Zhou Zihe

[Stryke]

thought I`d post this here , is just out of curiousity .

How was the association between Kanbun Uechi and Sushiwa of tiger boxing fame established ? .

Is this a firm lineage or is it recognised as mere possibility ?

Is there a similarity in form or technique or do other records exist to establish the link ?



Marcus

[Rick Wilson]

Marcus:

Shushiwa or Zhou Zi Her (also written or pronounced Cho Zen Ho) is pretty much recognized as Uechi Kanbun’s teacher.

However, the picture that most people have in their dojo and call Shishiwa is what some question.

In 1974 there was a trip to China to find Shushiwa. Tomoyose Sensei was interviewed by George after the trip. See the ninth video clip down:

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/videos/masters.html

In this interview Tomoyose Sensei makes it very clear that he believes what the decedents of this Zhou Zi Her do is NOT related to Uechi Ryu. Tomoyose Sensei does not believe they found the correct Shushiwa.

Can this be possible? Another Zhou Zi Her who did martial arts?

When asked who his teacher was Kanbun would reply “the house of Shu.”

Well first of all, Shu = Zhou = Chow. Do you know how many Chow’s there are in China?

So let’s show a current example of how someone might track down the wrong person based on a name and some information.

If years later some one tried to track down a Kanei Uechi who did Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseirui with a half hard and half soft style that used Sanchin stance primarily and Waukes they may well find him.

In fact you can find him still alive (I believe) and practicing today in Okinawa.

The problem is that it is ANOTHER Kanei Uechi who does Goju Ryu and is not related to OUR Kanei Uechi at all.

So the fact that they found a Shushiwa who did Tiger style in Fouzhou is not that odd at all.

So Shushiwa WAS Kanbun’s teacher what is contested by some is the picture people have of “him.” I decided to move mine off the front to the side.

The interview is exceptionally interesting for a number of reasons and well worth the listen. This interview along with other great stuff is available on the “Searching for Shushiwa” tape or DVD from “the store.”

I believe Shushiwa is Kanbun teacher or the main person he learned from.

Interesting note by the way: Bob Campbell’s research on Pwangainuun found it to be a sub-sect of the White Lotus Society and the Hong Kong police records show the head of this organization (at the time Kanbun was in China) to be Zhou Ze Her also written Cho Zen Ho, or in Japanese, Shushiwa.

So if he was the head of a secret society then it is not hard to see why we have trouble tracking anything at all down about him – he would not want to have been found.

So the fact that records are hard to find is really not that hard to understand or believe.

[MikeK]

Interesting note by the way: Bob Campbell’s research on Pwangainuun found it to be a sub-sect of the White Lotus Society and the Hong Kong police records show the head of this organization (at the time Kanbun was in China) to be Zhou Ze Her also written Cho Zen Ho, or in Japanese, Shushwa

Are you saying he was involved with a bad element! I've heard stories about some masters and many seemed to have connections to crime, were body guards, enforcers, prize fighters or brawlers. Somewhere we were sold the image that the men who put together these arts were hippies dancing in the daisies.

"[Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them."
Orwell on Kipling.

[benzocaine]

Mike,

There is some speculation that Master Kanbun left China not because his student killed someone, but rather it was him.

[Stryke]

Thanks Rick .

good information guys

[cxt]

MikeK

Excellent post.

Makes me think of Aikido.

Back in the day Ueshiba's school was known as the "hell dojo" due to the severity of its training.

Striking, hitting, "atemi" PRIOR to or in conjuction with the throw/technique was a strong focus the early days.

Guy was known for his physical strength and endurance.

Heavily muscled.

Trained under very "hard" men.

And the popular image of the guy is a wispy, elf-like guru.

Which is also true--just not all he was.

[MikeK]

That was a nice thing about Choki Motobu, he never looked elfin or wizened.

[Stryke]

Karate is a tool we can use to subjucate the barbarian masses

[Guest]

[Rick Wilson]

Hi Mike:

“Are you saying he was involved with a bad element!”



In those days the secret societies were in revolt against the emperor. The White Lotus Society was devoted to driving out foreign investors.

The secret societies later developed into criminal organizations.

[RACastanet]

Great info Rick.

Thanks,

Rich

[MikeK]

Hi Mike:
In those days the secret societies were in revolt against the emperor. The White Lotus Society was devoted to driving out foreign investors.
The secret societies later developed into criminal organizations.

And thank God that Chuck Heston was there to save the day! I love that movie

You're right Rick. Many old secret societies started out with political or religious motives but changed, maybe from rubbing shoulders to much with secret crime societies. Still goes on today in surprising alliances.
To hijack Strykes thread further, as I started getting exposed to some of the more violent techniques in karate I had to wonder where they came from. Couldn't be from those elfin old masters, right? Many tend to have an image of what an old karate master was that may not be what they really were like. I think they led more interesting lives then they let on.

[Bill Glasheen]

I too want to compliment and thank Rick for his post.

Bobby Campbell has been a great "alternate" source of historical information on the origins of Uechi. I've had a few interesting chats with him. Understand that Bobby has traveled around the world, visited all our great masters of Uechi Ryu, and did his own trips to the mainland. I believe he's in Hong Kong these days. He's a very smart man with an amazing ability to network and extract information. It is one of his many gifts.

BTW, Bobby told me an alternate translation of the "pangainoon" characters. It's something like "strike hard, retreat fast", and that slogan could have been from a rebel group Kanbun frequented in his Fuzhou studies. It goes with the nature of boxer rebellion era fighting tactics. Interesting...

