More from Protecting the Gift
One in three girls and one in six boys will have sexual contact with an adult.
A family member is most likely to be the sexual abuser.
In about 20% of the cases, the abuser is an adolescent.
Acording to a study by the National Institute of Mental Health, the average molester of girls will have about fifty victims before being caught and convicted; the average molester of boys will have an astonishing 150 victims before being caught and convicted. Most have many more victims even after being caught - some as many as 300 children during their "careers"
In addition to molestation, children are victims of rape - the Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that fully 15 percent of rape victims are younger than twelve.
Now here's the kicker:
Nearly 100 percent of the offenders in these crimes are heterosexual males.
These risks are far far greater than those of your child being abducted by a stranger.
We need to consider this when taking safety measures to protect our children - and especially when teaching them about safety.
This isn't just a statistic to me. A few months ago some of you may remember my outrage when I found out that an adolescent male in my own community was arrested on various sexual crime charges - (from exposure to rape) and striking very close to my family - he is the brother of one of my children's closest friends.
To all appearances - he SEEMED like a nice kid. Good student, star athlete, good looks, professional family, strict discipline, community service etc. etc.
We had met him many times - and I am VERY glad that I heeded my "inner signals" and severely restricted my child's time in that house (only when parents home - no overnights - etc.) If I had taken a looser attitude and let her stay over night - or visit whenever she wanted without checking parental supervision etc. ... I don't even want to THINK about the consequences.
But we must. That is the only way to avoid them. And we must have dialog with our children.
Communicate!
Update on the scumbag: he's out of jail - (father's a lawyer) case has not gone to trial yet, no probation or other restrictions that I'm aware of - (he's roaming the streets) and the community outrage has been absent from the local papers... I suppose there are more interesting stories out there now.
Peace,
Lori
A greater danger than a stranger
Moderator: Available
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Allen M.
A greater danger than a stranger
If those numbers are accurate, Lori, we live in a really twisted society.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
A greater danger than a stranger
Allen-san:
Those stas are straight out of DeBecker's new book...
And yes - we do live in a twisted society - the richest, most technologically advanced, one of the best educated/literacy rates, some of the best women's rights, etc. etc.
But we are the most violent.
So what can we do about it? I like the phrase "think globally - act locally"
Sure - we can lament - "but we can't change the world - or influence the kids our kids spend time with - they learn that crap from them etc. etc."
But we CAN turn off the television - limit the yellow journalistic news entrance into our homes - refuse to buy/support video games - especially violent ones - cut out the cable tv - (in favor of arials if you can't face no tv at all - and VCR's for selected videos) and those are only three suggestions - but I bet that you can't name 3 parents you know who exercise any of those options. And they probably don't even realize how much violence runs unchecked into their homes and their children's daily lives. Will elimination of tv cure violence? No way. But can it hurt to stop subjecting impressionable minds to repeated scenes of death and destruction and guns and killing as the solution to a problem? Children will naturally play "smash 'em up" type games (knocking down blocks - crashing toy cars) - but that is a lot different than "I'm going to tear your head off and kill you!" type games with the latest action figures - ask any pre-school teacher - she can identify which kids - toddlers actually - watch things like power rangers etc. from the degree of violent imagery in their play.
OK - I'm rambling now. Could be a case of the chicken and the egg - does our violence fascinated media spur our violent society, or vice versa?
Peace,
Lori
Those stas are straight out of DeBecker's new book...
And yes - we do live in a twisted society - the richest, most technologically advanced, one of the best educated/literacy rates, some of the best women's rights, etc. etc.
But we are the most violent.
So what can we do about it? I like the phrase "think globally - act locally"
Sure - we can lament - "but we can't change the world - or influence the kids our kids spend time with - they learn that crap from them etc. etc."
