I'm planning a two-three week hiking expedition covering around 150-200 miles, and I'd be packing all the food I'd need. I'm wondering what the recommended balance of protein, fat and carbs is these days for extended activity. I've read various things that say anything from 50/35/15 (% calories from carbs/fat/protein) to 40/30/30. I'm looking more for information in terms of discrete nutritional components than food item suggestions.
And to make it relevant to karate, how do the dietary needs differ between a rigorous martial training regime, a "normal" activity level diet, and what I'm talking about?
Thanks in advance to anyone offering advice.
Nutrition for extended athletic output
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Hi, Justin!
Many athletes do fine in spite of rather than because of diet. An interesting read is Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose. In it, he takes a group of men from coast to coast, carrying equipment and supplies along the way while living off the land. Diet goes from traditional of the time to Atkins to vegetarian. The men make it, but suffer various symptoms along the way.
My personal philosophy is a modified Zone diet, which is the 40/30/30 principle. A modified Atkins also works, which cuts carbs way down and elects only to consume the low glycemic index carbs. Also check out the South Beach diet, which comes close.
Choose a mix of fast and slow releasing proteins (whey vs. casein, as an example). If you want meats, choose low fat meats (skinned chicken breast as an example). Consume only nonfat dairy products. Stay away from preserved meats with high sodium and preservative content. Fish is good; just don't cook it to death. Sashimi is best; frying in oil/butter/grease is worst.
Choose healthy fats (those from nuts, raw or lightly cooked fish, olive oils, canonal, and a very little bit of vegetable oil). Avoid trans fats and saturated fats if you value your long term health.
Choose carbohydrates with a low glycemic index. This means more fruits and lightly cooked vegetables and a little bit of whole grain. It means avoiding sugar (brown or white), white bread, white pasta, cooked potaties, overcooked vegetables, etc.
Then get a multivitamin and multimineral supplement(s) that includes all the vitamins, minerals, and a good dose of phytonutrients. These can help with the healing process and minimize inflammation.
A trail mix of various nuts, seeds, raisins and such is good for snacking. Throw in a few M&Ms if you must, but you don't need it. Beware of preserved fruits with sulphites and added sugar. A good variety of various colored fruits w/o sugar or preservatives - dried or fresh - is best for snacking.
And finally...drink lots of fluids, and avoid too much caffeine and salt. Bubbly water with a dash of orange, lemon, or lime is a great treat.
- Bill
Many athletes do fine in spite of rather than because of diet. An interesting read is Undaunted Courage by Stephen Ambrose. In it, he takes a group of men from coast to coast, carrying equipment and supplies along the way while living off the land. Diet goes from traditional of the time to Atkins to vegetarian. The men make it, but suffer various symptoms along the way.
My personal philosophy is a modified Zone diet, which is the 40/30/30 principle. A modified Atkins also works, which cuts carbs way down and elects only to consume the low glycemic index carbs. Also check out the South Beach diet, which comes close.
Choose a mix of fast and slow releasing proteins (whey vs. casein, as an example). If you want meats, choose low fat meats (skinned chicken breast as an example). Consume only nonfat dairy products. Stay away from preserved meats with high sodium and preservative content. Fish is good; just don't cook it to death. Sashimi is best; frying in oil/butter/grease is worst.
Choose healthy fats (those from nuts, raw or lightly cooked fish, olive oils, canonal, and a very little bit of vegetable oil). Avoid trans fats and saturated fats if you value your long term health.
Choose carbohydrates with a low glycemic index. This means more fruits and lightly cooked vegetables and a little bit of whole grain. It means avoiding sugar (brown or white), white bread, white pasta, cooked potaties, overcooked vegetables, etc.
Then get a multivitamin and multimineral supplement(s) that includes all the vitamins, minerals, and a good dose of phytonutrients. These can help with the healing process and minimize inflammation.
A trail mix of various nuts, seeds, raisins and such is good for snacking. Throw in a few M&Ms if you must, but you don't need it. Beware of preserved fruits with sulphites and added sugar. A good variety of various colored fruits w/o sugar or preservatives - dried or fresh - is best for snacking.
