Karate vs Kungfu

[Glenn]

For anyone not bored to death, my intial assessment of the differences can be found on my website www.funkydragon.com/bushi

Thanks Victor, for what you took time to post here and for the link. I'm very interested in the Bubishi as a historic document and will definitely check out your site.

[Dana Sheets]

I like this part (not Bubishi related)

Ni Dan Training and San Dan training are life time commitments. In actuality the course content may parallel each other, depending on the training cycle being taught. The difference is the San Dan, must continue the lifetime goal of Ni Dan training as well as strive for the greater commitment to the art than their own personal training.

Instructor Training Minimium requirements are 15 years of continious training under a Bushin No Te Instructor, Being actively in San Dan ongoing lifetime training.

Master Qualifications Death and the passage of 25 years. If anyone still remembers your name in connection with your art, you've qualified.

Grand Master Qualification Death and the passage of 50 years. Ditto in the Master Qualifications.

[Victor]

Hi Dana,

You know even more interesting than the words is actually using that as the basis for our long term program.

When I was thrust into ShoDan over a quarter century ago I was unprepared to be on my own in NE Penna. There was no Isshinryu around (in close proximity or in 'friendly proximity too') and I had to think long and hard about what I wanted to do. Teaching for free at the Scranton Boys Club, to remain in Isshinryu, and traveling, seeking the best instruction I could find (and I doubt I was ever worth it on my own), I came to realize what fascinated me was the idea of what Karate was 100+ years ago. Literally undocumented, small and very personal.

When I moved to Derry, NH 20 years ago and started a new program at the Boys and Girls Club, and also started a smaller adult program, I kept the focus on keeping it small. My adults all had to be drug into thei dan examination, they only wanted to train, and my analysis of what a long term student was (as I've described it in your quote) is what I've found in reality. They have never been intersted in dan grade, and thought my idea made sense.

Though I have grade from my instructors, in my program none of us do anything but train and I do my best to try and keep things interesting.
After all who needs grade in a dojo, we're there to train, work, and learn, and we have little outside interaction.

What I have found afer 15-20 years, in the 50's and 60's people do move on. I'm grateful for the time we spent together, and only the instructors (and or 3rd dan types still keep going forward). For it's where their interest is.

Keeping a very small old style program ,I can see how things do die out. It's a natural function. While I do one or two clinics a year at personal friends dojo, i'm only intersted in those with long term focus in our training, and having too much experience, i keep trying to learn more about our art, with some small success perhaps.

Actually there is another level, the Possessed Level, such as me, who's almost every waking (and unconscious) minute is possed with study and learning and most of never to be passed along.

Heck the tinyest example is I've studied several hundred forms in part, and have so many favorites I can't teach because nobody has enough time. But one of my instructors keeps encouraging me, that what's important isnt' what you do, or what you know, but what you keep learning.

I truly believe many of you here, in your group will understand this, but the learning never stops. I've been doing Yang and Yang Sword for 27 years and only the last year have I come to realize the real importance in the sword to inrease the body potential in alignment, etc. And now when I'm declining (grace fully of course). COurse if my instructor was living near me I'm sure I would have gotten it much faster with his skill (perhaps only taking 24 1/2 years), and currently I'm possessed at the real value of kobudo, to not just increase the power of the limb, but to be able to shape the rolling motion of the hands with the weapons into the actual rolling motion of empty hand application for maximum result. Where my many years of tai chi have given me some hand rotation sensitivity, I'm seeing how long term kobudo can be used to shape the empty hand use the same way.

This is why I keep looking at the Bubishi, not as a super secret source book, though I do think there are some things of merit in it, but to keep trying to understand where it may have actually had an impact on the Okinawan arts, outside of being there.

Perhaps a question, that extremely large Japanese Ueichi book ( which I turned down a friends request to bring me from Japan last years as I can't read it), does it reference the Bubishi in it and if so to what extent?

I'm not questing for secrets, just trying to understand the scope of where it turns up.

Well see what happens when I get on a roll?

[jorvik]

Well titles and years training don't mean a thing when you realise that a kid with 6 months in a Muy Thai Gym could destroy most black-belts masters etc
.or boxers or wrestlers could do the same...and yeah sure there is a spiritual side to all this...and part of it is the humility of knowing that it's true and to set yourself realistic expectation of your art............doing a beautiful kata is one thing, fighting in a ring is another and fighting on the street is another.......there is some crossover in the last two...but none in the first ..........live with it, or learn to die

[MikeK]

Well thank you Captain Sunshine!