But we CAN turn off the television - limit the yellow journalistic news entrance into our homes - refuse to buy/support video games - especially violent ones - cut out the cable tv - (in favor of arials if you can't face no tv at all - and VCR's for selected videos) and those are only three suggestions - but I bet that you can't name 3 parents you know who exercise any of those options. And they probably don't even realize how much violence runs unchecked into their homes and their children's daily lives. Will elimination of tv cure violence? No way. But can it hurt to stop subjecting impressionable minds to repeated scenes of death and destruction and guns and killing as the solution to a problem? Children will naturally play "smash 'em up" type games (knocking down blocks - crashing toy cars) - but that is a lot different than "I'm going to tear your head off and kill you!" type games with the latest action figures - ask any pre-school teacher - she can identify which kids - toddlers actually - watch things like power rangers etc. from the degree of violent imagery in their play.
OK - I'm rambling now. Could be a case of the chicken and the egg - does our violence fascinated media spur our violent society, or vice versa?
Peace,
Lori
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
A greater danger than a stranger
Hi Lori. I for one believe that the problems mentioned have always been around but are only now being seriously addressed, studied, reported etc. Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Pol Pot's Cambodia, and on and on did not have cable, VCR's, video games but were all violent and sadistic societies. Mao Tse Tung reportedly had a fondness for young girls. J. Edgar Hoover was reported to be a cross dresser.
We do not have cable but that is more of an effort to prevent couch potato syndrome in our kids than anything else. I wanted my son to see 'Private Ryan' to understand what true violence really is and does, and what his grandparents lived through.
Do I want to sweep perversion under the rug and pretend it is not there? No, I want to be certain my kids know it is there so as to avoid it. 'The Gift of Fear' is required reading in this house. I'll look for the new book to add to that list.
Rich
We do not have cable but that is more of an effort to prevent couch potato syndrome in our kids than anything else. I wanted my son to see 'Private Ryan' to understand what true violence really is and does, and what his grandparents lived through.
Do I want to sweep perversion under the rug and pretend it is not there? No, I want to be certain my kids know it is there so as to avoid it. 'The Gift of Fear' is required reading in this house. I'll look for the new book to add to that list.
Rich
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Allen M.
A greater danger than a stranger
Well, Lori,
Another Great Depression or another major war could go a long way toward learning selflessnes, discipline, etc. I really don't see it coming out of the home or the public school system.
sounds kinda glum, huh?
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
Another Great Depression or another major war could go a long way toward learning selflessnes, discipline, etc. I really don't see it coming out of the home or the public school system.
sounds kinda glum, huh?
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
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Allen M.
A greater danger than a stranger
Hello Lori,
You state figures from a reputable source. I wonder if these figures are really even complete. Although these problems have existed since humans have inhereted the earth, I believe these problems are running rampant in epidemic proportions now primarily due to the breakup of the family, the media, and the way material things have filled our lives.
Our Great American Society is unique in all the world. It is like a seed that was planted, nourished, and produced beautiful flowers. Its time has passed, and the tall stong plants are withering and rapidly decaying on the vine. Fall has arrived and we are approaching the winter of our society.
To me, the only solution to the problems is to till, plant, and harvest again.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
You state figures from a reputable source. I wonder if these figures are really even complete. Although these problems have existed since humans have inhereted the earth, I believe these problems are running rampant in epidemic proportions now primarily due to the breakup of the family, the media, and the way material things have filled our lives.
Our Great American Society is unique in all the world. It is like a seed that was planted, nourished, and produced beautiful flowers. Its time has passed, and the tall stong plants are withering and rapidly decaying on the vine. Fall has arrived and we are approaching the winter of our society.
To me, the only solution to the problems is to till, plant, and harvest again.
------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
A greater danger than a stranger
Rich-san and Allen-san,
Good points! I also believe that violence is nothing new - and that man's inhumanity to man is evident in history since the dawn of recorded time... and most likely long before that as well. It is impossible to cover all facets of a topic in a single post - that is one of the nice things about these forums - each post develops a new facet adding dimension and substance to the topic of the thread - thank you for adding yours!
OK, so we accept that violence and depravity is nothing new. The information age is making the current situation more visible - which not only has it's good points - but also it's drawbacks. For example - we know that it is statistically safer to fly than to drive, yet the news reports the catastrophe of one plane crash in such gory detail - on every major network. Yet the people who die on a daily basis from drunk drivers, etc. make very little mention. Consequence - many of us are terrified to fly, but think nothing of driving down a major highway a couple times a day.