And finally...drink lots of fluids, and avoid too much caffeine and salt. Bubbly water with a dash of orange, lemon, or lime is a great treat.
- Bill
What kind of climate are you trecking in?
When I did 100 mile hike in four days through the Pac NW, the things that kept me going were the things that I turn my nose up at except on rare occassions when I have a craving. Greasy, high salt, high fat stuff. Protein was good, very good, and the more fat the better. I licked the sardine can clean on day 3.
I drink lots of water anyway so the water volume wasn't that big of a deal. I did have iodine with me and used it on a biking trip when we found a fast flowing spring (already piped, not running on the ground). Boy that water was good, even with the iodine ... you get used to it.
I also chewed a lot of jerky.
And when I hit the coast after that 100 miles, I discovered heaven. All you can eat crab legs drizzled generously with butter. I don't think I could have eaten half as much normally as I did that day, not just the volume but how rich it was. My body needed it at that point, and there were no nasty after effects from gorging either. Holy cow was that good! Or in this case, holy crab.
So my recommendation is to pack fat.
And ditto Bill's comments about those 'white' carbs. Waste of weight, even as light as they are.
Watch out for that transition from your regular food to what you'll be subsisting on. Some bodies don't like abrupt change and you'll have no fun if you dive into a diet radically different from your normal one and your body says NO. Hard to argue with your own stomach and intestines when they get uppity.
Kami
When I did 100 mile hike in four days through the Pac NW, the things that kept me going were the things that I turn my nose up at except on rare occassions when I have a craving. Greasy, high salt, high fat stuff. Protein was good, very good, and the more fat the better. I licked the sardine can clean on day 3.
I drink lots of water anyway so the water volume wasn't that big of a deal. I did have iodine with me and used it on a biking trip when we found a fast flowing spring (already piped, not running on the ground). Boy that water was good, even with the iodine ... you get used to it.I also chewed a lot of jerky.
And when I hit the coast after that 100 miles, I discovered heaven. All you can eat crab legs drizzled generously with butter. I don't think I could have eaten half as much normally as I did that day, not just the volume but how rich it was. My body needed it at that point, and there were no nasty after effects from gorging either. Holy cow was that good! Or in this case, holy crab.
So my recommendation is to pack fat.
And ditto Bill's comments about those 'white' carbs. Waste of weight, even as light as they are.
Watch out for that transition from your regular food to what you'll be subsisting on. Some bodies don't like abrupt change and you'll have no fun if you dive into a diet radically different from your normal one and your body says NO. Hard to argue with your own stomach and intestines when they get uppity.
Kami
One seed, many lives.
Bill:
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately preservation qualities is rather important also, so whole vegetables and fruits or meats aren't really an issue. Remember, this stuff has to be edible after two weeks in a backpack.
As for fluids, I'm bringing a First Need Water Purifier, spare filter canister and Potable Aqua iodine tablets as backup. I'm not going to be packing all my water in with me, since that would weigh another 50-60 pounds by itself.
Kami:
The climate is tropical, the destination being either slightly southwest of Manaus, Brasil, or west of Iquitos, Peru. Either way, it'll be hot and humid, and I definitely plan on drinking a ton of water. The problem with packing fat is that it usually doesn't keep well.
My first thought is to create a recipe dry food bars composed of a balance of whey/soy protein powder, peanut oil, flour and sugar. Plus some flavoring, fiber and whatever else I discover. I'm thinking I would make this the staple of my diety, supplemented by vitamins and occasional other foods.
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately preservation qualities is rather important also, so whole vegetables and fruits or meats aren't really an issue. Remember, this stuff has to be edible after two weeks in a backpack.
As for fluids, I'm bringing a First Need Water Purifier, spare filter canister and Potable Aqua iodine tablets as backup. I'm not going to be packing all my water in with me, since that would weigh another 50-60 pounds by itself.
Kami:
The climate is tropical, the destination being either slightly southwest of Manaus, Brasil, or west of Iquitos, Peru. Either way, it'll be hot and humid, and I definitely plan on drinking a ton of water. The problem with packing fat is that it usually doesn't keep well.