[jorvik]

Hi Mike
Just taking a reality check

[Bill Glasheen]

a kid with 6 months in a Muy Thai Gym could destroy most black-belts masters etc

Why do people say stuff like this? Just when we've put the myth of the immortal martial arts master to rest, new myths pop up like a bad case of acne.

I've been in boxing gyms and Muay Thai gyms as well, jorvik. What I saw were normal human beings doing their thing, just like in any other martial art venue. Some were good, and most sucked.

You want to hear something funny? When I trained with The Charlottesville Boxing Club in the 1970s, the boxers there were terrified of me. I was "the karate guy" who could "destroy most boxers." I had a difficult time finding people who would spar with me.

Every time I hear someone say something like this, it reminds me of some of the other "uninformed" things people used to say and think, like how Asians were better at martial arts than non-Asians, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Sigh...

- Bill

[jorvik]

Sorry Bill
but I have seen this happen .......I'll tell you another funny tale.
Years ago I went to watch a Kung-Fu exhibition..........I couldn't find the venue, but knew it was at the University, while wandering around I saw a group of chinese, at their centre was a guy in a full kung fu outfit they were all marching purposefully so I followed them ( they were so tiny it looked like a gang of hobbits marching to Rivendale).
Sure enough yer man was the guy doing the demo...........and he was very good he did a marvellous form ( hung-gar)......then it came to the sparring competition, full contact no less ............and he was drawn with a rank beginner, who was quite a bit taller.........anyway the beginner knew he couldn't fight the chinese sifu on his own terms so he boxed ...............and he knocked the little guy from one end of the hall to the other .
the point is how you train.
My boxer friends would go on a 5 mile run, then they'd train properly and it would be 3 minute rounds on various bags,skipping,shadow boxing etc.................after a couple of months they were "fighting fit".....my karate friends even at black belt would struggle to do 50 pushups............and here is the really sad thing.
A champion boxer will tell you that he used to be a champion, whereas a shodan who has n't "trained" in years ( ......and I don't mean putting on his pyjamas and shouting out for other folks to do stuff) will still tell you that he is a blackbelt.

this is why I don't like all these myths about "Masters".......Heck I could say that I was a black belt in Aikido ( ...and by the way this is the first time I've mentioned a grade on any of my posts.ever).....but I no longer do Aiki, so that black belt doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest]

You want to hear something funny? When I trained with The Charlottesville Boxing Club in the 1970s, the boxers there were terrified of me. I was "the karate guy" who could "destroy most boxers." I had a difficult time finding people who would spar with me.

HAH HAH! Unfortunatley, thats not the case where I train at. These guys can't wait for me to get my endurance back up to par so i can get in the ring with them.

Couple more months and I should be ready to do some sparring...

I'll let you know how the karate guy does against these 18 year olds!

[Dana Sheets]

Tony - you figured our how to throw a boshiken with your boxing glove yet? They won't see that one coming...

[JimHawkins]

You want to hear something funny? When I trained with The Charlottesville Boxing Club in the 1970s, the boxers there were terrified of me. I was "the karate guy" who could "destroy most boxers." I had a difficult time finding people who would spar with me.

Not surprising in the least.

This is when the myth of Asian Arts being 'sooo deadly' was still in full effect... This has changed quite a bit since then as Tony has also indicated by the reaction of his now boxing peers.. I constantly find folks now who think of Boxing or similar arts as ‘true’ martial art and use those arts as the yard stick to measure effectiveness. I am one of these people.. When you want to see if something works.. I say try it on a boxer.

Reality fighting venues have debunked much of traditional training and folks nowadays are spending more time testing and verifying 'deadly arts' by actually trying to fight with them. If it doesn't work in the ring - name your venue, well, it doesn't work.. Scary no?

This IMO is the beginning of a new re-birth of martial art, where from here on out it better be real, or else it's going to get relegated to Lotus Land.

I'm with Jorvik for the most part on the boxing/kickboxing thing. Most boxers KBs, MT, etc will blow down the typical shodan like a hurricane blows down a tent...

There are a lot of reasons for this but here are two:

1. All boxers, KBs, MT folks want to fight that's why they are there, not to learn why master so and so puts his pinky in a certain place in his kata, not to experience enlightenment, not to feel cool in a nicely pressed uniform, not to 'search through kata' for long lost secrets, not to preserve someone's idea of an 'art form', but rather, to fight.. Scary no?

