10-point kick

[2Green]

I'm posting this here because I'd like Dana's input, and also it's something we might all share.

In 10-point ("Dan") Kumite there is a sequence where the attacker basically launches him/herself into the air and front-kicks the opponent in the chest before landing on the opposite (left) foot.
I think it's sequence #4.

To visualize: Right Sanchin stance.
Leap up and forward, bringing left knee up and kicking with Right foot.
Land on left foot.

Question:
How many who do this are able to get that right kick strongly off while airborne, BEFORE touching down on the left foot?

(I VERY often see the kick actually timed to the touchdown.)

NM

[CANDANeh]

Hi Neil
The way I was taught prefer is NOT to get air. The front kick (off front foot) is a feint followed with rear kick. There is slight forward movement and looks like your getting air but your still "down". Anyone else do it this way or tried it? The kick feels strong but it`s not my thing(not something I would use often if at all), the counter to it I prefer.

[Guest]

I always did it as tobi mae geri when I did ten point.

Lots of systems use the kick. Marucs showed me a variation that was initiated with a front kick instead of a knee. It was very effective.

I like this kick a great deal. I compress into it at the top of the jump. The kick delivers the momentum of the jump thats a lot of extra mass sinking into the target.

[Mills75]

I'm not yet close to the stage of doing this particular thing talked about here.And i may be misunderstanding but it surprises me that it sounds like you guys are talking about a high kick and I can't imagine that being In uechi to be honest.As I said i'm only a green belt but at this stage I couldn't imagine my teacher having any use for a high kick as he always strongly emphasizes remaining rooted and in contact with the ground.he even told us about Bruce lee dancing and such things but said he felt bruce danced on the outside but when ready to strike his opponent he got in a solid rooted position before hitting.he used this as an example about how dancing around with feet not planted is not good for fighting at all..and if we ever saw bruce and thought he was a dancer he did that out of range but when he got ready to strike in range he rooted solidly..just takes me by surprise so i'll be interested in hearing about this technique cause frankly at least for my stage it surprises me..

[Dana Sheets]

Jeff - the Uechi system may not show the use of a flying front kick - but that doesn't mean you don't need to know how to defend against one. In order to learn how to defend against different kinds of techniques (strikes, kicks, grabs, shoves) you either need to train with folks who do them regularly or learn how to do them yourselves.

People kick. Non-martial artists kick is some pretty crazy ways. I was at a ground work seminar and watched a women knock a man off the top of her by pulling both her knees to her chest and then driving her heels into his face. This was a FAST Defense seminar so the man was wearing a heavy amount of body armour and his helmet was locked to his shoulder pad so his neck couldn't move. But the rest of him moved a lot.

So my point is that you never know what's coming and since our brains are big pattern matching machines you need to expose your brain to as many different kinds of attacks as possible if you want to be able to respond to them. If your brain doesn't have a pattern to match (or a similar pattern it can adapt) then your brain will spin in place trying to match patterns - which means you're just standing there. No a good thing in a fight.

That's the same reason for doing stuff on the ground - you may not like it, but you may end up there some day - so you gotta know what to do or you'll just flail around like a fish out of water.

Back to the kick. I'll say up front that I'm not particularly good at Dan kumite. I haven't trained it that much and still have to think my way through it. (I mostly do the Okikukai one.)

However my teacher spent years doing Kanei Uechi's Dan kumite and this is how I learned...

I was taught this as a jumping thrusting front kick, not a snapping kick. So the power comes from the fact that your hurling your entire body weight through the air. Bad news for whatever is directly in line with your kick, bad news for you if your target gets off the line...you can't change directions in the air.

So I was taught - Right foot forward, take a little sliding step with that right foot (forward energy) and then launch your left knee up into your chest with a big shove from your right leg (forward and up). Once you're off the ground quickly scissor your hips to bring your right foot up and extend the leg. The height of your jump determines how long you get to have your leg out in front of you. If you can't catch much air then you'll need to snap that kick back pretty quickly so you can use it to help with the landing. Otherwise you'll be able to hold it out awhile longer and then land with both feet at the same time. You gotta have that plyometric feel - like you're trying to slam dunk.

Height of the jump depends on technique and fitness. (obviously).

Try running into the kick. That will help you find the kind of momentum and movement you'll need to get off a good kick. (Or if you're really coordinated you can run, do a dive roll, and then pop up into the jumping kick. A guy knocked me and the bag I was holding clear across the dojo and into the locker rooms with that one once.)

So yes - I can kick and then land on a good day in the summer when I'm most fit. I'm not quite as special right now.....darn holiday cookies...but then I've only got to move 125 lbs up and into the air...if you've got more to move you're going to need more strength in your legs and your core.

And of course, if you've got bad knees or a bad back or bad ankles or don't know how to fall if your partner knocks you over then leave the flying to someone else.