I also have my children see realistic movies when there is a lesson to be learned - once I feel they are old enough - which has to be an individual decision from each parent - who knows better than anyone what their child can take - factoring in maturity and emotional sensitivity. I only recently allowed my daughter to see Schindler's List, and took her to see Saving Private Ryan for most of the same reasons Rich outlines - I pulled her out of the theater however - I felt the bloodbath - although perhaps the most realistic ever as touted by the critics - was too much for her sensitivities as of yet. Hell, it was too much for mine. Not for one minute do I discount the horrors of the war etc. - but I do exercise my choice to watch it in such gruesome detail - to me the daily news is often just as gruesome.
Know that I am not advocating hiding from the violence - only choosing how much we allow into our children's lives. They only have one childhood - and while they need to be prepared for realities - why inundate them with the worst society has to offer on ridiculous news programs and violent video games?
It may appear that I'm slamming all video games and television - I am not. What I am advocating is that parents take a more active role in selecting what their children spend their time with - I've met too many parents who blindly allow their kids to spend hours unsupervised surfing the net, surfing the satellite channels, and are surprised that "their little darling" has been downloading pornography or in online chatrooms in the predawn hours of the morning!
Rich, I applaud your decision to acquaint your children with the aspects of violence - it cannot be escaped, and must be identified to be dealt with. Ignoring it won't make it go away. I believe you will appreciate the new DeBecker book - and, while there is some repetition from Gift of Fear he does approach everything from the point of view of protecting our children - it would make a great gift to a teacher or any other person who cares for children.
Allen, I keep drawing frightening correlations between the growth and richness and depravity of this society to the fall of Rome... I hope that we still have enough time to plant new seeds before we create a "Caligulesque" demise...
Thanks for your contributions!
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 06-05-99).]
Good points! I also believe that violence is nothing new - and that man's inhumanity to man is evident in history since the dawn of recorded time... and most likely long before that as well. It is impossible to cover all facets of a topic in a single post - that is one of the nice things about these forums - each post develops a new facet adding dimension and substance to the topic of the thread - thank you for adding yours!
OK, so we accept that violence and depravity is nothing new. The information age is making the current situation more visible - which not only has it's good points - but also it's drawbacks. For example - we know that it is statistically safer to fly than to drive, yet the news reports the catastrophe of one plane crash in such gory detail - on every major network. Yet the people who die on a daily basis from drunk drivers, etc. make very little mention. Consequence - many of us are terrified to fly, but think nothing of driving down a major highway a couple times a day.
I also have my children see realistic movies when there is a lesson to be learned - once I feel they are old enough - which has to be an individual decision from each parent - who knows better than anyone what their child can take - factoring in maturity and emotional sensitivity. I only recently allowed my daughter to see Schindler's List, and took her to see Saving Private Ryan for most of the same reasons Rich outlines - I pulled her out of the theater however - I felt the bloodbath - although perhaps the most realistic ever as touted by the critics - was too much for her sensitivities as of yet. Hell, it was too much for mine. Not for one minute do I discount the horrors of the war etc. - but I do exercise my choice to watch it in such gruesome detail - to me the daily news is often just as gruesome.
Know that I am not advocating hiding from the violence - only choosing how much we allow into our children's lives. They only have one childhood - and while they need to be prepared for realities - why inundate them with the worst society has to offer on ridiculous news programs and violent video games?
It may appear that I'm slamming all video games and television - I am not. What I am advocating is that parents take a more active role in selecting what their children spend their time with - I've met too many parents who blindly allow their kids to spend hours unsupervised surfing the net, surfing the satellite channels, and are surprised that "their little darling" has been downloading pornography or in online chatrooms in the predawn hours of the morning!
Rich, I applaud your decision to acquaint your children with the aspects of violence - it cannot be escaped, and must be identified to be dealt with. Ignoring it won't make it go away. I believe you will appreciate the new DeBecker book - and, while there is some repetition from Gift of Fear he does approach everything from the point of view of protecting our children - it would make a great gift to a teacher or any other person who cares for children.
