Forward Thought Progression

[Rick Wilson]

Forward Thought Progression


In watching the Gary Lam video clips one of the skills I saw him demonstrate was: Forward thought progression.

So what they is that?

When we are surprised we may have to have some absorption before we gain the upper hand.

So how does this differ from “going backwards?”

For one thing the absorption is done in a manner to gain a strategically advantaged position.

The second point is that it is done with “Forward thought progression.”

Oooohh fancy words.

Picture two pieces of board pressed together so that they can act like one board.

We take them and we push a body of water with them.

IF the body of water rushes away and continues to move away, then we could separate the two boards and the water would NOT flow between them because it is moving away.

However, if as the board is pushing the water something is on the other side providing just enough pressure to keep the water pressing up against the board as it moves along THEN the instant the boards separate the water will rush into that crack.

This is forward thought progression.

Even as you wave backwards to absorb and avoid an ambush attack your mind is pressing forward and will fill in any crack to assume the attack.

If you watch the Gary Lam video clips you can “feel’ his mind is pressing foreword allowing him to easily assume the attack even after a passive first parry.

[JimHawkins]

If you watch the Gary Lam video clips you can “feel’ his mind is pressing foreword allowing him to easily assume the attack even after a passive first parry.

Well I have a slightly different take on this aspect..

Forward intent is cool but in WCK it is also always accompanied by a forward physical action or property as well.

In the vids Gary normally starts his 'counter' with a pak or in English, a ‘slapping hand’, this is something else I had a chance to work a little with the folks in Boston. The key in WCK teachings in the energy component used in the move, this is what makes it work or not and special attention is paid to energy vectors, or in English, the direction that the force uses to displace the incoming force.

Now I’m not sure how folks think this is done, but it is not just a slap and truth be told it is not completely passive, despite my comments and general position on the movement as passive. Most ‘parries’ in WCK are done, not with a crossing motion or vector with respect to the centerline, though there may be a little of this, rather the Pak or slap is a forward one, meaning quite simply it slaps the attack away by slapping directly forward into the center. This effect is most noticeable when the person doing the Pak commits fully forward and then presses the opponent’s arm onto his chest and explosively moves him backwards. This is possible because the pak energy is vectored directly into the line or center of gravity of the opponent. However, even if the energy used is less and not enough to move the opponent backward the effect on the balance and intent of the attacker is much the same in terms of a destabilizing effect.

So in short, while forward intent is good there is always a forward SPRING in the energy used in WCK something that makes the succession and forward progression and space filling possible with the moves used. This is also critical when the opponent’s energy recedes as immediate and unconscious filling with no time gap is also essential.

So while forward 'thought' is important, IMO what's more important is the resulting physical quality in motion and action. In the end there is a forward centerline intent and energy in most of these moves and concepts, even when not in contact or in motion - or being relaxed with a forward centerline intent or Yi that manifests itself both mentally and physically, whether in motion/action or just before the action or motion takes place.

And this forward energy component is the desired objective and focus of nearly all of the many WCK training components and is at the heart of what WCK is all about.

[Rick Wilson]

Without forward intent there can be no spring there can be no resulting (key word resulting) physical action to express the mind intent.

[JimHawkins]

Not trying to disagree with you Rick, just throwing out my viewpoint on this stuff.

I like to deal with specifics of action and energy in the physical. To me the forward energy training and concepts and their manifestation, meaning the how and the when and the why take president over general ‘mind intent’ in the way this stuff is trained.

Meaning that 'using intent' is cool but when you go to show someone how this stuff works or try to get them to do this in drills the cultivation of forward energy can get very involved. One may need to use many different ‘mental intent’ tools and tricks to get the person to the point where they are able to just *replicate* the concept or action at a conscious level, it is often a complex building process that takes many steps and much time. This action finally happens in the physical, which is specific. Then the lessons go back and get integrated into the mental intent, which puts it all together as one for application in general, and then back again to the physical in action in specific.

I am a product of my WCK training and in that training there was little discussion of mind intent per se. Rather we were taught to let the 'hands' do what is needed with little interference from the mind, focusing 'intent' mainly on facing and following the center. So we let the body perform the specific actions by itself, naturally and automatically, as the mind maintains a more situational awareness. Like when you drive what is the intent? To drive right? And situational awareness – right? This is a general state of intent and I contend much the same in combative application.

When the hands just do what they are trained to do no specific mind intent is either required or desired IMO except perhaps the intent to attack and situational awareness. On this aspect Bruce used to say… ‘and then it hits all by itself..’ At this level the mind has no time to formulate a specific ‘intent’ to the problem, yet maintains a general focus and awareness.

So in my posts I focus specifically how the muscles/body are used to generate energy as opposed to intent, which in my way of thinking/training is the final general product that employs the specifcs of how this is done, which is trained first. This is the focus in WCK training especially in the Ip Man lineage, which kept things largely to a clear physical explanation of concept manifestation from a physical and bio-mechanical training standpoint.

In fact, while I agree that the mind leads the body, I have found that how the mind generates physical intent is going to be a product of the physical training which instills energy and other physical concepts/attributes and strategies in the ‘body’ meaning subconscious specifically, which then becomes available through initiation of ‘mind intent which is more general IMO.

[Rick Wilson]

More tomorrow (tonight) but Jim you can disgree with me too you know!

Discussion is good.

Disagreements often lead to the best discussions.

[JimHawkins]

Not even sure we really disagree here.

I'm just addressing how the physical aspects of this training manifest and how mind intent may play a role in that specific progressive process verses an overall combative mindset.