[Deep Sea]

I remember learning it some 30-some years ago as a flying front kick to the face . It takes a while to get the height, but easy to maintain. Kicking leg fully extended, horizontal, and airborne at point of impact, just like Dana says: "your hurling your entire body weight through the air".

It's devastating to get hit with one, and devastating to hit someone square-on in the face with one. The necessary speed of the kick gives it a small time-window in which the kicker is open. Also moving the supporting foot first tends to fake out a lot of people the first number of times it's used against them. Even so, to have your body fully tensed at the time it is blocked, you are merely moved to landing in another direction [mostly parried to the side] unless the block is sweeping upward; then you are in trouble. I've used that kick sparring as well as in Uechi, and no one ever did a sweeping/scooping upward block against it as is the type found in some of our advanced kata.

[Bill Glasheen]

Out of respect for Dana and her own well-informed point of view, I held back until she had an opportunity to voice the response that was requested in the first place. That being said...

I think it's clear that there are several ways to do this, and nothing is sacred. I myself suffer a bit from "white man's disease," so I don't get a lot of hang time on my flying kicks. Nonetheless they were still a favorite of mine as a young man, and I'm still good enough to teach them at age 50 with one arthritic knee. Many of the techniques and subtleties involved have been mentioned.

Now... Time to offer my own opinion.

I've taught dan kumite for decades, and I tweak it endlessly. Here is what I have settled upon.

There is a variation on number 4 that some Okinawans do (as the second partner #4) and I do as well. In this attack, one uses a flying side kick as opposed to a flying front kick. I learned it from Okinawans on a week-long Thompson Island camp (circa 1984), and I've finally settled on a very nice defense with quite a few nasty caveats that the defender keeps in the back pocket.

For the side (thrust) kick, you pretty much have to do that as a flying (airborne) motion. And yes, that can be very powerful. I believe I still have a photograph someone took of me doing that motion on a heavy bag. The shape of the bag says it all. The power comes from the leap (forward momentum), and you deliver that to the opponent on your leg extension (transfer of momentum into an inelastic collision).

But the front kick really does not have to be a jump. I've tried it as such, and have now decided it serves no useful purpose (either on the offensive or defensive end). Furthermore, the "skipping" front thrust kick is both difficult to defend against (if you are stupid enough to step back), and easy to deliver. IF you do it right.

Here is where I insert my opinion - ever so cautiously. Emphasis below is my own.

So I was taught - Right foot forward, take a little sliding step with that right foot (forward energy) and then launch your left knee up into your chest with a big shove from your right leg (forward and up). Once you're off the ground quickly scissor your hips to bring your right foot up and extend the leg.

I don't teach that.

When it comes to doing this movement, I take it very seriously. No Hollywood. Do something that works, and do something that you will use. Hollywood then ends up being easier to defend against - believe it or not.

Rule number 1: DO NOT CHANGE DISTANCES between the two partners when you get to Dan Kumite #4. A fight is a fight is a fight. Wherever you are, that is where you make the thing work. Don't worry... If you do it right and set the person up properly, all will be fine. IMO, doing something different automatically gives away that you are doing a "distance" technique. There's no need to.

This technique is ready-made for the sparring (and fighting) arena when you find someone who likes to back up on you. "Pinging" an opponent with a front kick (or a fake) reveals this. You move and they step back. Aaahhhh! This is your moment.

So when the person backs up (like a fool) with the first knee (or front kick, or fake front kick), you use that motion to hurl your body FORWARDS (and NOT "up") into the opponent. This isn't about kicking an apple off of someone's head. This is about getting more forward motion than they have backwards motion, and very quickly. Don't worry - you're going to be right where you need to be when that second foot comes up and out. And they are going to fly into the bleachers if they don't know what they are doing.

Rule number 2: Do NOT move that front foot. You will NEVER get that technique off in a real sparring and/or fighting match if you do. It's too much telegraphing of your intention. Furthermore, you really don't NEED to do it if your energy in the leap goes mostly forwards rather than up.

Keep the front foot stationary. Practice kicking off the back foot a few times. Then practice kneeing off the back foot. Then practice doing the kneeing motion, only it's like driving off that front foot as if you're going up for a left-handed layup in basketball. Don't think up so much as forwards.

You can do exercises where you just drive with that rear knee, and scoot your right foot across the floor. It is the flying motion with training wheels. The farther you scoot, the better. Do that knee motion very strong and quickly. Remember - this can be the fake that sets the next front kick up. As Gary Khoury likes to say, "strong knees, please." The faster and stronger you do the knee, the more likely they react to it. (Eyes respond more to dL/dt than to delta L, if you know calculus).