My first thought is to create a recipe dry food bars composed of a balance of whey/soy protein powder, peanut oil, flour and sugar. Plus some flavoring, fiber and whatever else I discover. I'm thinking I would make this the staple of my diety, supplemented by vitamins and occasional other foods.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Justin
You could always get some Zone bars for snack. They pack well. However you are going to have to avoid the ones with chocolate covering because they melt in the tropical weather. Unfortunately with bars, things that stay solid in warm weather that have fat are almost by definition composed largely of saturated fats. Good for the energy, and not good for the heart.
In Boy Scouts, we made "bird seed." It's basically nuts/seeds, raisins, and M&Ms. You can buy stuff like this by the gross in packages. My preference would be to avoid the M&Ms and stick with the nuts/seeds/raisins. But if you don't mind the sugar and the cocoa butter fat from some M&Ms, well that's fine. Nuts/seeds have lots of good (monounsaturated) fat and protein, and they pack well. They are easy to snack on. Again, get it without salt if you can.
Locally we have stores like Blue Ridge Mountain Sports and Dick's Sporting Goods that have hydration gear and cooking equipment. They are a great resource to start with so that you can pack what you need with as little weight as possible. Stores like these are a great place for ideas, and may also point you to where you can get things like MREs.
- Bill
You could always get some Zone bars for snack. They pack well. However you are going to have to avoid the ones with chocolate covering because they melt in the tropical weather. Unfortunately with bars, things that stay solid in warm weather that have fat are almost by definition composed largely of saturated fats. Good for the energy, and not good for the heart.
In Boy Scouts, we made "bird seed." It's basically nuts/seeds, raisins, and M&Ms. You can buy stuff like this by the gross in packages. My preference would be to avoid the M&Ms and stick with the nuts/seeds/raisins. But if you don't mind the sugar and the cocoa butter fat from some M&Ms, well that's fine. Nuts/seeds have lots of good (monounsaturated) fat and protein, and they pack well. They are easy to snack on. Again, get it without salt if you can.
Locally we have stores like Blue Ridge Mountain Sports and Dick's Sporting Goods that have hydration gear and cooking equipment. They are a great resource to start with so that you can pack what you need with as little weight as possible. Stores like these are a great place for ideas, and may also point you to where you can get things like MREs.
- Bill
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Justin,
Sounds like a great trip, I'm seriously jealous. One of my employees at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports recently returned from 5+ months in South America (Chile and Peru). His emails and Blog were awesome reading.
Since I make my living helping people prepare for trips like yours, I'll chime in with some cursory advice.
Water: The First Need should provide all the protection you'll need from nasties in the water (if their claims are true). We don't sell it so my first hand knowledge is nil. Chemical backup is a good idea. Stuff breaks. The First Need is heavy compared to some others (Katahdin and MSR) and its purifier claims are dubious. Most microfilters for backcountry use can take out anything over ~.2 microns. Viruses are smaller than that. In the backcountry "above the last outhouse" the .2 micron is fine. Any where else the water must be "purified". This means kill the beasties. Boiling for at least 5 minutes (unless high altitude) is great but uses fuel and time (can't drink it that hot). Chemical treatment and filtration is what your municipal system does, among other things, and is, in my opinion the best option. Filter it and treat it. Iodine does not kill everything. Chlorine is better - MicroPur, Aquamira or the new DARPA developed Miox System. I LOVE my Miox, it is elegant, there is no nasty flavor and it is light. You need to have access to rock salt (table will work but you need more of it) and you need a supply of lithium camera batteries for a long trip. Its disadvantage is as above, stuff breaks.
Food: If you are backpacking the whole time, no way you can carry enough calories for the entire trip on your back. There are many options in the freeze dried food category, designed for backpacking. Light (relatively), plenty of good nutrition, but a bit bulky. 14 to 21 days of just dinner would fill a 4000 c.i. pack. Youl be carrying a 6 to 7000, I expect. MREs are excellent, except they are heavy. You will need to plan food caches, mail drops or some other ressupply option. Given the logistics of your journey this could be challenging. You may have to rely, to some extent, on indiginous food. Eat what the locals eat, experience the culture, make friends.