Allen, I keep drawing frightening correlations between the growth and richness and depravity of this society to the fall of Rome... I hope that we still have enough time to plant new seeds before we create a "Caligulesque" demise...
Thanks for your contributions!
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 06-05-99).]
A greater danger than a stranger
Lori:
One question:
What were the inner signals that you felt? Mind you I am not DOUBTING you obviously, but I wonder what was it that YOU saw that no one else either was willing to see or could see. The reason I ask is that judging from the way you say he looked from the outside world's prospective, I would have been fooled myself!!!!
Or is it one of those "I can't put my finger on it" type of deals. I've had those myself, and 100% I have been right on the money.
I am glad you brought this thread up. Too many times we look for dangers "over there" or happening to "those people" who we feel are not like us instead of dealing with the situations that can literally be right in our own back yard!!!!
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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net
One question:
What were the inner signals that you felt? Mind you I am not DOUBTING you obviously, but I wonder what was it that YOU saw that no one else either was willing to see or could see. The reason I ask is that judging from the way you say he looked from the outside world's prospective, I would have been fooled myself!!!!
Or is it one of those "I can't put my finger on it" type of deals. I've had those myself, and 100% I have been right on the money.
I am glad you brought this thread up. Too many times we look for dangers "over there" or happening to "those people" who we feel are not like us instead of dealing with the situations that can literally be right in our own back yard!!!!
------------------
Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net
A greater danger than a stranger
Thanks for all the participation!
Tony-san,
Don't they though!
Allen-san,
I hope it doesn't come to that! There is hope for the family - call me a cockeyed optmist - but in the face of all the challenges - a secure and loving home environment is still about the most important weapon kids have... in the absence of that - well, I'm at a loss - but we still have a voice (albeit a small one) in the schools - if we are loud enough the squeaky wheel may get some grease.
Cecil-san,
Good question! I've tried to analyze that myself - basically it was a general feeling of unease - he was too sure of himself - too charming - too polite in front of adults. (If you are around teenagers much this can seem a bit out of character) - another big clue was during telephone discussions between my daughter and her girlfriend, this guy (the girlfriend's brother) would interrupt the phone conversation with comments that had sexual overtones - never direct - but enough to make the girls giggle and blush - I found that highly inappropriate from a 16 year old talking to 12 year olds - shouldn't he have been more interested in girls closer to his own age? A few years makes a major difference at this point in the game.
Some of the indicators I identified out of DeBecker's book when describing imperfect strangers are these:
- glib and superficial
- egocentric and grandiose
- lacking remorse or guilt
- deceitful and manipulative
- impulsive
- emotionally shallow
- in need of excitement
- lacking responsiblity
These things weren't glaringly obvious at first - just nagging feelings - (this kid is TOO perfect) note - he is a very good looking kid - incredibly polite and charming around adults - very good grades (scholarship material) - varsity athlete - etc. etc. - his parents seem to be (to the community anyway) incredibly strict - yet - there were all these little things that didn't ring true - a story about a former girlfriend had overtones about her getting pregnant and trying to force a marriage, then all the sudden there was a "false accusation" of statutory rape (which was summarily dismissed) and all kinds of sympathy about how this ppor guy was being dragged through the mud by this one deranged girl, then lo and behold there was ANOTHER girl who accused him of rape - and this was also summarily dismissed. This was all family "dirty laundry" that made it out in private discussions by the girls - all it took was for me to hear that the guy was accused once and I wouldn't let my daughter over at that house - but I didn't curtail the frindship with her friend. (She was welcome at MY house) This came out in bits and pieces in the year prior to the whole blow up where more than a dozen girls accused him of sexual misconduct. But from the very first I didn't trust him - more from intuition that was validated the more I got to know the family. Again, the initial appearances were very very deceptive.
Protecting the Gift offers some excellent guidelines for parents making decisions about their children's activities - regarding overnights etc. - I recommend it highly.