Once you have all that down, then scizzor your legs as Dana describes. The left leg goes back and the right knee/leg comes forwards like you're doing an action/reaction punch exercise. If you did the first motion well (in real life) it caused the person to respond and there WILL be a opening about to appear. Your second foot times itself to hit that opening just when the window is at its widest opening.

BAM!!!

Works very well!

If you're Michael Jordan and you love hang time, you can fly. Otherwise "skip" the front kick. It works just as well, is just as damaging (if not more so), and you have better control. And I find a lot of lousy leapers do that just fine.

Have fun!

- Bill

[chewy]

In our dojo we (brown belts) practice Dan Kumite frequently and do use the jump/flying kick. We typically kick to the mid-section, but like Dana said, you have to be prepared for anything (one of the teen girls in our class is a former ballet dancer and she can kick VERY high!!). There are subtle differences between a jump kick and flying kick. In my Chito-ryu days I learned both; here are the differences to the best of my knowledge:

Jump Kick
----------
- typically involves a opposite leg feint (as in Dan Kumite)
- can be done without taking a "Step"
- very little forward momentum
- a lot of veritcal momentum
- more like a snap kick (keage) than a thrust kick (kekomi)
- typically to the front (mae or shomen) and striking with the ball of the foot

Flying Kick
-------------
- typically no leg feint
- requires at least one step to gain momentum
- a lot forward momentum
- some veritcal momentum
- more like a thrust kick (kekomi) than a snap kick (keage)
- typically from you side (yoko) and striking with the blade of the foot (sokuto) or heal of foot

In Dan Kumite there certainly is some forward momentum, but its really all about distancing. A flying front kick is impractical if your opponent is too close; in this case you would want to do a true jump kick and use almost all verticle momentum. Another thing to remember is that you only have so much energy to transfer into your jump and that energy is shared the horizontal and vertical directions. If you want to aim for the head or chest and, like me, you are not limber enough to kick high, then you want as much of your moe going vertical as possible (i.e., only enough horizontal to extend your foot "through" the target). On the other hand if you want to perform a knock-down/out then you want more horizontal moe.

Interesting side note. Someone asked a question about the practicality of a flying side kick in my old chito-ryu dojo (esp., the ones to the chest and head that you see in the Movies ) and my previous sensei said that some believe the kick was invented to knock a rider off his horse. Keep in mind that horses in Japan weren't large like American Thoroughbreds and given a rock outcroping (like you would find a beach) you could really get quite high. Not sure of the truth in it , but an entertaining story none-the-less .

cheers,

chewy

[Dana Sheets]

Nice points. However I don't subscribe to the notion that sliding feet telegraph your next movement. A sliding foot simply changes the distance between you and your opponent - that's all. Doesn't mean you have to jump. Because this is a pre-arragned kumite your movement is already expected.

That being said - remember I was describing how I was taught to learn the technique - doesn't mean that's how it will all work out when you've done the training and got good skill. We add a little front foot slide to many training exercises to teach using both legs and using body momentum. We also teach bringing up the rear leg to the front leg for explosive movements. Try the slide, try without the slide - I'm not one to embrace the idea of only one answer to the equation. Plus the distance to your opponent will also dictate what kind of kick you throw. If you decide to kick from wherever you may be - then you'll have to figure out how to adjust your distance. Which you can do by moving your back foot - your front foot, both feet, sliding or stepping - depends on what you need.

Bruce H. has a good story about his cousin and flying/spinning/high kicks. Maybe he'll drop by and tell it.

Our expectations are also colored by our training. TKD folks think nothing of throwing some flying kicks around and many do it very very well. Uechi folks who don't train them well will think them slow, difficult, and ineffective. They're just more tools for the toolbox and training helps you figure out which tool to pick for the job.

I appreciate the list of jump vs flying kicks and with Bill's descriptions you can add a skip kick to the list as well as a side thrust.


The main thing is to look at the principle (the template if you will.) When your opponent commits to a strong forward moving leg technique - don't stand there in front of the freight train - get off the tracks!!!

[Bill Glasheen]

Dana

Keith Hirabayashi (Bruce's cousin) is not human! As a 3-time national champion, he was able to do things that cannot be done by a "normal" person. But it's fun to watch.

Bruce had some of those genes. He started with me as a skinny, snotty-nosed teenager with marginal athletic skills. By about age 30, he was sleeping in lateral splits while still being able to squat over 400 pounds. I worked with him literally day by day for most of that journey.

Bruce's father was a professional diplomat. But as a youngster, he was a Golden Gloves boxer.

Not human...

Through it all, I've had people like Bruce and David Powell who could jump and kick my head. But the nice thing is I always had an effective, lowest common denominator to start people from. This is important, and it's something you can come back to when you actually have to do this in a real fight (forget the flying s***), or you are aging, or you are wearing your best and brand new Levis, or you haven't warmed up.

You have range, and you have options.