Medical: TAKE CARE OF YOUR FEET!! Good Boots, properly fitted and broken in well before the trip. Good socks, merino wool and/or synthetic, (several pairs minimum) Blister care products, Compeed, Spyroflex and Duct Tape (yes Duct Tape). Disinfect and treat ALL wounds (scratches etc). Infection is damn serious. Antihistamines, antibiotics, medications for gastric/intestinal distress.
I could go on and on and on. This is the trip of a lifetime dude, do it right. Do your research.
Sounds like a great trip, I'm seriously jealous. One of my employees at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports recently returned from 5+ months in South America (Chile and Peru). His emails and Blog were awesome reading.
Since I make my living helping people prepare for trips like yours, I'll chime in with some cursory advice.
Water: The First Need should provide all the protection you'll need from nasties in the water (if their claims are true). We don't sell it so my first hand knowledge is nil. Chemical backup is a good idea. Stuff breaks. The First Need is heavy compared to some others (Katahdin and MSR) and its purifier claims are dubious. Most microfilters for backcountry use can take out anything over ~.2 microns. Viruses are smaller than that. In the backcountry "above the last outhouse" the .2 micron is fine. Any where else the water must be "purified". This means kill the beasties. Boiling for at least 5 minutes (unless high altitude) is great but uses fuel and time (can't drink it that hot). Chemical treatment and filtration is what your municipal system does, among other things, and is, in my opinion the best option. Filter it and treat it. Iodine does not kill everything. Chlorine is better - MicroPur, Aquamira or the new DARPA developed Miox System. I LOVE my Miox, it is elegant, there is no nasty flavor and it is light. You need to have access to rock salt (table will work but you need more of it) and you need a supply of lithium camera batteries for a long trip. Its disadvantage is as above, stuff breaks.
Food: If you are backpacking the whole time, no way you can carry enough calories for the entire trip on your back. There are many options in the freeze dried food category, designed for backpacking. Light (relatively), plenty of good nutrition, but a bit bulky. 14 to 21 days of just dinner would fill a 4000 c.i. pack. Youl be carrying a 6 to 7000, I expect. MREs are excellent, except they are heavy. You will need to plan food caches, mail drops or some other ressupply option. Given the logistics of your journey this could be challenging. You may have to rely, to some extent, on indiginous food. Eat what the locals eat, experience the culture, make friends.
Medical: TAKE CARE OF YOUR FEET!! Good Boots, properly fitted and broken in well before the trip. Good socks, merino wool and/or synthetic, (several pairs minimum) Blister care products, Compeed, Spyroflex and Duct Tape (yes Duct Tape). Disinfect and treat ALL wounds (scratches etc). Infection is damn serious. Antihistamines, antibiotics, medications for gastric/intestinal distress.
I could go on and on and on. This is the trip of a lifetime dude, do it right. Do your research.
ted
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
Bill:
Thanks for the additional suggestions. I agree about the M&Ms and don't plan to bring any since they'd melt and aren't really nutritionally efficient. I can.
Interesting info about the other chemical brands, I'll look into those.
[qupte]
Medical: TAKE CARE OF YOUR FEET!!
[/quote]
Definitely good advice and something I'm carefully planning out.
Thanks for the additional suggestions. I agree about the M&Ms and don't plan to bring any since they'd melt and aren't really nutritionally efficient. I can.
Want to post or email a link to his Blog? valkenar at yahoo doot com is my email address, or PM here.Ted Dinwiddie wrote:Justin,
His emails and Blog were awesome reading.
The weight is an issue, but my thinking was that weight has to take a back seat to effectiveness when it comes to ensuring drinkable water. You think their claims are exagerated? When I asked the company about its suitability they mentioned that people using it in the amazon basin had trouble with silt, and suggested a backup canister, but didn't mention it's general unsuitability. Of course, that doesn't mean anything but the information I was able to find on it seemed to back up their claims. On their website they give .1 nominal and .4 absolute particle retention. I'm not sure entirely how to interpret that. Does that mean the real number is .4? That would be sad. But even if .1 micron were the relevant number, would that be small enough? How would you recommend finding out if the filter really will handle viral contamination?Water: The First Need should provide all the protection you'll need from nasties in the water (if their claims are true). The First Need is heavy compared to some others (Katahdin and MSR) and its purifier claims are dubious.