John-san:
Scary story about your child's school. I've done the same thing - at public and private schools. And for all their fuss about "you must show positive proof of ID to remove your child" it is a bunch of "hooey" to be polite. I've wandered all kinds of hallways with no challenges whatsoever - to drop off a forgotten lunch or whathaveyou - and have been passed by school officials and teachers with no questions asked - (ok - some knew me - but others didn't) Again, (I should get a commission here) Protecting the Gift has some really good suggetions for parents on how to make schools start paying attention. I appreciate your idea of trying to get martial arts as part of the curriculum, and again, the budget excuse will be a regular - maybe some volunteer programs could spark some interest. How to get some of that federal funding that TaeKwondo has nailed down? (Mentioned by GEM and Gary Khoury Senseis as discussed in Bermuda.)
It IS up to us to pay more attention to what our kids are involved in - it is hard with busy lives - but that old ounce of prevention...
I DO agree that it is preferable for us to police ourselves vs. more federal legislation... in the name of "protect the kids"...
About the strongest message we can send right now - is for parents to open their eyes and ears even MORE - get a little tougher - it won't be easy if the kids are too used to free reign - but how bad is it to want to actually MEET the kids your kids are hanging out with? Why shouldn't all parents actually MEET the parents where their kids are going to spend the night? It's to easy, in a busy world like this - to ask a few questions about the family before allowing the kids to go - to assuage our conscience, and then let them go. I've been tempted myself. I am very glad I've stuck to my guns - as these type of stories come to light, my daughter now recogizes that my insistence on meeting her friends and their parents before she could go - is actually a safety measure that may have kept her out of a very nasty situation. (But that doesn't mean I don't get arguments still!)
Same goes for letting kids on the internet.
And many other things! Too many to go into on one post!
Peace,
Lori
Tony-san,
Don't they though!
Allen-san,
I hope it doesn't come to that! There is hope for the family - call me a cockeyed optmist - but in the face of all the challenges - a secure and loving home environment is still about the most important weapon kids have... in the absence of that - well, I'm at a loss - but we still have a voice (albeit a small one) in the schools - if we are loud enough the squeaky wheel may get some grease.
Cecil-san,
Good question! I've tried to analyze that myself - basically it was a general feeling of unease - he was too sure of himself - too charming - too polite in front of adults. (If you are around teenagers much this can seem a bit out of character) - another big clue was during telephone discussions between my daughter and her girlfriend, this guy (the girlfriend's brother) would interrupt the phone conversation with comments that had sexual overtones - never direct - but enough to make the girls giggle and blush - I found that highly inappropriate from a 16 year old talking to 12 year olds - shouldn't he have been more interested in girls closer to his own age? A few years makes a major difference at this point in the game.
Some of the indicators I identified out of DeBecker's book when describing imperfect strangers are these:
- glib and superficial
- egocentric and grandiose
- lacking remorse or guilt
- deceitful and manipulative
- impulsive
- emotionally shallow
- in need of excitement
- lacking responsiblity
These things weren't glaringly obvious at first - just nagging feelings - (this kid is TOO perfect) note - he is a very good looking kid - incredibly polite and charming around adults - very good grades (scholarship material) - varsity athlete - etc. etc. - his parents seem to be (to the community anyway) incredibly strict - yet - there were all these little things that didn't ring true - a story about a former girlfriend had overtones about her getting pregnant and trying to force a marriage, then all the sudden there was a "false accusation" of statutory rape (which was summarily dismissed) and all kinds of sympathy about how this ppor guy was being dragged through the mud by this one deranged girl, then lo and behold there was ANOTHER girl who accused him of rape - and this was also summarily dismissed. This was all family "dirty laundry" that made it out in private discussions by the girls - all it took was for me to hear that the guy was accused once and I wouldn't let my daughter over at that house - but I didn't curtail the frindship with her friend. (She was welcome at MY house) This came out in bits and pieces in the year prior to the whole blow up where more than a dozen girls accused him of sexual misconduct. But from the very first I didn't trust him - more from intuition that was validated the more I got to know the family. Again, the initial appearances were very very deceptive.
Protecting the Gift offers some excellent guidelines for parents making decisions about their children's activities - regarding overnights etc. - I recommend it highly.