After all, Gary got to where he is by going though many steps of specific energy training that no doubt involved a myrad of different mental mind-setting tweaks along the way to get it to all come together.

This is just the difference in "mind intent" between the steps in the building process verses the final product in application, clearly the process comes before the product.

[Stryke]

Good stuff guys

Me and Rick differ a little on intent with the whole hot and cold thing


I`d have to agree with both of you , But I see it as the spirit leading the body , the mind being surpassed or at the least maybe channeling the intent , however not generating it . Mind/Body/Spirit stuff .

inspiration or emotional content if you will ....

I know Ive just muddied the waters though , the conversation was much more constructive and clear when it was just you guys ....

I personally am focusing more on forward energy these days , not so much forcing but blending which is what i think Rick was getting at , But i feel it needs a intent or inspiration , forward is one , It can be around , or down , But I need feeling to draw it together .

And it all ends up looking like a rapid flurry of Jostling grabbing and hitting , so maybe I need to keep meditating .

[JimHawkins]

I personally am focusing more on forward energy these days , not so much forcing but blending which is what i think Rick was getting at , But i feel it needs a intent or inspiration , forward is one , It can be around , or down , But I need feeling to draw it together .

And it all ends up looking like a rapid flurry of Jostling grabbing and hitting , so maybe I need to keep meditating .

I change all the time what I think the final intent should be.

But the training is specific and it's the only way I know to build what Gary does, which is also what I do..

In the training the forwardness is there but in very specific ways and very much more in the body than the mind. Hence Bruce's quote, which actually relates to a concept called 'the freed hand shoots the line.'

These sudden changes in energy are too abrupt to come from the conscious mind....it must come from the body. In the chi sao training the forward pressure is subtle, from the elbow supported by the body and released from the point of contact, like the wrist, forearm or hand/fist, and because of that forward physical component all else becomes possible within the scope of WCK tactics – we stay on the line, let them leave and then fill that space that opens up…

Deflecting energy also has a forward component, like a boat moving ahead yet it creates a wake that moves out to the sides..

Because of the reaction time thing we think of the body and ‘hands’ as learning 'the lesson' more than the conscious mind and then in combat once the body has internalized the lessons, intent for me is very general and devoted to big picture issues like attack, facing and following aka tracking.

The main point of my post was that this 'passive slap' (Pak) is a forward slap, which can also press... the what and the how... All these elements must be trained step by step and no particular variation on mental intent will eliminate the need to train these specific steps that ingrain these concepts...the when and the why...

In training these things one deals with the minutia, the bits and pieces at a micro level. Then one finds the need to vary and adapt the mindset or intent to facilitate assimilating the smaller picture of the day's lesson.

Later on in combat the mindset, intent or focus will change to big picture issues, while the body is freed to do that which it has been trained to do.

That's mainly it..

BTW: Marcus if you ever wish to talk about WCK sticking work feel free to PM me and I will be happy to discuss.

[Stryke]

In the training the forwardness is there but in very specific ways and very much more in the body than the mind. Hence Bruce's quote, which actually relates to a concept called 'the freed hand shoots the line.'

This is the first time Ive really got this Jim , It`s basically filling the path of no resistance , the forward pressure being more than leverage but increasing sensitivity almost , resistance on there part becomes a lever , and yeilding becomes an entry or jam .

I`m starting to see far to many traps in my shotokan kata .... Im truly lost

I`ll take you up on the pm , just got to work out some of the language

[JimHawkins]

This is the first time Ive really got this Jim , It`s basically filling the path of no resistance , the forward pressure being more than leverage but increasing sensitivity almost , resistance on there part becomes a lever , and yeilding becomes an entry or jam .

BINGO!!

The elbow is sooo important with this...

I`m starting to see far to many traps in my shotokan kata .... Im truly lost

This is interesting..not sure what you mean though...

I`ll take you up on the pm , just got to work out some of the language

Anything in English will do fine..

[Rick Wilson]

Had a chance to read everything properly finally. Although we come from different (but not that much different) approaches we are after the same thing. Which is perhaps why I see FTP in Gary Lam’s clips.

This goes back to a previous post where I try to distinguish between “conscious” thoughts or those verbalized in your head and the “primal” thoughts. I agree completely that you cannot be thinking: “Okay now I will press foreword with my right forearm angling off the incoming strike as I slide step with my left lead leg…… read as “how to die in one easy lesson.”

The mind leads the chi, the chi leads the body.

We work a great deal on the physical aspects of forward intent but at the same time we work the “mindset” or the mental intent as well.

Watching Gary Lam’s video clips whatever approach was used worked very well as far as I can see because he has FTP.

“And then hits by itself” ---- YES YES YES I agree completely in fact we often phrase this as seeing with your weapons. Your hand will see the opening and take it.

I guess the only difference in approach is I see this as an action of the primal mind rather than the “body.” Here it really is semantics because we are saying the same thing with different words.

Marcus: no detraction at all. I just see the mind leading the spirit and the spirit leading the body is all.

[Stryke]

Hey Rick , good stuff

The mind leads, the chi the chi leads the body

Marcus: no detraction at all. I just see the mind leading the spirit and the spirit leading the body is all.

I do think in a way where fairly close on this Rick .

I think the difference is where we place importance of attributes .

you seem to me to perceive the mind controlling spirit/intent

where as I feel the spirit Inspires the intent/mind

I think the net result is probably the same .

I just dont buy the thought that my spirit resides with my conciousness .

Also i dont like the word spirit I use it for communication only , I`d prefer something like devine inspiration

Essence

man If I read this stuff without knowing myself

Hey Rick , I think it is semantics ... those that know me wont be surprised to know I dont reside in my head