Themes in bridge kata?

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MikeK
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Themes in bridge kata?

Post by MikeK »

Not being able to make class last night I decided to take a stab at Kanshu to try to get a better feel for Uechi; I managed to get the gross movements down up to the jump. One thing I noticed is that it has a very different feel than Kanshiwa. Kanshiwa, to me, seems somewhat incomplete, a series of techniques sequenced together that seem somewhat generic . Kanshu on the other hand feels more Uechi like with it's moving attacks, aggresivness, clusters of nasty techniques that hit the opponent one after the other, and no seiken. I really like Kanshu.

So one question I have is does each bridge kata have a theme to it, a specific point it's trying to focus the student on?

Another thing I'm wondering about is the sanchin opening and the east and west bushikens after the middle of the kata. They seem to be added on as a link or reminder for the student to look back to Sanchin. I know they are techniques by themselves but they don't seem to totally "fit" in with the rest of the kata which to me has a lot of drive and flow to it. It's almost like you are countering and chasing down your opponent until he is finished for each line of the kata. How far off base am I on this? :?
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Post by Dana Sheets »

I managed to get the gross movements down up to the jump.
Where are you doing a jump in this form?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

MIke wrote:does each bridge kata have a theme to it, a specific point it's trying to focus the student on?
That's a good question. Certainly each one of the bridge kata has a unique feel to it. Another thing to consider is that each bridge kata has a unique author or set of authors.

I don't think the authors thought much about themes per se. Rather I think what they wanted to do is introduce some of the techniques of the 2 more complex kata (Seisan and Sanseiryu) without getting too far into the complexity of movement in these forms.

If you listen to Tomoyose Sensei, he has a more cynical view of it all. After WWII, the Okinawans were short on cash and jobs. Karate was something that could be marketed. But Uechi's martial art only had three forms. In a Western marketing world, fewer forms possibly implied an inferior product. More forms meant more tuition over the long haul, and a greater attraction for a Western student who equated bigger and more with better. Ask Tomoyose Sensei what he thinks of all this other material, and he'll tell you that everything is in Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu.

It's worth mentioning though that there is some value to these bridge forms. Kanshiwa teaches you how to punch - if you must. It also has the sokuto geri, which mysteriously also is found in my Fuzhou Suparinpei. Kanshu is a simpler version of Seisan. It was once called Daini Seisan (little Seisan). Seichin is a different animal. It is some of the techniques of sanseiryu in the structure of seisan. It also has wrist movements that again can be found in my Fuzhou Suparinpei. Seiryu is Seisan all over again, with a different spin on the neat opening of Kanshu and one very nice technique in Sanseiryu. Kanchin is Sanseiryu plus more tastes of Fuzhou Suparinpei.

BTW, I am not concluding that there was an effort to employ techniques from this kata Kanbun saw in China but never learned. But it's an intriguing thought. The Suparinpei I know is too much for most people, and the one Kanbun saw also seemed too much for him to want to take on. Taking a few of the techiques from it possibly was one way to take a little of what he saw and run with it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the bridge kata serve to show you more examples of the "grammar" of Uechi Ryu. When you see that techniques can be strung together in different sequences that still seem to make sense, then you start to make the leap that you can do so as well. There is nothing sacred about the beginning-to-end sequence in what amounts to three walking reference books.

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Post by RACastanet »

"It was once called Daini Seisan (little Seisan)."

I do not believe that is correct. Dai ni is an ordinal, so would translate to second Seisan or Seisan #2.

Also, this info was in a recent thread on Van's forum with info via Breyette sensei:

The third kata was originally known as Kanshabu, then renamed to Kanshuu,
and later “Daini (Second, or Lesser) Seisan”, and finally Kanshuu once
again. This form was also created by the group of seniors headed by UEHARA
Sensei and so is attributed to him
.

If you do not buy into the ordinal, 'dai' standing alone translates into large, or big.

Rich




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Post by 2Green »

I think there are techniques in Kanshu (Daini Seisan) that prepare you for learning Seisan later on.

What's nice about Kanshiwa is that there is a Bunkai to it so can use the techniques in a prearranged drill...why did they pick Kanshiwa for this distinction?
There is no Sanchin Bunkai, no Kanshu Bunkai, no Seichin Bunkai.
Anyway, it's nice to have a Kata you get to use!

For me, the big eye-opening Kata was Seichin. And in Seichin you also learn the Scooping blocks you will need later in Seisan, so there is a bridging example as well.

NM
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich

It all depends on the characters. My Japanese is a little rusty, but I believe I am right on this one.

I believe daini means little or lesser.

Dai ni means number 2.

Generally if it was seisan number 2 (or second seisan), you say seisan dai ni. But Daini seisan should mean little (or lesser) seisan. It means one or the other, but it cannot mean both "lesser" and "second." A "dai ni" form is generally bigger and better than the "dai ichi" form.

Also...that post is incorrect. Kanshabu was the former name of the second kata. I have been around long enough to have been taught the second form by the name Kanshabu (in 1974). They really butchered the pronunciation and spelling back then (conchabu), but it was the same thing. Think about it, Rich. Kan is the first character of Kan-bun, and shiwa is the second character of Shu-shiwa. Shu-shiwa was also referred to as Shu-shabu.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Mike wrote:I'm wondering about is the sanchin opening and the east and west bushikens after the middle of the kata. They seem to be added on as a link or reminder for the student to look back to Sanchin.
How about this one, Mike. Seisan has three sanchin nukite thrusts (in three different directions) right smack dab in the middle of the form. So what the hell was the choreographer thinking?