John-san:
Scary story about your child's school. I've done the same thing - at public and private schools. And for all their fuss about "you must show positive proof of ID to remove your child" it is a bunch of "hooey" to be polite. I've wandered all kinds of hallways with no challenges whatsoever - to drop off a forgotten lunch or whathaveyou - and have been passed by school officials and teachers with no questions asked - (ok - some knew me - but others didn't) Again, (I should get a commission here) Protecting the Gift has some really good suggetions for parents on how to make schools start paying attention. I appreciate your idea of trying to get martial arts as part of the curriculum, and again, the budget excuse will be a regular - maybe some volunteer programs could spark some interest. How to get some of that federal funding that TaeKwondo has nailed down? (Mentioned by GEM and Gary Khoury Senseis as discussed in Bermuda.)
It IS up to us to pay more attention to what our kids are involved in - it is hard with busy lives - but that old ounce of prevention...
I DO agree that it is preferable for us to police ourselves vs. more federal legislation... in the name of "protect the kids"...
About the strongest message we can send right now - is for parents to open their eyes and ears even MORE - get a little tougher - it won't be easy if the kids are too used to free reign - but how bad is it to want to actually MEET the kids your kids are hanging out with? Why shouldn't all parents actually MEET the parents where their kids are going to spend the night? It's to easy, in a busy world like this - to ask a few questions about the family before allowing the kids to go - to assuage our conscience, and then let them go. I've been tempted myself. I am very glad I've stuck to my guns - as these type of stories come to light, my daughter now recogizes that my insistence on meeting her friends and their parents before she could go - is actually a safety measure that may have kept her out of a very nasty situation. (But that doesn't mean I don't get arguments still!)
Same goes for letting kids on the internet.
And many other things! Too many to go into on one post!
Peace,
Lori
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JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A greater danger than a stranger
Lori San:
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Is there something we can do as a group that will help.
Anthony:
By our own eyes Rome was 'Degenerate" from the start. The Paterfamilias was law, and could cause his own children to be killed if they did not follow his orders. It did happen.
They were always Polytheistic, in the beginning.
Yet this Republic turned Empire created a "Pax Romana" without modern Communications which lasted four hundred years. The "stump" of the Empire in the East tottered on until the 15th Century, dying in slices.
Until the Ottoman's, only the fellow Christians of the 4th Crusade ever sacked the City.
Being properly Christian and probably not degenerate did not save the last Imperials
from the Turks, with no money to pay mercenaries and no desire to fight on the walls themselves, they took refuge in the Sancta Sophia, prayed, and died.
Degeneracy is a tricky word.
I personally feel, and this will sound unsavory, that a state can maintain many degenerate and disgusting and even Barbarous practices, but if enough of it's people will fight for it, or if it is rich enough to hire professionals, it may blunder on for a bit.
So-were do we sit-somewhere scooting towards a professional army. As you said, not a good sign, but different.
JOHN
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Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Is there something we can do as a group that will help.
Anthony:
By our own eyes Rome was 'Degenerate" from the start. The Paterfamilias was law, and could cause his own children to be killed if they did not follow his orders. It did happen.
They were always Polytheistic, in the beginning.
Yet this Republic turned Empire created a "Pax Romana" without modern Communications which lasted four hundred years. The "stump" of the Empire in the East tottered on until the 15th Century, dying in slices.
Until the Ottoman's, only the fellow Christians of the 4th Crusade ever sacked the City.
Being properly Christian and probably not degenerate did not save the last Imperials
from the Turks, with no money to pay mercenaries and no desire to fight on the walls themselves, they took refuge in the Sancta Sophia, prayed, and died.
Degeneracy is a tricky word.
I personally feel, and this will sound unsavory, that a state can maintain many degenerate and disgusting and even Barbarous practices, but if enough of it's people will fight for it, or if it is rich enough to hire professionals, it may blunder on for a bit.
So-were do we sit-somewhere scooting towards a professional army. As you said, not a good sign, but different.
JOHN
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-
Allen M.
A greater danger than a stranger
Anthony and Lori,
In some societies, if a person steals, they cut off his hand...
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
In some societies, if a person steals, they cut off his hand...