Interesting info about the other chemical brands, I'll look into those.
No? I've read 2lbs/day as the recommended amount. I was thinking that if I put some effort into optimizing the nutrition to weight ratio by cooking food down into bars I could do a little better than that. Even so, 21 days is 42 pounds, which is a pretty miserable weight to have to lug around, but not beyond the realm of possibility. I do plan to have a very large pack, which is something I'm still researching and shopping for.Food: If you are backpacking the whole time, no way you can carry enough calories for the entire trip on your back.
I have a few different routes I'm exploring the viability of, but they each will take me through two or three native villages. I'll be doing it with a guide along as well. I don't want to have to rely too much on indiginous food, because I have no experience with living off the land here, let alone in a totally different environment. I'm definitely willing to supplement what I bring, but I'd rather have to turn back because I tried to bring too much food than get in trouble because I didn't bring enough and am for some reason unable to make do with local foods. I don't have any known food allergies, but if I happen to be allergic to manioc (the local staple) it might be very difficult to stay healthy, for example.You may have to rely, to some extent, on indiginous food. Eat what the locals eat, experience the culture, make friends.
[qupte]
Medical: TAKE CARE OF YOUR FEET!!
[/quote]
Definitely good advice and something I'm carefully planning out.
Yes, it is. Also, there are flies down there that will lay eggs in open wounds, and all sorts of other lovely infestations you can get. Snakes, spiders, botflies, fire ants, candiru, jaguars. Wait, why am I going again?Infection is damn serious.
Thanks, I'm definitely trying to. I don't plan on going probably for another year, probably. I need that time to find out everything I need to, buy all the things I need to, find a guide (and possibly others), get vaccinated, learn some portuguese, and do a dry run somewhere closer to home over the summer. Not to mention getting into shape. Lots to be done.I could go on and on and on. This is the trip of a lifetime dude, do it right. Do your research.
Wilderness survival books usually have a section on how to be 98% sure of what you can eat and not eat safely in the wild. I'm sure you already have one, but something like http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books would be helpful to take?
-
Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Justin,
Because, I could find NO independent verification of any of the claims of the manufacturers. I actually was designing a test of all the major filters/purifiers with the help of coworkers who were biologists and water treatment system specialists for the environmental consulting firm (TEC, Inc.) where I worked. I figured I'd do it and publish the results. Well, it was a little over my head and outside my finances (lab work of a legally verifiable quality is EXPENSIVE). So, it never happened. But I did quite a bit of study of some of the available literature and try to stay current. Yes, I am a gear geek, as they say. Hence my chosen profession.
First some semantics. Microfilters physically screen out particles down to a .4 to .1 micron size. This removes the stuff like giardia and cryptosporidium and most bacteria like e. coli. As well as the dirt and other floating crap. Silt is a problem. Some filter companies actually sell a pre-filter (~4 micron) that attaches to the intake hose and removes the big stuff, thus saving the microfilter for the really bad stuff. The pre-filters are nice, but I find a good coffee filter wrapped around the intake bulb works very well and they are cheap and light.
Purifiers remove(kill) all (most) pathogens in the water. Your municipal water meets some of the strictest possible standards and there are undoubtedly still some things both chemical and biological hanging around. The point being that they are not numerous enough or of sufficient concentration to harm you.
Five or 6 years ago, lots of the portable water treatment companies (Pur, Sweetwater, Katahdin) sold what they claimed were purifiers. Usually these were their microfilters with some extra attachement or different cartridge that passed the water through an iodine matrix that was supposed to kill the bugs. They all claimed some sort of EPA certification. One problem, there was no EPA certifacation standard for portable water treatment systems. I actually contacted the EPA in the process of researching this subject and the person I corresponded with was actually a little surprised with these claims. Within the next two years ALL purification claims and purifier models had been discontinued. The chemical treatment requires a span of time in the water to do its job and these units werre not doing that. Cryptosporidium is a hard-shelled beastie and requires 4 hours of contact with chlorine to die. I have been told that iodine actually does not kill it at all.
First Need still claims purifier status for its unit, without chemical treatment. I have not met anyone who can explain why they can still do that.
