Who are the Students? And what do they want?

[Guest]

There seems to be a holy, unquestioned assumption around this table that most new students take karate for self defense purposes. This unsupported foundation leads to all sorts of challenges to TMA programs as being unsuitable for street confrontations and for being rigidly structured and unwilling to adapt to what is preceived to be the best methods to protect one's self in these violent situations.

Hello .... aren't the forebodings being skewed to support the points of view of these ready able-bodied fighters who are arguing for their selfish interests?

IMO most of the new karate students are children whose tuition is paid by their parents and it's these fees that pay the rent, keep the lights on and the liability insurance premiums current for dojo owners.

Self-defense for kids is something like:

1. Stay out of those places where children are acousted if you're alone.
2. Don't let anyone outside of the family touch you.
3. Yell and scream and make a scene if you're threatened.

What parent's pay for isn't primarily self-defense. Parents want and the kids want the character issues, the self-development potentials, the health and exercise benefits of karate. They are interested in courtesy, self-discipline, accountability and leadership. Going to karate class is fun!

When the parents see their children benefit and progress they often enroll, too.

Besides, who are the assailants? Indigent transients seeking drug money or some cash for booze? Some unforsaken individual with bi-polar disorder or a vet suffering from a deja-vu panic attack? These are individuals who need shelter, food, therapy and medical attention. If you beat the pulp out of them you will end up in jail.

[MikeK]

There seems to be a holy, unquestioned assumption around this table that most new students take karate for self defense purposes. This unsupported foundation leads to all sorts of challenges to TMA programs as being unsuitable for street confrontations and for being rigidly structured and unwilling to adapt to what is preceived to be the best methods to protect one's self in these violent situations.

John, I agree with you that it's kids who float the karate boat these days and IMO for the most part it's creating a different form of karate that is more focused on being family friendly. I remember back before the kid explosion the average adult took a martial art for self defense or love of fighting with the extra benefits discovered later, and many times keeping the person into the art.

Self-defense for kids is something like:

1. Stay out of those places where children are acousted if you're alone.
2. Don't let anyone outside of the family touch you.
3. Yell and scream and make a scene if you're threatened.

I follow those same rules for me.

What parent's pay for isn't primarily self-defense. Parents want and the kids want the character issues, the self-development potentials, the health and exercise benefits of karate. They are interested in courtesy, self-discipline, accountability and leadership. Going to karate class is fun!

That's why I have my kids in Scouting and not karate class. I don't know about the health and excercise benefits argument always being valid.

[Guest]

vet suffering from a deja-vu panic attack?

Is this an actual medical condition? Can you site references? If you're poking fun at PTSD, well.. that is not funny.

Not in the least.

[benzocaine]

John, I agree with you that it's kids who float the karate boat these days and IMO for the most part it's killing karate.

Amen brother!

God forbid we actually *gasp* show something that could maim or kill a person.. the %^$& 14 YO ADD kid in the adult class may use it in school. Or the parents may not approve of such violence.. no lets train for the tourney

But I digress

[MikeK]

Ben, I'm going to change it from "killing karate" to "changing it into a different form of karate" which is what I meant. For the record I strongly believe that a child has no reason to know how to maim or kill someone. I also don't have a real problem with someone teaching kids if that's what they want to do. If you're going to run a business you should pick your what kind of customers you want and cater to them.

[Guest]

Besides, who are the assailants? Indigent transients seeking drug money or some cash for booze? Some unforsaken individual with bi-polar disorder or a vet suffering from a deja-vu panic attack? These are individuals who need shelter, food, therapy and medical attention.

Then John sez:

If you beat the pulp out of them you will end up in jail.

John, in our state you don't have to tolerate BS from anyone anymore. Come October, if someone threatens you, You can legally use your Uechi Ryu Karate to strike them down! You will also have the option of using deadly force with a firearm, much as you do now in your own home.

No longer will you have to tolerate opinions from Veterans suffering from PTSD (or Deja-Vu Relapse or whatever it is you called it), if you feel threatened by them, you can take them out!

[benzocaine]

It is a free market society. If you do not like the H2O'd version of our style.. move on. Or tolerate the H2O'd version and train the nasty stuff on your own.

[TheGreatWhiteBuffalo]

I started taking karate purely for the exercise. And it was something I always wanted to do as a kid but my parents wouldnt let me(cheap skates), but once I started, I really enjoyed the physical contact element of it. What can I say, I love contact sports. Do most teachers find teching kids rewarding or a waste of time? just curious

[Rick Wilson]

“There seems to be a holy, unquestioned assumption around this table that most new students take karate for self defense purposes.”

Interesting that if you read martial arts adds they seem to always include self defence?

Now the question becomes “If you advertise it do you teach it?”

Have you poled your student base?

Have you asked the parents of those kids if they expect their karate student child to be able to defend themselves?

I am not saying you are wrong; just want to know if the students in your school do not expect to be able to defend themselves.

If they do then there is an obligation on the part of the school to teach it.

(And again I have no idea about the school you are in – it may teach the best self defence there is for all I know, so please I am not saying “your” school does not teach self defence.)