------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
A greater danger than a stranger
John-san:
Thank you for your educational post! You and your forum never cease to amaze me with the depth of coverage in the subject at hand - I learn something new on your forum on a daily basis - thank you for sharing your expertise here...
I believed that the Roman Empire began it's demise or deterioration before Constantine - but I suppose it could be how one defines deterioration - the correlation I make to our own society is that at the apparent height of power and richness - leaders seem to have a much lower moral standard - society seems to hunger for gorier more sensational entertainments - general respect for humanity seems to be at an all time low - these were the aspects I was referring to as being similar...
Al-san:
And let the punishment fit the crime - the only problem I have with more extreme punishments is the likelihood of punishing the innocent - there have been numerous cases of innocent people being sentenced to death - only to be released many years later when DNA testing or some other evidence proves their innocence.
From an interesting website: www.theelectricchair.com/deathpen.htm
A black man who kills a white person is 11 times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white man who kills a black person. And blacks who kill blacks have even less to worry about. "It's almost like we kind of say, "Oh, well, he needed killing anyhow." (Source: Don Cabana)
Between 1973 and 1993, at least 48 people on death row were released after they were found to be innocent, according to a Congressional subcommittee on civil and constitutional rights.
In Texas in 1991, blacks made up 12 percent of the population, but 48 percent of the prison population and 55.5 percent of those on death row are black (NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund).
In some of those societies you mention where a hand is cut off for stealing - women are also considered "property" and all it takes is an accusation of adultery for her to be stoned to death - no judge - no jury - no conviction.
We need severe penalties - yes - but we also need swift and sure justice - something stinks when white collar criminals get 20 years without parole and child molesters are out in 24 hours with a slap on the wrist... is this because the administers of the justice are more hurt by white collar crime than by child molesters? What would be the penalty if a legislator or judge's child was a victim?
More food for thought.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 06-06-99).]
Thank you for your educational post! You and your forum never cease to amaze me with the depth of coverage in the subject at hand - I learn something new on your forum on a daily basis - thank you for sharing your expertise here...
I believed that the Roman Empire began it's demise or deterioration before Constantine - but I suppose it could be how one defines deterioration - the correlation I make to our own society is that at the apparent height of power and richness - leaders seem to have a much lower moral standard - society seems to hunger for gorier more sensational entertainments - general respect for humanity seems to be at an all time low - these were the aspects I was referring to as being similar...
Al-san:
And let the punishment fit the crime - the only problem I have with more extreme punishments is the likelihood of punishing the innocent - there have been numerous cases of innocent people being sentenced to death - only to be released many years later when DNA testing or some other evidence proves their innocence.
From an interesting website: www.theelectricchair.com/deathpen.htm
A black man who kills a white person is 11 times more likely to receive the death penalty than a white man who kills a black person. And blacks who kill blacks have even less to worry about. "It's almost like we kind of say, "Oh, well, he needed killing anyhow." (Source: Don Cabana)
Between 1973 and 1993, at least 48 people on death row were released after they were found to be innocent, according to a Congressional subcommittee on civil and constitutional rights.
In Texas in 1991, blacks made up 12 percent of the population, but 48 percent of the prison population and 55.5 percent of those on death row are black (NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund).
In some of those societies you mention where a hand is cut off for stealing - women are also considered "property" and all it takes is an accusation of adultery for her to be stoned to death - no judge - no jury - no conviction.
We need severe penalties - yes - but we also need swift and sure justice - something stinks when white collar criminals get 20 years without parole and child molesters are out in 24 hours with a slap on the wrist... is this because the administers of the justice are more hurt by white collar crime than by child molesters? What would be the penalty if a legislator or judge's child was a victim?
More food for thought.
Peace,
Lori
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 06-06-99).]
A greater danger than a stranger
Tony-san:
Just caught your post - and again we agree (watch out world!
)
Thanks for contributing!
Just caught your post - and again we agree (watch out world!
)Thanks for contributing!
-
JOHN THURSTON
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
- Contact:
A greater danger than a stranger
Lori, Rich Allen:
This discussion about violence is a conundrum to be sure.
