Uechi forms clearly contain *mainly* non-reverse movement, while some drills contain multiple reverse <straight back> movement, sometimes called backpedaling.
In your estimation what Percentage of Uechi "drill training" should emphasize backpedaling?
Backpedal Defense in Uechi
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
Backpedal Defense in Uechi
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
How one best trains should always be an issue…
But that's the whole point.. If you are backpedaling <multiple inline back steps> you are not Attacking the Attack, and hence not training students to Attack and learning how overcome their fear. They must learn to take control, but you can't do that if you are training backpedaling. You can train one or the other, but not both unless you are talking about a singular specialized kind of Draw move, which represents a tiny part of the whole Attack picture.
In the end Attack and defense must merge into one.. The true study is in breaking the "Attack" down and studying all its nuances depending on your system's strategies. But to train attack you must train to attack the attack, which comes in many flavors. Later you must train how to deal with his RESISTANCE to Attack, but you must Attack to train Attack!
In the end Attack and defense must merge into one.. The true study is in breaking the "Attack" down and studying all its nuances depending on your system's strategies. But to train attack you must train to attack the attack, which comes in many flavors. Later you must train how to deal with his RESISTANCE to Attack, but you must Attack to train Attack!
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
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Guest
Do you beat your wife:
A: Seldom?
B: Frequently?
C: Always?
"Polls" have to ask an easily-quantifiable question. This one is not easily quantifiable to me, so I couldn't give meaningful answer.
Percentages?
To whom?
At what skill level?
I don't know any of these answers, and they could be different at many skill levels and in many different circumstances.
Also the phrase "emphasize backpedaling" seems like a purposeful pejorative to me, setting up any who reply positively to be an idiot.
I can't imagine anyone walking into such a semantic landmine, so your poll registration will probably be zero.
After all the incredible insights you've given us I can't believe you've posted such a poll except that maybe you're frustrated at the defenses of moving back and are using a "poll' to prove your point: which may in fact be a good and valid one.
I know NOTHING about Wing Chun except what you've told us here by example Jim, but it sounds like an exceptional martial art.
Your grasp of it is clearly thorough, and your explanations are lucid and well thought-out.
I also know nothing about your exposure to the MANY variations of Uechi, only SOME of which are represented here on the forums.
However, vigorously dismissing a principle which seems to be in common usage as a tactic or technique seems to imply that Wing Chun, and therefore you, is/are superior to all forms that use any rearward motion, for any purpose.
Summarizing all these subtleties under the term "backpedaling" and then launching a poll to collect "votes" might be over-simplifying the question.
Do you agree with any of this?
A: Sometimes:
B: Frequently:
C:Always.
See my point?
NM
A: Seldom?
B: Frequently?
C: Always?
"Polls" have to ask an easily-quantifiable question. This one is not easily quantifiable to me, so I couldn't give meaningful answer.
Percentages?
To whom?
At what skill level?
I don't know any of these answers, and they could be different at many skill levels and in many different circumstances.
Also the phrase "emphasize backpedaling" seems like a purposeful pejorative to me, setting up any who reply positively to be an idiot.
I can't imagine anyone walking into such a semantic landmine, so your poll registration will probably be zero.
After all the incredible insights you've given us I can't believe you've posted such a poll except that maybe you're frustrated at the defenses of moving back and are using a "poll' to prove your point: which may in fact be a good and valid one.
I know NOTHING about Wing Chun except what you've told us here by example Jim, but it sounds like an exceptional martial art.
Your grasp of it is clearly thorough, and your explanations are lucid and well thought-out.
I also know nothing about your exposure to the MANY variations of Uechi, only SOME of which are represented here on the forums.
However, vigorously dismissing a principle which seems to be in common usage as a tactic or technique seems to imply that Wing Chun, and therefore you, is/are superior to all forms that use any rearward motion, for any purpose.
Summarizing all these subtleties under the term "backpedaling" and then launching a poll to collect "votes" might be over-simplifying the question.
Do you agree with any of this?
A: Sometimes:
B: Frequently:
C:Always.
See my point?
NM
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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Rick Wilson
I think Jim is trying to get a read on the feelings about backing up out there in Uechi land.
I seem to have upset a lot of people by disagreeing with it and so has Jim.
We cannot seem to have a discussion without pushing everyone’s buttons.
Maybe we are just not approaching it in a manner that won’t upset people – I don’t know.
If we can’t disagree on discussion forums then it is going to get really boring around here.
I seem to have upset a lot of people by disagreeing with it and so has Jim.
We cannot seem to have a discussion without pushing everyone’s buttons.
Maybe we are just not approaching it in a manner that won’t upset people – I don’t know.
If we can’t disagree on discussion forums then it is going to get really boring around here.
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
Sorry you didn't like the poll Neil..
Maybe I'm just not good at writing polls.. Still, I do not see the style superiority implication you “got” from the post. Rick and I for example are on the exact same page here in terms of training strategy and beliefs <correct me if I'm wrong Rick> and last time I checked Rick was not a WCK exponent..
Maybe I'm just not good at writing polls.. Still, I do not see the style superiority implication you “got” from the post. Rick and I for example are on the exact same page here in terms of training strategy and beliefs <correct me if I'm wrong Rick> and last time I checked Rick was not a WCK exponent..
