I read another thread that made me think about and brought this thought to my attention..in the forums opinion is it ok to talk specifically about martial arts techniques or show how they are done? In another thread on Aikido i was reading on the forums of it's guidelines it says that it may not be good to discuss such things because hoodlum types may try them out on innocent people..and there are videotapes and books and such things out there so I don't know what do you think? Is there a certain level that can be discussed or is all of it ok to reveal just curious how people feel about it? another thing to just go a bit further than what I read and just questioned I would also like to know.do you feel martial arts is a personal thing between student and teacher or would you put out books or tapes and feel good about having it out there for the general public? just curious..
i'll offer my thoughts also here and I feel it's ok to talk about since there are already books and videos out there..but just personally if i was ever good enough to make a video instruction series or a book i would choose not to fearing someone who wasn't properly trained or supervised could try these things out recklessly..and also i feel in my view i would rather have an art between teacher and directly trained student..just how i feel..how do you feel?
talking about or displaying techniques ??
Moderator: Available
When I started training I was bursting to discuss it with anyone I could...but refrained. I was lucky to have a bud who trained ITF TaeKwonDo and was very enthusiastic about his training; he was a 1st Dan at the time and very skilled.
I would show him my newly-learned Uechi Ryu techniques, and a Kata, and he would give me his opinions.
He was very serious about his training and a good guy to boot. No harm was done, and good things happened from me sharing.
Sharing with (your word) "hoodlums" is another matter; I can't imagine a scenario where I would even enter a "sharing" discussion with such a type.
In fact, it's much better to keep your invisible weapons invisible around anyone who might benefit from the knowledge that you are developing them.
There are occasionally a few curious friends who know I train, and they do dumb stuff like jump out and scare me or "pretend attack" hoping to bait a response.
I laugh at the gag with them, but occasionally I will say "here, check this out: ok, punch low like an uppercut..." and show them a response...sometimes they stop and think "hmmm...not a bad idea."
This way they see the solid ideas in the training but no attitude except positive and sharing. This might someday lead them to a dojo.
But pretending to be some pompous know-it-all and strutting around like a peacock will just turn everyone around you off, and may in fact GET YOUR LIGHTS KNOCKED OUT.
I'm not saying you do this, but I have seen it. It's pathetic.
Share enthusiasm with friends, not power with strangers.
NM
I would show him my newly-learned Uechi Ryu techniques, and a Kata, and he would give me his opinions.
He was very serious about his training and a good guy to boot. No harm was done, and good things happened from me sharing.
Sharing with (your word) "hoodlums" is another matter; I can't imagine a scenario where I would even enter a "sharing" discussion with such a type.
In fact, it's much better to keep your invisible weapons invisible around anyone who might benefit from the knowledge that you are developing them.
There are occasionally a few curious friends who know I train, and they do dumb stuff like jump out and scare me or "pretend attack" hoping to bait a response.
I laugh at the gag with them, but occasionally I will say "here, check this out: ok, punch low like an uppercut..." and show them a response...sometimes they stop and think "hmmm...not a bad idea."
This way they see the solid ideas in the training but no attitude except positive and sharing. This might someday lead them to a dojo.
But pretending to be some pompous know-it-all and strutting around like a peacock will just turn everyone around you off, and may in fact GET YOUR LIGHTS KNOCKED OUT.
I'm not saying you do this, but I have seen it. It's pathetic.
Share enthusiasm with friends, not power with strangers.
NM
oh neil..
just to clarify what i was trying to get accross is i was wondering how any teacher and of course they wouldn't be hoodlums or act like hoodlums or condone hoodlums would feel if the info they taught fell into the wrong hands of a hoodlum and he ended up hurting someone..it was along this basis so please if you thought i was condoning hoodlums i'm sorry for the misinterpretation..I was asking how would any decent martial artist or respectable teacher or practicioner feel about one of his tapes or something along these lines was used in a violent way...
Jeff
Jeff-
I struggle with this myself.
We've all heard that PDoK (Public Display of Karate) is bad. On the other hand, to many of us, karate or martial arts are a significant and influential part of our lives.