I personally subscribe to the "belt and suspenders" approach of filter and treat (with chlorine). In the backcountry of West Va if it's just me and other adults, I may only filter. When my kids are along, I take no chances with their young immune systems. South American Jungles and any other tropical environment has lots of stuff, from microbial to furry that we do not. Do not take any chances.
Pur sold its portable filter business to Katahdin and The Sweetwater filter was part of Cascade Designs who now owns Mountain Safety Research (MSR) who already made filters. So Katahdin and MSR are now the dominant water trreatment guys. All of the products are good quality and well tested, as far as maintainability and durability. The DARPA developed Miox is marketed under the MSR name.
I could bore the stuffing right out of you, but I'll stop now. Bill posted a link to the Blue Ridge Mountain Sports Website. If you call the 800 number, you can speak directly to me if you want and ask any questions you have. I truly love helping people get out and enjoy.
That is the "interesting" thing about water treatment. You do not want to find out the hard way about the virus issue. The micron ratings are always an "average" or "nominal", so who the heck knows?
On their website they give .1 nominal and .4 absolute particle retention. I'm not sure entirely how to interpret that. Does that mean the real number is .4? That would be sad. But even if .1 micron were the relevant number, would that be small enough? How would you recommend finding out if the filter really will handle viral contamination?
Because, I could find NO independent verification of any of the claims of the manufacturers. I actually was designing a test of all the major filters/purifiers with the help of coworkers who were biologists and water treatment system specialists for the environmental consulting firm (TEC, Inc.) where I worked. I figured I'd do it and publish the results. Well, it was a little over my head and outside my finances (lab work of a legally verifiable quality is EXPENSIVE). So, it never happened. But I did quite a bit of study of some of the available literature and try to stay current. Yes, I am a gear geek, as they say. Hence my chosen profession.
First some semantics. Microfilters physically screen out particles down to a .4 to .1 micron size. This removes the stuff like giardia and cryptosporidium and most bacteria like e. coli. As well as the dirt and other floating crap. Silt is a problem. Some filter companies actually sell a pre-filter (~4 micron) that attaches to the intake hose and removes the big stuff, thus saving the microfilter for the really bad stuff. The pre-filters are nice, but I find a good coffee filter wrapped around the intake bulb works very well and they are cheap and light.
Purifiers remove(kill) all (most) pathogens in the water. Your municipal water meets some of the strictest possible standards and there are undoubtedly still some things both chemical and biological hanging around. The point being that they are not numerous enough or of sufficient concentration to harm you.
Five or 6 years ago, lots of the portable water treatment companies (Pur, Sweetwater, Katahdin) sold what they claimed were purifiers. Usually these were their microfilters with some extra attachement or different cartridge that passed the water through an iodine matrix that was supposed to kill the bugs. They all claimed some sort of EPA certification. One problem, there was no EPA certifacation standard for portable water treatment systems. I actually contacted the EPA in the process of researching this subject and the person I corresponded with was actually a little surprised with these claims. Within the next two years ALL purification claims and purifier models had been discontinued. The chemical treatment requires a span of time in the water to do its job and these units werre not doing that. Cryptosporidium is a hard-shelled beastie and requires 4 hours of contact with chlorine to die. I have been told that iodine actually does not kill it at all.
First Need still claims purifier status for its unit, without chemical treatment. I have not met anyone who can explain why they can still do that.
I personally subscribe to the "belt and suspenders" approach of filter and treat (with chlorine). In the backcountry of West Va if it's just me and other adults, I may only filter. When my kids are along, I take no chances with their young immune systems. South American Jungles and any other tropical environment has lots of stuff, from microbial to furry that we do not. Do not take any chances.
Pur sold its portable filter business to Katahdin and The Sweetwater filter was part of Cascade Designs who now owns Mountain Safety Research (MSR) who already made filters. So Katahdin and MSR are now the dominant water trreatment guys. All of the products are good quality and well tested, as far as maintainability and durability. The DARPA developed Miox is marketed under the MSR name.
I could bore the stuffing right out of you, but I'll stop now. Bill posted a link to the Blue Ridge Mountain Sports Website. If you call the 800 number, you can speak directly to me if you want and ask any questions you have. I truly love helping people get out and enjoy.
ted
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