Now if only the man will get off his arse and WRITE... (Hint, hint...) Like a few others I know who are privy to information, but fail to put pen to paper.

There was a wonderful article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts about oral history in karate. Oral history has its issues. There is truth. And then there is art. And then there is family reputation. And then there is the imperfect nature of telling a story from person to person without first putting it down on paper and/or establishing a reputable source that we all can check on later. So what we have coming from our teachers is a mix of truth and something else.

Questioning the standard line also can have its issues. If only you folks knew the e-mail exchanges I have had... I've kept them all (going back some time) just to remind me now and then about how the fallibility of man gets in the way of finding truth. But I see no merit in airing the dirty laundry to make a point.

Let's just say that getting at the truth of Kanbun's studies in China always will be an "interesting" exercise. Keep the mind open and the cup empty. But don't get all your information from a single source - especially when that source insists.

Mike

Many well-schooled traditionalists (Patrick McCarthy as an example) preach that for the most part kata contain brutal, lethal technique. We can take the principles of kata and develop a "civilized" art. But we should not kid ourselves about the nature of the information buried in our forms. True self defense is all about a life-and-death struggle, and making the OTHER guy the martyr.

- Bill

[Bruce Hirabayashi]

Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:

BTW, Bobby told me an alternate translation of the "pangainoon" characters. It's something like "strike hard, retreat fast", and that slogan could have been from a rebel group Kanbun frequented in his Fuzhou studies. It goes with the nature of boxer rebellion era fighting tactics. Interesting...

Now if only the man will get off his arse and WRITE... (Hint, hint...) Like a few others I know who are privy to information, but fail to put pen to paper.

At the Summer 2002 Camp, Bobby led Q&A questions during the “meet the master” sessions. One person asked about the origin of “Pan-gai-noon” and if it was the “real Uechi-ryu”.

Bobby got into this question with real relish. This was his answer, to the best of my recollection. If there is misinformation in the following, please blame my faulty memory rather than attribute it to Bobby.

• 1st, he stated that it was not pronounced “Pan-gai-noon”, rather the term was pronounced “p’wan-gai-noon”. (In a similar fashion, Uechi is not really pronounced “WAY-chee”, rather it is pronounced “oo-EH-chee”. The “oo” part is very short, and flows directly into the “EH” part so “oo-EH” sounds almost like a single syllable).
  
  2nd, he said that “P’wan-gai-noon” was a word from the Haka dialect. Folks familiar with Mandarin or Cantonese (and who did not know Haka) would not know the (spoken) word. He went on to say that “P’wan-gai-noon” did not mean “half-hard, half-soft”. Rather the Kanji meant (in Haka), “Strike Hard, Retreat Fast”.
  
  3rd, “P’wan-gai-noon” did not refer to a style, rather it was a secret, probably criminal society (hence “strike hard, retreat fast”) similar to the Triads. Such criminal societies hired many teachers to teach their members techniques that would serve them in their roles as enforcers. There would have not been a single “teacher” or “style”.
  
  4th, the entire idea of “style” in sense it is currently understood in the West did not exist in 19th century China. Rich people would hire a teacher to teach their extended family to defend itself (usually many generations and branches of a family lived in a single large compound). After many years or generations, the collection of martial techniques taught to that family might pick up the name of that family, e.g., “Chen-style gung-fu” or what not. But other than the wealthy, warrior, religious or criminal class, folks in China back then did not have the leisure time as we do to spend pursing a “martial art”. If you accept this, then it follows that Kanbun would have had to been either wealthy, a warrior, a priest or a criminal. And given that he was an immigrant from Okinawa, escaping the draft into the Japanese army, the last category would be somewhat more likely than the other three.

So, did Kanbun bring a “style” from China? Bobby’s answer was no. He feels that Kanbun merely brought a few kata and some training techniques from China that he had learned from his time with the P’wan-gai-noon “society”. It was in Okinawa that it was formalized, added to, then ultimately codified into the vibrant and robust style we now know as Uechi-ryu Karate-do.

So, what of the search for the “original”or “real” Uechi-ryu”? If you agree with Bobby’s history, searching for the original “Uechi-ryu” by going back to “P’wan-gai-noon” would be like looking for the “original art of intimidation” by researching the La Costa Nostra. Yes, LCN was great at intimidation, but as we all know, they were a criminal organization, not an “intimidation style”. Moreover, they likely had dozens of very effective intimidation techniques, taught by many “masters”.

With respect,

Bruce Hirabayashi
Rokudan
Frederick County
Maryland

[MikeK]

Bill, Something I've wondered about is if there was more offense in karate in the old days. Why come up with such a variety of defenses if there also wasn't a variety of offenses. There must have been an ongoing development of both. I think there was a less sunny side to the old karateka that has been pushed to the side. Even today I've seen where people get excited that someone from the spec ops community is going to teach, but go white and leave when they hear some of the non-self defense things that they had to do while in the field. An arnis guru comes immediatly to mind, and it was a side of the man that nobody felt comfy with.

I'm looking at McCarthy's Bubushi (home sick today and bored) and there is reference to chikusaji pechin (street cops) who made arrests and I doubt they read the Miranda to the suspects. There is also reference to hiki who guarded the king, but what else did protecting the king entail? There are just some techniques that seem like they have a small ROI as defenses but make great attacks if done on the sneak. Maybe something good for breaking up a fight or silent sentry removal? I kind of wonder if we apply the term self-defense to the arts that we do to make it more socially and emotionally acceptable. If we referred to ourselves as "the guys who make the OTHER guy the martyr" on the class schedule we might raise a few eye brows at the facility. Though it does have a nice ring to it.