Chink in the Armor

[Guest]

There was a recent thread in which Bronze Dago questioned the outcome of a karate fighter vs a boxer.

IMHO boxers don't have the hard Sanchin training of a superior Uechi kicker like Kiyohide Shinjo or Ric Martin and I am sure there are many more that have awesome, destructive and poweful kicks that would either break the boxer's leg, knock the boxer down, or destroy the boxer's will to fight.

In addition, a boxer's body conditioning is developed through being punched by a gloved fist which distributes the force of the blow over a relatively wide surface in contrast to a penetrating shoken to the heart or vertical elbow strike. One might mention many other Uechi techniques such as a bushiken to the nose that drives the cartiledge into the boxer's brain or shokens to the throat or eyes.

Superior strategy defeats superior technique. Superior firepower can blow the boxer out of the ring.

A small contingent of Austrailian Uechi fighters visited us in 1993 to compete in the US championships. They were exceptionally well-conditioned in many respects, tough like Thai kickbockers. One particularly tall man could bust five bats in a rack with his roundhouse and snap two 2x4's with his shin kick. I suppose they came to spy out the opposition. Curisioty kills the cat!

Despite their dominent attitude, James Human realized that their weapons were exceptional but their Sanchin conditioning was suspect, and James beat the large Australian man in 1993 in Largo, FL with devestating thigh kicks and body punches. In 1994 Sensei Martin defeated him in Okinawa for the Uechi World Championship.

A really supurb Uechi fighter is hard to beat in any arena!

[Bill Glasheen]

Who would win? It depends...

* What 2 individuals are you talking about? Is it an aging Uechi health-club practitioner vs. the WBA heavyweight boxing champion? Is it a kid who just started boxing vs. Ric Martin?

* What equipment will be used?

* What rules will there be? Is this sport or street?

In the early days of U.S. karate, karate fighters used to try to take boxers on in the boxing ring. And generally the karate fighter got thrashed. Why? He usually was fighting against the boxer in his ring, and generally boxing-type rules were used. Plus, a good boxer knows both how to take a hit and how to dish it back out.

These days, there are a lot of sport fighters who are "mixed." It's difficult to peg anyone these days. Just what is Joe Pomfret, with his Uechi and BJJ training?

And the street is the street. Not everyone has what it takes mentally to engage in a real brawl. And military operations - conventional or special forces - are another venue altogether.

But we armchair experts can hypothesize all day long behind our keyboards.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

IMHO boxers don't have the hard Sanchin training of a superior Uechi kicker like Kiyohide Shinjo or Ric Martin and I am sure there are many more that have awesome, destructive and poweful kicks that would either break the boxer's leg, knock the boxer down, or destroy the boxer's will to fight.

It's not Boxing vs. Standup Martial Art "X" it's Kick Boxing or Muay Thai (Full Contact Fighting) vs. Standup Martial Art "X". And even then it's not really about these labels, it's about what attributes are cultivated or not in training...

a boxer's body conditioning is developed through being punched by a gloved fist which distributes the force of the blow over a relatively wide surface

As opposed to learning to take bare handed love taps?

in contrast to a penetrating shoken to the heart or vertical elbow strike.

Lot of folks training full contact elbows and shokens to the heart are there?

Depending on experience and weight class many boxers take hits repeatedly that would drop the average TMA.

One might mention many other Uechi techniques such as a bushiken to the nose that drives the cartiledge into the boxer's brain or shokens to the throat or eyes.

Anyone done this lately?

Anyone tried working any of 'their stuff' on an opponent trying to rip your head off lately? That's what 'boxers' do...

Superior strategy defeats superior technique.

Superior strategy on paper means nothing. Superior attributes developed through realistic progressive resistance that leads to actual fighting will produce a superior fighter.

The big difference between many TMA and full contact fighters is that the fighters actually fight... Most TM Artists want to claim fighting 'prowess' based on theory, which is all fine and dandy until you meet up with someone who actually fights..and there are many levels of fighters but fighters are fighters. You must test and refine all the time... If you really want to see if something works try it on someone who actually fights reasonably well.

Great words of advice on a similar topic here:

The main problem with the technique is that it is like so many other traditionally based techniques. A couple of fellows get together and decide that because they are skilled in martial arts, that they can come up with the best ways to attack people <snip>

Then they have the whole willing suspension of disbelief going on where they use all of their weapons and the attacker is a moron and doesn't use his off-hand or feet, elbows and knees, etc. He's committed and he's not changing his ways, he's telegraphing and all of these things in a controlled environment can make you come up with high kick defenses against fast men with knives, etc.

The illusion can be blinding, to be sure you must test compare and refine.

Like someone has in their sig around here..

In Theory practice and theory are the same, in practice they are not...

[Guest]

I never posed that question. I already know the answer as I am involved in both practices.

[Guest]

relatively wide surface in contrast to a penetrating shoken to the heart or vertical elbow strike.

Oh fer gods sake!

This epitomizes what I have been talking about! All this mythological boloney being passed around!

One might mention many other Uechi techniques such as a bushiken to the nose that drives the cartiledge into the boxer's brain or shokens to the throat or eyes.

This is an old wives tale! This does not work! Does the military teach this crap to it's troops? NO!

Shokens to the eyes!!!!! What would 99% of you do if you popped an eyeball somehow and the juice squirted out all over your face? You'd cry like a little baby and beg god for forgiveness.