Simple is great. The flying stuff is for the photo ops, and for the folks who find them fun - in the gym. In TKD sport competition, there's always a few folks out there whose body types make that an option.

- Bill

[Mills75]

as always i have to say I respect all of you tremendously and value your advice truly and I have along way to go in martial arts but I must admit I'm pretty much deadset against any high kicks in my own opinion at least for now.I feel it's dangerous and the disadvantages that can occur from them far outwiegh any positive results.from wrestling in high school and playing even football i'd rather be rooted in a solid ground position then ever take to the air for any reason or length of time..and even witnessing street fights i've never seen anyone win with a highflying move or something that had them airborne. i feel it leaves you vulnerable and puts you at greater risk.this is just my humble novice opinion but even at this stage i pretty much can safely say I will personally never have use for any technique that is done while leaving the ground.I'd much prefer to stay solidly in contact and rooted.what can i say i'm not much experienced but I just don't prefer those techniques and I more than likely will always feel that way about anything that involves leaving the ground.

[Mills75]

this kick to me sounds like it's very much like if not the same as the kick in the first karate kid movie that I think they called a crane kick and kids imitated on the streets of the usa at that time..i think nine out of ten people would most likely be defeated by laughing so hard at seeing this posture in a fight then by feeling it's effects.I think Bill is so right about the foot movement too and backing up and posturing that would surely send the other fighter a message that you were getting ready for a big production move I think..also dana said something about matching patterns and I have to say i don't think i would have any time to think of anything other than reaction in a fight and I must say I would not seek to go to the air in my personal opinion I just don't feel it would be something i would want to do in reaction to any opponents move..i really feel unless the person was very skilled i would most likely just move out of the way and let the guy sail right by . those types of kicks just always remind me of the old pink panther movie when kato comes flying out of a closet trying to get Inspector Clousseau and sails through a dining room table i just can't get past that or the karate kid image ...

[chewy]

Someone charging you, but you don't notice till they are almost in range. You expect them to either tackle you or get up inside your defenses and start swinging. Just before they get there, though, they leave the ground. You are thinking to yourself "flying kick; I'll just scoot out of the way and knock him down". Unfortunately your opponent only gets 12" off the ground; and just as you are collapsing you realize he wasn't aiming for your head or chest, but your knee or ankle.

Obviously I am going a little over the top here, but not too much. If you are hurt/immobile, don't see it coming, or on the ground; one of these kicks is going to do damage. And the heavier the attacker, the worse it will be for you.

Back the the Karate Kid reference... yeah... talk about projecting your next move! Ignoring the goofy hand gestures though, he was essentially doing a jump kick, but freezing his feint with the other leg and striking a pose. (BTW- if you ever watched the disasterous sequels you can watch "the kid" doing kata in the middle of a sparring match; which apparantly hypnotizes the opponent so you can score. Don't try this at the dojo ).


cheers,

chewy

[Bill Glasheen]

Good scenario, chewy.

Dana brings up the point here. Whether skipping, jumping, or flying, whether kicking the head or the knee, there is a common element that you can respond to, no matter what happens. It's like what Rory was teaching at camp with "Dracula's cape." It was one of two moves that he taught to enter and engage an opponent, no matter what they did or how they responded. It was your 95/5 solution that's good enough for a non-thinking entry.

BTW, Dracula's cape looks a whole lot like a Uechi movement (entering with circle and elbow). Should we be surprised?

To Dana's point and drawing on chewy's scenario, the defender learns that this is a committed technique with a known path. If they actually leave the ground, their force trajectory is parabolic and they cannot change that while in mid air. And even with a skip that has extremely limited "hang time," you still are dealing with a linear force trajectory (when viewed from above). The best response then is some variation on the theme of the bull and the toreador.

And it will teach you what NOT to do against the charging bull...

On to the Karate Kid crane technique...

I've studied Goju (nidan), and can tell you that the movies drew heavily from that style. The form in fact that they were doing in the second movie was Seiunchin, which is one of the Goju classical (as opposed to instructional) forms.

The crane is done in a later kata. Indeed they do this "wing out" crane technique, which is different from the way we do crane in Uechi Seisan. And I've got to tell you that the garden variety interpretations of the movement have absolutely nothing to do with doing jump kicks.

But it did look cool seeing him do that on a pole at the beach, no? I guess we call aspects of that movie "cinematic license."

Good point though about the kicking movement being the same. I just would never do that with "wings out."

- Bill

[Mills75]

I see your points guy good stuff...no disrespect with the karate kid stuff just having some fun with it is all too so you all know. i'm sure if done correctly as you state it can put someone into a bad state of hurt so I don't know I wouldn't want to do it personally however i'm sure like everything it has it's time and place...who knows i'm a beginner so i'm just watching and absorbing and seeing what's out there..thanks guys...