Do my musician friends refrain from humming in public? Do my model friend intentionally make ugly
in public? Do my scholar friends talk stupid in public?
No, by the way, is the answer to most of these questions
So why should I hide away the thing that I love?
I am stuggling in particular with this issue RIGHT NOW AT THIS MINUTE.
I am competing this weekend in a tournement. What I really want to do right now is, during my lunch break, go practice the kata I intend to show. But to do that, I need to go outside....IN PUBLIC. AHHHHH! NoNONONONO! YOU MUST NOT! NEVER NO!
Isn't this one of Uechi Kanei's precepts, "I will not display my karate in public?"
Damn!
There are times when I learn a differnet interpretation for a move, times that I want to show a friend. But I always hesitate, always feel badly about doing so.
Like you, I am interested to hear how others feel. I hope they drop by and contribute.
DLF
I struggle with this myself.
We've all heard that PDoK (Public Display of Karate) is bad. On the other hand, to many of us, karate or martial arts are a significant and influential part of our lives.
Do my musician friends refrain from humming in public? Do my model friend intentionally make ugly
in public? Do my scholar friends talk stupid in public? No, by the way, is the answer to most of these questions
So why should I hide away the thing that I love?
I am stuggling in particular with this issue RIGHT NOW AT THIS MINUTE.
I am competing this weekend in a tournement. What I really want to do right now is, during my lunch break, go practice the kata I intend to show. But to do that, I need to go outside....IN PUBLIC. AHHHHH! NoNONONONO! YOU MUST NOT! NEVER NO!
Isn't this one of Uechi Kanei's precepts, "I will not display my karate in public?"
Damn!
There are times when I learn a differnet interpretation for a move, times that I want to show a friend. But I always hesitate, always feel badly about doing so.
Like you, I am interested to hear how others feel. I hope they drop by and contribute.
DLF
"The spirit is forged in the furnace of the will."
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
Yes Tokezu
even as somewhat of a beginner and a novice I'm very conflicted about how I feel about public displays.I did post one kata on the web that rick wilson was kind enough to host and that's probably the only time i will ever do it and since it's a kata i heard that kata is like a tool you have to unlock so it's like you would need the key or the bunkai to really know how it's meant to be used so i'm not too concerned with that thinking of it in the way i just mentioned but truly i would feel kind of guilty personally if i ever showed another person publicly so to speak without them being a trusted student and I think in the future I would not just a personal preference.I think your points are very vaild about models and so forth but i come back to the thinking that modeling or music though they may be just as loved as martial arts is to us those things don't really have the potential for others to use them to hurt another person so I'm not sure how to look at it..i won't show anyone anything in the future i know.i keep coming back to what you said about Kanei Uechi's precepts and I will follow that from now on personally..i just feel for some reason like i'd be doing wrong to the originators of the system if i shared it freely..so there is where i'm at now in the future when i gain knowledge it won't be shared unless it's a trusted student or family member..
Jeff
Not sure what the harm of a PDK really is. This day and age, the hoodlums have mac-10s, and if they have an interest in karate it'd be mostly to laugh I assume (not my crowd). Even in THAT day and age, all you need to do to cause trouble is to pick up a bat, or a kitchen knife, and you're more dangerous than most karate people after a couple years or two. A lot of karate people start out as regular joes and they have so much catching up to do as far as lethality goes compared to thugs. Thugs learn to fight on the street, they're usually not the meek, friendly, often under or overfed college students I once taught.
I just don't think they'll be spying on demos to learn attacks. Nor would I worry about videos and so on.
PDKs have some benefits too--they can help you recruit (speaking in terms of the asian arts festivals at college we livened up with some slam bam sanchin kitae and kata and our TKD colleagues delighted with some mock sparring and sai forms) and it's just plain nice to be outside sometimes. I'm always happy to see tai chi in a park or on a beach, for instance, and I can't, or won't, go a whole vacay without doing some karate.