Keeping track of your kids is a good idea.
However, allowing them freedom and giving them the "combination to the safe" is something that will happen, whether we like it or not.
The Depression was a great trainer, but it left 33% of out work force on the street or in the "Dust Bowl" or tent cities near Hoover dam waiting for work.
Discipline, how about trying to get more martial arts on the curriculum of more schools? The response I have gotten thus far is "we've already budgeted for that will you do it for nothing?" -"we're staying away from those (the arts) as they are violent in the wake of the recent school tragedies"-and so on.
Allen San: The cycle theory of history is not new, but always requires watching. Read the "Cyclic Theory of Chinese History". Good luck trying to find it.
It's easy to say to people "those who don't know history are condemened to repeat it" they'll nod and say "good" and go back to business as usual.
But people, as Lori says, have to police themselves. I don't really want the internet or cable censored-except by you and me and Lori.
We want all the things that discipline in our kids will produce, so someone screwed up when they canned the dress codes in the 60's.
Now the cycle must swing back.
I walked into my daughter's school, unnanounced, not checked, watched frisked or 'nuthin. Nobody even looked up. I could have been Jack (or John) the Ripper. I asked the principal about "school security" and his response was "we're waiting to see what the other schools are going to do".
Now THAT scared me.
Not much help am I?
Best.
JOHN
------------------
This discussion about violence is a conundrum to be sure.
Keeping track of your kids is a good idea.
However, allowing them freedom and giving them the "combination to the safe" is something that will happen, whether we like it or not.
The Depression was a great trainer, but it left 33% of out work force on the street or in the "Dust Bowl" or tent cities near Hoover dam waiting for work.
Discipline, how about trying to get more martial arts on the curriculum of more schools? The response I have gotten thus far is "we've already budgeted for that will you do it for nothing?" -"we're staying away from those (the arts) as they are violent in the wake of the recent school tragedies"-and so on.
Allen San: The cycle theory of history is not new, but always requires watching. Read the "Cyclic Theory of Chinese History". Good luck trying to find it.
It's easy to say to people "those who don't know history are condemened to repeat it" they'll nod and say "good" and go back to business as usual.
But people, as Lori says, have to police themselves. I don't really want the internet or cable censored-except by you and me and Lori.
We want all the things that discipline in our kids will produce, so someone screwed up when they canned the dress codes in the 60's.
Now the cycle must swing back.
I walked into my daughter's school, unnanounced, not checked, watched frisked or 'nuthin. Nobody even looked up. I could have been Jack (or John) the Ripper. I asked the principal about "school security" and his response was "we're waiting to see what the other schools are going to do".
Now THAT scared me.
Not much help am I?
Best.
JOHN
------------------
-
Allen M.
A greater danger than a stranger
So, Anthony, What did YOU loose?
Lori,
Maybe the ONLY solution is to plant new seeds, meaning the answer can only be found in the family. Children need to learn virtues from their parents, but how can they if their parents have none? How 'bout replacing sex education in the schools with people and mate education? Or outlawing divorce and requiring those who rear children to do it properly? ...and on and on...
We could remain here all day and unearth solutions to all these problems, but the best you can do as a parent, Lori, is take care of your own and help others like you do and surf the crest if it ever happens. There can never be a solution in this 'wonderful' liberal society of ours.
What did England do with criminals in the 1600s? They sent to Australia and the New World. How about Fencing-off North Dakota or shooting them to Mars?
------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
Lori,
Maybe the ONLY solution is to plant new seeds, meaning the answer can only be found in the family. Children need to learn virtues from their parents, but how can they if their parents have none? How 'bout replacing sex education in the schools with people and mate education? Or outlawing divorce and requiring those who rear children to do it properly? ...and on and on...
We could remain here all day and unearth solutions to all these problems, but the best you can do as a parent, Lori, is take care of your own and help others like you do and surf the crest if it ever happens. There can never be a solution in this 'wonderful' liberal society of ours.
What did England do with criminals in the 1600s? They sent to Australia and the New World. How about Fencing-off North Dakota or shooting them to Mars?
------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]