It's like Jim said, show me the proof that this crap actually works. I'm sick of reading about it all the time, it reminds me of all the time I wasted in the Dojo pretending to learn how to fight.

Also, take note of how John places his Sensei on a pedastal and refers to "everyone elses" deadly kicks but not his own. This is the place where some Sensei's want you to be, looking to them as a great hero but at yourself as unworthy. John, if you studied karate for as long ago as when Tosh was in Florida then you should have developed the power in your kicks by now to "break a boxers legs" without having to make a point based on someone elses techniques. Could it be that deep down inside you know that your uechi eagle claws are good for husking corn but thats about it????

[brothermanontario]

I must disagree shokens are not useless. They are a very potent strike that can be delivered to vital areas causing finishing damage. i hit a street fighter in the chest withe 2 shokens and he fell and could not continue to fight. I was told later that I cracked his sturnum. I think you must have a me before them attitude and use whatever comes naturally. kicks are not always the best weapon especially against a good fast punching boxer. I had no choice and do not regret it . I believe in the karate way of avoid violence but in todays world you must be realistic. it is after all a Martial art.

Thank you

[f.Channell]

I'm not one to say that a lay person who knows nothing doesn't acquire some ability to protect themself from martial arts training. Because they do.
But I've been Sanchin tested by Shinjo, Maemiya, Takimayagi, Miyagi, Gushi and others down through the years. But none of them were intent on taking me out when they hit me during a Sanchin test. A big drunk 300 pound biker would be. So I don't buy the conditioning stuff. Sure it's great to be able to break bats. But bats don't move when you come after them.
In fact I've seen guys with fractures in their legs continue to fight from the adrenaline dump. MMA fighters condition their legs in the same way we do. But more often, daily.

Some of the best Uechi fighters I ever saw coming up the ranks were trained at a school which had a Uechi and boxing program together in the 70's and 80's. It was one of Jack Summer Sensei's schools.

If one questions any other sport or art and it's effectiveness why not go workout there a few times and see for yourself.

It's not really boxing against Karate, but man against man.

F.

[Guest]

Drive cartilidge into the brain??????? Thought that died out with reaching under the rib cage and pulling out the heart.
Or ripping off someones testicles. Seems the mythical still abounds. Btw boxers hit pretty hard how come there have been no ring deaths involving this injury with the nose?:lol: Can not be done I suspect.

[Betsy Minatani]

[quote="Bill Glasheen"]...

* What 2 individuals are you talking about? Is it an aging Uechi health-club practitioner vs. the WBA heavyweight boxing champion? Is it a kid who just started boxing vs. Ric Martin?

* What equipment will be used?

* What rules will there be? Is this sport or street?



Bill,

Thank you for posing these questions. It is impossible to speculate style -vs- style, who would win. I have always felt it came down to fighter -vs- fighter and as you pointed out; equiptment, rules, and situation are a huge consideration. Certainly styles have their benefits and their shortcomings, but it is blatent and unfounded to say one style would come out on top in the ring.

Just my two cents...although I won't loose sleep over it.

Betsy Minatani

[Guest]

Here is an essay on the boloney karate strike to the nose thing:

http://tinyurl.com/9jjle

It sounds to me like you hit the guy in the chest and hurt him but probably not because you had shokens, just because....

[Guest]

consideration. Certainly styles have their benefits and their shortcomings, but it is blatent and unfounded to say one style would come out on top in the ring.

Just my two cents...although I won't loose sleep over it.

Betsy Minatani

If John is trying to pit me against his World Champion Sensei, I would have to say that I would win, for two reasons, the first being, I'm not stupid enough to "box" with a world karate champion, and the second being that I would stoop to unimaginable sub-human levels to ensure my survival. That much, I can promise.

[Guest]

I'm a fan of iron shirt but it does not make you invincible. a good crack on the button puts that one to rest.

Style vs style threads degenerate into flame wars quickly. hope this one does not.

My first sensei saw value in boxing, so much so that he taught us all some. He also brought in a pro trainer for his competetive fighters. It proved so sucessful that one of his fighters fought Bill Wallace for the PKA super middleweight championship. Jimmy brought in lots of world ranked boxers for the guys to train with. It paid off.

I have marginal boxing skills but I pass them on to my students. I like them to learn to box a wee bit before they go all out uechi sparring. I feel boxing teaches how to load up your shots and how to move in around strikes better than any other training I have experienced. The skills they pick up must be of some value, my white belts did pretty well in their last tournament against black belts ,...they won.

[Mills75]

I just have to applaud the mention of Jack Summers cause he is one of my heroes and I hope to meet him in person one day since my teachers school is under the supervision of Jack Summers. I think Jack began training in like 1960 and my sensei began training in 1978. Jack seems like a great guy and I had heard of his boxing experience that goes along with all the other great stuff he knows.

That's all I was just happy to see the name Jack Summers mentioned cause I think a lot of him. As for the thread I stand opinionless because I never trained as a boxer and couldn't make comparisons.

Jeff

[Guest]

If one questions any other sport or art and it's effectiveness why not go workout there a few times and see for yourself.

Right Fred. here is where I train:

[Guest]

Jack Sommers is a great Uechi Ryu teacher. We where honored to have him visit "The Garage" one Saturday morning:



More at http://tinyurl.com/8ozck