Back at UVa, in the winters we'd sometimes do sanchin in the snow barefoot. I thought it was crazy, but I later received multiple emails from prior students glad the club was still there and remembering the snow forms as a highlight of their college days. We also had out-doors regional uechi meetings (one at uva with bill, raffi, a test, and many attendees) that resulted in little harm done.
My cautions would be more about parading home your karate attire in the wrong environs, or performing without discretion or in a showoffy fashion, because that DOES invite challenges and looks pompous too, and if there's any ever any question that you're around people of impure intentions, any martial arts skill you have should be outright concealed (ACT helpless if an attack is imminent to encourage a mistake if you can, unless there's a chance appearing confidant and capable will avert attack).
I just don't think they'll be spying on demos to learn attacks. Nor would I worry about videos and so on.
PDKs have some benefits too--they can help you recruit (speaking in terms of the asian arts festivals at college we livened up with some slam bam sanchin kitae and kata and our TKD colleagues delighted with some mock sparring and sai forms) and it's just plain nice to be outside sometimes. I'm always happy to see tai chi in a park or on a beach, for instance, and I can't, or won't, go a whole vacay without doing some karate.
Back at UVa, in the winters we'd sometimes do sanchin in the snow barefoot. I thought it was crazy, but I later received multiple emails from prior students glad the club was still there and remembering the snow forms as a highlight of their college days. We also had out-doors regional uechi meetings (one at uva with bill, raffi, a test, and many attendees) that resulted in little harm done.
My cautions would be more about parading home your karate attire in the wrong environs, or performing without discretion or in a showoffy fashion, because that DOES invite challenges and looks pompous too, and if there's any ever any question that you're around people of impure intentions, any martial arts skill you have should be outright concealed (ACT helpless if an attack is imminent to encourage a mistake if you can, unless there's a chance appearing confidant and capable will avert attack).
--Ian
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Tom Faigle
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
Interesting thread. I personally don't think someone can learn too much from watching a few minutes but maybe I'm wrong. But I also limit what I show to close friends. But, I wonder what an instructor's (or even a senior student's) responsibility is concerning someone in the dojo who is associated with bad elements. Say what would you do if you knew someone in the dojo was either in a gang, associating with gang members or thinking about joining one. Is it right to let your Sensei know, or let him or her find out on their own?
alot of good things..
alot of good things talked about here with great viewpoints on them all..As Ian said about thugs I agree that a baseball bat or a gun and street fighting knowledge is in their tool box already so I agree with that and also I agree one should in my humble opinion not flaunt his or her karate and I personally don't wear my uniform around or wear it to and from school I change in our locker room before and after class.good stuff to ponder..I'm a novice but as Tom said i would be seriously concerned about a possible member of the dojo being affiliated with gangs I think that would considerably conflict with the goals and spirit of karate and in my opinion I would not want anything even close to that in the dojo so I hope they find a good way to weed that person out if that is his or her intentions for their martial arts. I don't know I really don't think they can gather much from public displays either but from now on I'm still going to keep mine a personal thing that i practice behind closed doors.
and I have to say i agreed with most of what Ian said but I also think there are some who already come into to karate with good strength and some prior real world skills that almost put them ahead of the curve instead of behind the eight ball..I know there are some folks who have higher ranks on their belt but i have witnessed some lower ranking individuals who I truly believe would feed them those belts so i really think it depends on the person..just pointing out there are some who work harder and take things more seriously than some at higher ranks and even though it's rare there are some i believe anyway..so who knows but it's a good talk with alot of great points..
lets be honest not to downgrade anyone but i'm sure you guys have seen at your dojo the guys who you know have had some scrapes before and have been in weight rooms and played sports before who want to add karate to their list cause they love it and they come in to it pretty well ready and then there are some who come because they have no background and very little real world knowledge if anything they really want to gain confidence and learn..both reasons for coming into the dojo are valid and good ones but we know who is who coming in..
petty example here...- the guy who worked in factories and wasn't handed everything by his folks and walked on the streets talked about alot...or the guy who is the preppy type who was handed everything who heard about the streets the other guy lives on lol..ya know what i mean lol...