I also rankle a little with the TMA thing because I am a Uechika through and through and I feel I am taking a very traditional approach to martial arts training.

However, my approach to training is probably different (please note the word is different – no claim to being better) than 99% of the Uechi schools out there.

I do teach kids self defence in what is appropriate for kids.

I do NOT teach kids and adults together.

I had a child student defend himself the other day in a manner I felt did HIM proud.

My student and four others were riding bikes at a sand pit.

Twelve other kids there as well.

One of my student’s friends gets into a little argument one of the group of twelve.

The group of twelve want to fight the group of five (actually not all the group of twelve really wanted to fight but they are caught up in the mob mentality.)

My students says let's leave and they try to ride away.

The twelve circle the group and “trap” my student and two others.

The friend of my student who “started” things is outside the circle with a much younger child. My student tells him to take the younger kid home.

One of the group of twelve says since he is gone my student (the smallest of the remaining three) has to fight instead.

In fact he has to fight this guy about three feet taller than my student.

My student says he did not want to fight but if he had to fight anyone he was going to fight YOU (the one of the twelve with the mouth.)

The mouth still being about a head and half taller than my student agrees.

My students friends start to say watch out he is almost a black belt (my student tells them to shut up.)

The mouth guy says well come on fight.

My student says – I don’t want to fight so I am not starting anything.

The mouth throws a hook punch at my student followed by another one.

My student stepped in and blocked the first one but too high on the arm and got clipped but did not stop moving in, he intercepted the second punch and then threw an upper cut strike (from Kanshiwa Kata in the manner we do it) toward the mouth’s sloar plexus but missed and caught him under the jaw. He continued the movement into that nice Seichin move that is used as a great take down pining the mouth’s head to the ground and trapping a limb. This left the mouth open to a few shots to the ribs to let him know that he was “beat.”

My student let him go and said that was it – it was over. He got on his bike and the group of twelve parted and he and his friends left.

The mouth gets up off the ground shouting that he won the fight because of the mark on my student’s face.

My student does not respond to this and leaves the area safely with his friends.

The strategy he has learned in a group situation is to try and escape first – which he tried. If that is unsuccessful then try to single out the mouth and focus on him.

He is trained to keep going even if hit and to finish the fight but not beyond what is necessary.

He is train to ignore the “face saving” comments that may be used and to clear the area.

This story is not meant to say “hey look at my school.” This could have gone badly too.

All I am trying to do here is to show that kids can be taught proper self protection and they can need it.

Do the parents of your child students expect them to be able to defend themselves?

Not disputing that they want character development.

[MikeK]

Well done Rick, something for both of you to be proud of.

[JimHawkins]

Good topics.. Keep 'em coming!!!! Very instructive...

There seems to be a holy, unquestioned assumption around this table that most new students take karate for self defense purposes.

Well, I, commented recently that most adults, more than will admit, are taking MA for SD reasons... I contend this to be quite true and to think otherwise IMO is counter productive. The idea that folks are investing time and money into a Martial art should give a clue.. And if the Sensei these folks initially talk to downplays the importance of SD then you should expect many folks to go along with what you 'spin' for them, many don't know any better.

Self-defense for kids is something like:

1. Stay out of those places where children are accosted if you're alone.

Sadly, for many kids this kind of 'place' is where they go to school or where many kids 'hang out.' That's reality...

2. Don't let anyone outside of the family touch you.

Hmmm, and how do you propose they STOP someone from touching them? Sounds like they may need to learn some SD to enforce this 'rule.'

3. Yell and scream and make a scene if you're threatened.

Sounds good but to a kid this is a sure fire way to get your butt kicked while being humiliated... This alone is not enough...

If I had a child I would certainly give them any and all tools to help them when they are ALONE without quality adult protection, and very much at the mercy of this insane place we call life...

Martial arts are for MARTIAL... A dojo without the Martial is a Dan........ummm, is not a Martial Art School.

[Guest]

Let's backup and clarify. If there's any possibility that a word or statement will be misinterpreted it happens on this forum and the major malady is topic drift.

If adults can't read and follow simple communications how the hell do you expect kids to make difficult decisions involving sensitive situations?

Anybody outside of the family touching a kid doesn't mean roughousing the kid. It means like youth ministers, counselors, priests and teachers foundling the child and/or having sexual relations with the child. That's being accousted. I am talking about serious stuff and not playground scuffles.

Originally posted by John Giacoletti
2. Don't let anyone outside of the family touch you.

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Hmmm, and how do you propose they STOP someone from touching them? Sounds like they may need to learn some SD to enforce this 'rule.'


quote:
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Originally posted by John Giacoletti
3. Yell and scream and make a scene if you're threatened.

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Sounds good but to a kid this is a sure fire way to get your butt kicked while being humiliated... This alone is not enough...