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
Hey Jim...
It's not that I didn't "like" the poll, I just thought it was presented in such a way to make anyone who responded with a "yes" to seem like an idiot because of the phrasing of the question, and the use of the term "backpedaling" which would be taken as a pejorative by most readers.
Also, assigning percentages to things takes a lot of analytical thought, or at best, a bad guess.
Most folks who "just train" probably don't do much analysis along these lines.
NM
It's not that I didn't "like" the poll, I just thought it was presented in such a way to make anyone who responded with a "yes" to seem like an idiot because of the phrasing of the question, and the use of the term "backpedaling" which would be taken as a pejorative by most readers.
Also, assigning percentages to things takes a lot of analytical thought, or at best, a bad guess.
Most folks who "just train" probably don't do much analysis along these lines.
NM
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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JimHawkins
- Posts: 2101
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:21 am
- Location: NYC
The use of the term was not initiated by me in recent discussions. However the term IMO was used correctly w.r.t. multiple passive and contiguous reverse linier movements..2Green wrote: It's not that I didn't "like" the poll, I just thought it was presented in such a way to make anyone who responded with a "yes" to seem like an idiot because of the phrasing of the question, and the use of the term "backpedaling" which would be taken as a pejorative by most readers.
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit
I dig it Jim...
But look:
"What percent of Uechi drilling should train backpedaling?"
What are most Uechi trainers going to think, looking at that question?
********************************************
Poll questions have to be simple and focused, and not require VALUE JUDJMENTS on the part of responders, in order to participate.
(No, I'm not making poll-posting rules here!)
Examples might be:
"how many of you punch with a closed fist"?
"how many will kick first in a sparing match?
"do you worry about blood on the equipment?"
These can be answered simply, definitively, and MEANINGFULLY.
My point is, your "poll" askes a question that really requires literary response, and it phrases the question in such a way to dissuade any "positive" reponses, lest the responder be characterized as a simpleton:
"YEAH!!! BACKPEDAL 27% ALL THE TIME!!!"
See what I mean?
NM
But look:
"What percent of Uechi drilling should train backpedaling?"
What are most Uechi trainers going to think, looking at that question?
********************************************
Poll questions have to be simple and focused, and not require VALUE JUDJMENTS on the part of responders, in order to participate.
(No, I'm not making poll-posting rules here!)
Examples might be:
"how many of you punch with a closed fist"?
"how many will kick first in a sparing match?
"do you worry about blood on the equipment?"
These can be answered simply, definitively, and MEANINGFULLY.
My point is, your "poll" askes a question that really requires literary response, and it phrases the question in such a way to dissuade any "positive" reponses, lest the responder be characterized as a simpleton:
"YEAH!!! BACKPEDAL 27% ALL THE TIME!!!"
See what I mean?
NM
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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fivedragons
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Just for fun: 
Backpedaling? What does that even mean? I don't get it. If you think that the sum total of skill in self defense, fighting, what-have-you, is in the forward motion of the feet, you're seriously deluded. Don't trust me on this, just ask anyone who understands the concepts of judo, aikido, wrestling, boxing, Uechi, tai chi, bagua, Jujutsu, TSD, TKD etc. etc. etc.... Oh yeah, some of these arts probably aren't "valid" if you like to indulge in personal fantasies of self defense that unfailingly place you in the superior position of dominance. It's like saying that all you have to do to master karate is to be bigger and stronger than everyone else in the world. "just kick their ass" So why learn anything at all, other than "keep walking forward, and you will become master of the universe, Daniel-San." I never learned anything called "backpedaling".
It's like the yang without yin.
The tiger without the dragon.
Just for fun, and not disrespecting anyone's point of view. Just my own opinion as a heretic.
Who was the guy in that weird movie who could "talk to the animals?" (seriously, I can't remember the name of the children's movie about the dude who talks to animals. Used to be on TV in the seventies, it's driving me crazy. There where all these made up animals like a giant snail that you could walk into his shell.) Oh yeah "Doctor Doolittle"
I remember one animal called the "push-me-pull-you"
Backpedaling? What does that even mean? I don't get it. If you think that the sum total of skill in self defense, fighting, what-have-you, is in the forward motion of the feet, you're seriously deluded. Don't trust me on this, just ask anyone who understands the concepts of judo, aikido, wrestling, boxing, Uechi, tai chi, bagua, Jujutsu, TSD, TKD etc. etc. etc.... Oh yeah, some of these arts probably aren't "valid" if you like to indulge in personal fantasies of self defense that unfailingly place you in the superior position of dominance. It's like saying that all you have to do to master karate is to be bigger and stronger than everyone else in the world. "just kick their ass" So why learn anything at all, other than "keep walking forward, and you will become master of the universe, Daniel-San." I never learned anything called "backpedaling".
It's like the yang without yin.
The tiger without the dragon.
Just for fun, and not disrespecting anyone's point of view. Just my own opinion as a heretic.
Who was the guy in that weird movie who could "talk to the animals?" (seriously, I can't remember the name of the children's movie about the dude who talks to animals. Used to be on TV in the seventies, it's driving me crazy. There where all these made up animals like a giant snail that you could walk into his shell.) Oh yeah "Doctor Doolittle"
I remember one animal called the "push-me-pull-you"
