carefully... The US drives the world economy! We feed much of the world. We lead the world in technology. We lead the world in medical breakthroughs.

In my original version of the post I asked about export/import figures, but then I realized I could just do some research myself. I recognize we do many things globally, I'm not saying that we're this terribly selfish beast or anything.

Justin: Why do you look so hard at the negatives in this great country?

I don't, generally. But on these boards it's preaching to the choir to say "America is a great country, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else at this moment in time." What would be the point? But my point of view is somewhere in the middle. I think America does a lot of great things, and I think it does some bad things as well. Since the great things that happen are covered pretty well by others here, you mostly get the opposite from me. But when my friends talk about how bad America is in some respect I try and get them to see the good things America does.

I may not have the most realistic point of view in the world, but I try to, as far as I'm able. And that means trying to look objectively at what goes on. By no means am I some super-genious with all the right ideas. But one of the ways to learn is by offering up your ideas for discussion and seeing why other people think they're wrong.

I was being facetious about 'fair share'. Who in the world is so great and righteous so as to say what a fair share should be?

That's exactly why I said "to the extent that there is" and kept the quotes on "fair share"

Make it or fail on your own. Survival of the fitest only.

I don't believe social darwinism is a valid concept (http://www.ioa.com/~shermis/socjus/socdar.html was the first example I got in a search and makes a few points) . There are many reasons survival of the fittest does not apply to social situations. And beyond that, I just don't think it is morally supportable. I know that even you have said there should be some safety net (for the handicapped, for example), so bear in mind that I'm not saying that every little personal failure needs to be propped up by the government or anyone else.

In Massachussetts, the tax form allows you to pay more than whatever the tax systems requires ... are you 'greedy' and save it for yourself?

I'm greedy, no bones about it. As for what I spend that money on, I spend very little money discretionarily. I save it up and invest it. I invest it with a small company that does what's called "socially responsible investing", which means they won't recommend mutual funds or investments to me that include companies failing to meet a set of ethical criteria based on employee treatment, environmental concerns and so forth. I probably earn less money than I might otherwise, but I do get some satisfaction from knowing that my money is being used this way.

Also, I have never advocated equalizing everybody by transferring wealth from the rich to the poor (well, not since I was 14 anyway). In an ideal world is everyone equal? Sure. But I don't think for a minute that such a world can exist.

Do you recycle everything?

I try to, though I fail.

Do you walk when you can instead of driving?

I have a car, but I stopped driving two years ago. Now I commute by bike instead. I'm planning to give my car to a friend. I do take rides from people when necessary, and sometimes I borrow a car if I need to get somewhere I can't reasonably get without it.

Do you use AC in the summer?

I do. I'm not perfect. Next summer I plan to do better than I did this summer with limitting my AC use.

Do you set your temp over 68 degrees in your home in the winter?

If I had my choice I'd never set it above 50. I like the cold. However, my housemates don't feel this way, so it gets set to varying temperatures.

If the world entered a chaotic state with the end of civilization as the terrorists would have it, could you actually do anything of value?

Well, terrorists don't want the end of civilization exactly, but I won't address that fully right now.

If the world word to come crashing down around me I think I would get by at least a little better than average. Can I list everything I am capable ofdo? No. I'm absolutely sure you're beat me in a survivalism pissing contest, but I have taken an academic interest in things like how to live off the grid, how to prepare animals for food and how to live off the land. I haven't fished in a while, but I used to be into it enough that I had to Field and Stream. If nothing else I could burn my backissues to keep me warm for a night or two.

I don't really feel like defending my existance in general terms, but I assure you that I'm not a totally ineffectual slob.

I can make a difference. I have made a difference. I continue to make a difference. Tell me, what are your volunteer activities to improve someones lot in life?

Is volunteering at a homeless shelter too much like welfare or is that valid. I haven't volunteered as much time, nor as recently as I'd like, though this pass summer I've started exploring options that I can fit into my lifestyle. It would be easier if I were retired. I went to an orienting session a couple weeks ago for Habitat for Humanity. Is that a valid enterprise, or is it too much like a giveaway?

Do I contribute at all to problems I see in the world? Yes, I do. I admit that, and try to remedy it where I can. Implicit in your questions is the assumption that I've said somewhere that everybody has flawlessly perform all the things you're asking me about... is that fair of me to say?

Justin: That was a very balanced and thoughtful reply.

You missed my point completely when you said: " I'm absolutely sure you're beat me in a survivalism pissing contest,"

This was not meant to be an issue of survivalism. If we stripped away the trappings of our technological society and were in an agrarian society, such as many third world countries are, what could you contribute? Would you have any value or would you sit back and live of of the 'doers'? If you had a sack of flour, could you be a baker? Could you frame a house? Do you have any basic skillsets to thive longterm and help others thrive longterm?

What frosts me are those who complain about our society and drive around in a BMW while yakking on a cell phone. Lots of hypocrits out there.

Kerry really hit this on the head a few months ago while being interviewed on live TV in front of the Pittsburgh mansion I believe, and was asked about the SUV in the driveway. He replied that it was not his. It was the family's. OK. Here is someone decrying Bush's record on the environment and oil prices, and he will not acknowledge that there just might be an SUV in his life.

Or, the Sierra Club, always whining about something, and then driving around in their corporate company Suburbans!

Any volunteerism is fine, as long as it is not coerced and from the heart. But, be certain to let me know about the first home you help build. Talking about it is worth ZERO.

You said: "Well, terrorists don't want the end of civilization exactly"

But, they do want to end our civilization. And, they want to prevent the effects of westernization from elevating the women in their society above a subservient status.

You mentionioned import and export numbers. I hope you found them. The trade imbalance favors the low cost manufacturing areas of the world, like China. The hundreds of millions of dollars they get from the US drives their economies. It also keeps our costs down so it is a not altogether bad thing for the US.

The defict numbers ignore the fact that we are getting a good value. I can buy a DVD player now for about $30. That is incredible considering the technology inside. Yes, my $30 went offshore, but now I have a great piece of high tech equipment instead. The deficit is really zero. It is a deficit only if I send $30 to China and receive no value in return. So, everybody wins when US dollars move around the world.

Rich

One more note... Tonite on the local Fox station Sinclair Broadcasting's report on Kerry's effect on the POWs will be aired. Be sure to watch it if it comes to your area so you can listen to the accounts first hand.

Rich

The good news: this isn't an either or. We don't have to kill our productivity to use energy wisely. Take the Hummer. It's merely a status symbol on wheels, consuming tons of fuel while offering little sport utility, which is something 95% of SUV drivers don't need anyway, and few pasenger amenities either. It's just stupid. We don't need to all drive a prius, but we can make a half effort...

We're an overweight country and it's hard to get people to take one flight of stairs. Elevators use the most electricity of any of the devices in a hospital by far--you learn when your power goes out in Boston I do 11 flights of stairs and haven't been in an elevator in i dunno how long.

We have sweaters, or shorts... but I know people who keep their place 74 in the winter and 68 in the summer. What gives?? My place was ok at 60-64 all winter.

Here in the desert, all kinds of yahoos are trying to water their land into looking like costa rica. How long will the water last?

We're not going to do a perfect job. But people could at least FAKE an effort with some of these things.

Amen, brother Ian.

- Bill

P.S. Ian, you need to update your profile.