and I have to say i agreed with most of what Ian said but I also think there are some who already come into to karate with good strength and some prior real world skills that almost put them ahead of the curve instead of behind the eight ball..I know there are some folks who have higher ranks on their belt but i have witnessed some lower ranking individuals who I truly believe would feed them those belts so i really think it depends on the person..just pointing out there are some who work harder and take things more seriously than some at higher ranks and even though it's rare there are some i believe anyway..so who knows but it's a good talk with alot of great points..
lets be honest not to downgrade anyone but i'm sure you guys have seen at your dojo the guys who you know have had some scrapes before and have been in weight rooms and played sports before who want to add karate to their list cause they love it and they come in to it pretty well ready and then there are some who come because they have no background and very little real world knowledge if anything they really want to gain confidence and learn..both reasons for coming into the dojo are valid and good ones but we know who is who coming in..
petty example here...- the guy who worked in factories and wasn't handed everything by his folks and walked on the streets talked about alot...or the guy who is the preppy type who was handed everything who heard about the streets the other guy lives on lol..ya know what i mean lol...
Jeff
Jeff,
Ha! You ask if showing modeling poses and showing kata are the same? I knew someone would pick that up!
Good on ya! I kinda dangled that out there as bait.
No, the potential impact of the SHOWING may not be the same. On the other hand, I am not convinced that showing a move here or a kata there to a friend in their back yard is so bad. Like Tom said, I am not sure what some untrained person can learn from a single demo. Heck, I still don't understand HALF of what I think I might be starting to understand!
Also- I would be very careful choosing to whom I would show something anyway. That is a real duhhhhh.
Thanks!
DLF!
!
Ha! You ask if showing modeling poses and showing kata are the same? I knew someone would pick that up!
Good on ya! I kinda dangled that out there as bait.
No, the potential impact of the SHOWING may not be the same. On the other hand, I am not convinced that showing a move here or a kata there to a friend in their back yard is so bad. Like Tom said, I am not sure what some untrained person can learn from a single demo. Heck, I still don't understand HALF of what I think I might be starting to understand!
Also- I would be very careful choosing to whom I would show something anyway. That is a real duhhhhh.
Thanks!
DLF!
!
"The spirit is forged in the furnace of the will."
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
Tom-
I have pondered this a few times with regard to certain folks that have come through the various dojo with which I have been associated over the decades.
For me, this is not even a karate issue; it is an issue of personal ethics. So my personal answer is as follows.
I would not hesitate to speak with my Sensei about this. However, I would be very careful to speak only of my observations of behavior and of MY concerns. FACTS only! I would seek to avoid both legal and ethical liable. (so to speak)
I think Sensei has a right to know.
Nice Question!
DLF
Wow! This almost deserves it's own thread. Good job!Say what would you do if you knew someone in the dojo was either in a gang, associating with gang members or thinking about joining one. Is it right to let your Sensei know, or let him or her find out on their own
I have pondered this a few times with regard to certain folks that have come through the various dojo with which I have been associated over the decades.
For me, this is not even a karate issue; it is an issue of personal ethics. So my personal answer is as follows.
I would not hesitate to speak with my Sensei about this. However, I would be very careful to speak only of my observations of behavior and of MY concerns. FACTS only! I would seek to avoid both legal and ethical liable. (so to speak)
I think Sensei has a right to know.
Nice Question!
DLF
"The spirit is forged in the furnace of the will."
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
-- Dr. Klan, Fist Full of Yen
The video katas posted are of such poor video quality I wouldn't be too concerned about sowing the seeds of WMD.
I'm a Uechi-Ka, and I can hardly discern the form of the best of those posted. Hard to imagine an evil neophyte extracting any killer techniques from them.If "they" think these are Uechi techniques, then download-away!
They'd be better off watching ReBoot.
Internet video has a LONG way to go.
NM
I'm a Uechi-Ka, and I can hardly discern the form of the best of those posted. Hard to imagine an evil neophyte extracting any killer techniques from them.If "they" think these are Uechi techniques, then download-away!
They'd be better off watching ReBoot.
Internet video has a LONG way to go.
NM