2. All boxers, KBs, MT folks actually do fight.. It's the main focus of what they do... They use the fighter's method of training, which means that they discover what works or not in fighting... This is key.

[benzocaine]

All boxers, KBs, MT folks want to fight that's why they are there, not to learn why master so and so puts his pinky in a certain place in his kata, not to experience enlightenment, not to feel cool in a nicely pressed uniform, not to 'search through kata' for long lost secrets, not to preserve someone's idea of an 'art form', but rather, to fight.. Scary no?

Lots to chew on there Jim.

I think a lot in that statement could be transfered into Dana's What makes a shodan thread. Or even more.. what is the real reason for having a BB?

[Guest]

Tony - you figured our how to throw a boshiken with your boxing glove yet? They won't see that one coming...

Actually, they probably will as it's pretty much an uppercut as it's practiced in the kata.

Can't wait to start sparring though! I'm up to 2-miles on my morning run. Once I get to 3, i'm gonna really start pushing it. Although I can probably take alot of physical abuse, I don't think I could finish a single 3-minute round without puking or at the worst, a heart attack.

Theres a good question for a thread, what are Uechi Ryu dojos doing for endurance training? Jumping Rope? Jogging? I wonder because in just about every class i've been in, the work load has been stop-go-stop-go... do some kata, have a thumb check, some more kata, toe point test, listen to acedemic Uechi... etc.

[gmattson]

Tony.... The "FireDragon" test at camp should prove interesting. A three mile run happens to be part of the test. I created this test because it is true, there is very little endurance work in a typical Uechi workout and I really believe not much chance at lasting 15 seconds for many martial artists, in a real confrontation.

We hear so much about the "secret" Killer techniques, but nothing about plain 'ol physical conditioning. The new IUKF board of directors suggested that a physical conditioning requirement be made part of the dan test and boy did that meet with stiff resistance from the group.

So instead, we now have a special club for those who can prove they are in superb physical condition as well as be able to kick and punch.

Bill Glasheen is working on the actual test, with reduced requirements or longer time periods based on age. Hey Bill.... when will you have the test makeup???

And thanks to Fred Channel, who volunteered to become the administer of this program.

[kempo-jujitsu]

hi everyone,
i think there is also a difference between okinawan karate, and japanese karate, i didnt read every single post, but i didnt see anyone take up this topic. shotokan is much more linear, than goju or uechi ryu for example.

and referring to japanese arts (again a broad generalization) as linear...is obviously made by someone who has never practiced jujutsu, or aikido. it is anything but linear.
in classical warfare japanese used jujutsu, kenjutsu, kyujutsu etc..not karate. on the other hand okinawan karate was used in actual warfare...it was introduced to japan later. so many believe that the japanese styles arent "true" karate. and this may have been done intentionally. i wasnt there myself so i dont pretend to know the truth.

as for the boxing, mt, kickboxing/ vs traditional thing. i like both, which is better?...who is to say? but i think half the reason a boxer could beat a karateke, is his rules negate most of the karateka's techniques.

simelarly, sure a thai fighter can beat a grappler,...in a thai ring, because grappling is not allowed. also a grappler can beat a thai fighter on the ground because he doesnt know how to grapple.

i think is boils down to how the arts are taught, most karate schools (especially tkd) are sport oriented now days, and i think this is where many misconceptions come from about karate.

if you want a truer test, it is in a literally no holds barred situation...then again...maybe its not the style...i believe the style is only as good as the one using it.
i know karateka who can whip my butt, i know mmatists who can whip my butt....i learn from them all.
i am not training to fight a thai fighter, or a karateka, or a kung fu guy...as...no art can guarantee you will win against anyone, only raise your chances, so you should concentrate not on beating others, but improving yourself, because in that endeavor you will always be successful. and as joe lewis said, any well trained fighter of any art should have no problem beating the average attacker. the important thing is that you are learning and having fun, if it works for you...then do that.

on kata, i am not a huge fan of kata, no it will not teach you to fight, that is where sparring/kumite comes into play, kata will teach principles and techniques, and a deeper understanding of how to use them. now go make it work in sparring/self defense situations. kata is like a toolbox, if you have a job to do and do not have the right tool, go get it.