Aaaahhhhh..... Those folks who argue with me about Sanchin nukite thrusts being metaphor, well I've got you here. ;) I have a very nice, plausible explanation of them in the context of the kick, knee thrust, and three shokens just before them. But it's easier shown that spoken. Hint - think barroom brawl.

But a single Sanchin thrust at the beginning of Kanshu before that nifty sequence I like (and is echoed in seiryu) could actually be a literal technique to the suprasternal notch. That sequence is very rich in targeted, sequential strikes. You can really get the bad guy going from one technique to the next, and you have several options (using the same techniques) based on what they are doing to you or how their arms are oriented.

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Post by benzocaine »

Kanshiwa, to me , seems somewhat incomplete, a series of techniques sequenced together that seem somewhat generic .
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Dana wrote:Where are you doing a jump in this form?
I teach the ending of Kanshu as a "baby Seisan jump." I show them from whence the sequence comes in Seisan kata.

The way I teach it, you scoot across the floor like a waterbug as far as you can. After you step with the left foot and then your right foot comes parallel to your left, I have people let both feet go and plant them firmly in the horse stance a good distance forwards from that interim position. It sort of, almost seems like a mini jump, but your head stays low and level.

This in turn makes all that scooting across the floor in Kanchin and Sanseiryu much easier later on. And it also makes sense as an interpretation of charging long and hard inside someone's defenses (especially if holding a weapon). The idea is to penetrate them with elbow so hard that you run through them like a knight with a jousting pole.

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Post by MikeK »

But a single Sanchin thrust at the beginning of Kanshu before that nifty sequence I like (and is echoed in seiryu) could actually be a literal technique to the suprasternal notch. That sequence is very rich in targeted, sequential strikes. You can really get the bad guy going from one technique to the next, and you have several options (using the same techniques) based on what they are doing to you or how their arms are oriented.
Ahhh..., so we could be doing a little sen or sen no sen there? I like that. As soon as I got enough of it down to realize what was going on that opening series quicky became one of my all time favorites in any kata. It feels like the Uechi-ryu I had heard about.

2Green, I think GEM came up with the bunkai for Kanshiwa. We could ask him why he picked it instead of one of the others. For me some nice applications from Kanshu jumped right out. Most sequences in Kanshiwa look to be a single block and a strike or two and then you move on. I love the first stretch of Kanshu, doing it I get the feeling of not letting the attacker off of the hook for the initial attack, there's a little more of a finish to the sequences. And it's a bit more nasty. :twisted: :lol:
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Post by RACastanet »

"little (or lesser)"

Yes, dai can mean lesser. Lesser and little are not the same. I'll stand my ground on this. I will agree 'Dai' can mean lesser, just not little.

"Dai ni means number 2."

No, dai preceeding ni creates the ordinal 'second'. Dai ichi no means 'first', and so on. Ni means the number 2.

"...that post is incorrect"
The prefix to this source material says:

"Following is published in the "Old Kyohon" and also
told by Kanei Uechi
." Bad translation maybe?

"A "dai ni" form is generally bigger and better than the "dai ichi" form."

I do not follow this logic. Second is behind first. As in "Kerry finished second in the vote for president." That is certainly not better (actually, for me and and about 60 million other voters it is!)

"Also...that post is incorrect. Kanshabu was the former name of the second kata."

I concede to your background, but I have seen in writing and heard it said that Kanshabu was the third kata. I'll have to dig through my pile of books to find that reference.

Any good Japanese linguists out there?

Rich
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich

Homonyms abound.

Daini does not necessarily equal dai ni. Two, too, and to are three different words that sound the same.

Also... Bo form Sakugawa dai ichi is the baby version of Sakugawa dai ni (as an example).

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

George most likely remembers the renaming of our second form.

In the end, they are just names.

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich

Check out this site, complete with the poor pronunciations and spellings. It is classic Americanized Uechi from way back in the 1960s and 1970s when poor George and company came back with lots of good martial material but not very good Japanese (or Okinawan dialect) speaking skills. These are exactly as I remember them.
The eight Kata or formal exercises of Uechi-Ryu Karate are:

1. Sanchin (pronounced as spelled) means three modes or conflicts.

2. Kanshiwa (pronounced as spelled); other spellings are Conchabu or Conchabo. This is the second form taught.

3. Dini Seisan (pronounced as spelled). This is the third form taught.

4. Seichin (pronounced Say chin). This is the fourth form taught.

5. Seisan (pronounced Say san). This is the fifth form taught.

6. Seirui or Seiloue (pronounced Say loo i). This is the sixth form taught.

7. Konchin (pronounced as spelled). This is the seventh form taught.

8. San sei rui (pronounced San say ru). This is the eighth form taught.

Kotickitai (pronounced Ko tick i tay). Arm rubbing and pounding exercise.
- Cameron's Karate and Fitness Center

I cleaned up a lot of my pronunciations and spellings after taking Japanese in 1978-1980, and then looking in Kanei Uechi's Kyohon. Alan Dollar's book was one of the first Uechi books in English to get most names and pronunciations correct.

You know who is a great resource on this? Gary Khoury.

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Post by RACastanet »

"Also... Bo form Sakugawa dai ichi is the baby version of Sakugawa dai ni (as an example)."

Yes, that is fine. Dai can also directly translate as 'generation'. I can see a first and second generation kata.

The Japanese language depends a lot on context.

In my 'good' Japanese/English dictionary, the sound 'dai' appears with 5 diffferent kanji characters. The meaning is determined somewhat by what it is connected with. Attach the 'dai' sound associated with the kanji for large to the 'ben' character, and you have a......... bowel movement!

Therefore, not kata, but kaka! :lol:

Rich
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