I believe that traditionally the practice was that weapon instruction was not available to those under the shodan level. We teach kids weapons ... nunchuku, sai and bo. That's martial. We do not teach children how to hurt other persons with these weapons. There's plenty of time once the kids reach shodan level that they can begin picking up self-defense skills and their applications. Same with karate. Kicking, punching, blocking are martial skills. Kids don't have to learn it all at once. There is a developmental process here, physically and mentally involving motor skills and coordination. Younger children aren't ready to apply self defense skills until they have the mental and physical maturity and aptitude to discern what is appropriate. When they reach an appropriate level of maturity they can learn self defense applications.

Until then, if somebody touches their private parts, they can slap the person's hand and protest and if it continues they clear out and report the offense.

The Sensei runs the dojo and he runs it with consistency. He does not want five different instructors giving kids five different interpretations of what to do in a given situation. So you stick with what I've gone over. Avoid being in areas where trouble often happens. Don't let other persons put their hands on you. Get out of the way and make a scene if trouble persists.

[JimHawkins]

If adults can't read and follow simple communications how the hell do you expect kids to make difficult decisions involving sensitive situations?

Most read and did follow your assertions John.

Point 1:

There seems to be a holy, unquestioned assumption around this table that most new students take karate for self defense purposes.

They do.. Folks who show up at a dojo, or a Martial Art School have normally made a serious choice to train for self defense. They can read the sign there that says Martial Art X. It's like flowers... Folks who want to buy flowers go to a flower shop...or florist, it's really that simple for most folks over the age of 18, except that walking into a dojo is one hell of a bigger decision and is often spurred by some life changing event..

Point 2:

This unsupported foundation..

This contention is supported by common sense, and the responses of long time MAs like those on this thread. Martial means Martial, the public does understand that Karate, Kung-Fu, you name it, is a self defense/combat study, in fact to the uninitiated, unfamiliar with all of the Lotus nuances, this is all it is, with the exception of those parents who also want their child to get some "discipline" the other sales buzzword that permeates the media as a selling point to parents for their kids.

There are a myriad of other choices of recreation and study that folks can choose over MAs so when they show up at your dojo they are their to study that which is advertised.


Point 3:

leads to all sorts of challenges to TMA programs as being unsuitable for street confrontations and for being rigidly structured and unwilling to adapt to what is perceived to be the best methods to protect one's self in these violent situations.

If the truth hurts you will feel the pain.

‘Challenges,’ like the discussions that go on here of comparing and debating how to best train for self defense? Or am I missing some challenge matches being conducted?

Yes, MA folks here will continue to debate and discuss what they and we feel are important training attributes and methods. Those folks interested in continuing to develop their ability to teach and learn are grateful for these discussions, those who are not, are probably not interested in broadening their understanding, of what is what with respect to training and teaching self defense.

Others, who feel threatened by these discussions will be insulted and accuse those who disagree of having less than honorable motives, or worse having ulterior motives including intent to disparage or bolster their own enrollment. Indeed if anything is unfounded and inappropriate it is making insulting statements based on what you perceive as someone else's state of mind..

Point 4:

Anybody outside of the family touching a kid doesn't mean roughhousing the kid. It means like youth ministers, counselors, priests and teachers foundling the child and/or having sexual relations with the child. That's being accosted. I am talking about serious stuff and not playground scuffles.

So for the really ‘serious stuff’ the best you can suggest is:

Until then, if somebody touches their private parts, they can slap the person's hand and protest and if it continues they clear out and report the offense.

What age children are we talking about ‘teaching’ and what are the goals of this training? I don’t know what neighborhood you live in or grew up in but I can tell you that there is no such thing as a non serious physical assault for anyone at any age. Kids in bad areas all over this country are severely beaten, stabbed, shot and even raped by other ‘kids.’ In the situation that Rick discussed there was the very real chance that the mob mentality could have turned real ugly and at times this stuff does and kids are killed or maimed. No, sir, there is no such thing as trivial violence and to teach otherwise to me is not realistic or responsible, especially in this day and age.

What’s important is to give all Martial students whatever tools are appropriate and needed to help give them the edge when the chips are down and no one who can protect them is around. To do any less is to betray the “trust “ the public places in the Martial Arts instructor…to do the level best he or she can to pass on survival tools to those to come and spend the money and sweat on the floor.

[Rick Wilson]

Hi John:

Just an aside: You should never feel "under the gun" when you have started a thread. Your posts will be the focus because -- you started the thread and invited the discussion.

"Younger children aren't ready to apply self defense skills until they have the mental and physical maturity and aptitude to discern what is appropriate."

I disagree with this comment or perhaps I should ask "how young" you are referring to.

As can be seen by my example kids can learn a great deal about self protection.

But let us take a step back to your original assertion about self protection.

I asked in my first post if the parents of the kids studying in your school expected their child to be able to protect himself (say in the situation I described). You may have not had time to check yet.

Let me also apply that same question to the adult students. Do they feel they are learnign how to defend themselves? Because they may (like one poster) have started to get fit but there are many ways to get fit -- they could have don Tae Bo but they chose your Sensei's school of Martial Arts. So regardless if they started to get fit -- did they choose MAs as a means to get fit because they could also learn to protect themelves?

And, again for the record, I frimly believe Uechi is an excellent method of self protection. I just may differ on how to use it than some. But -- but -- if you train to use it for self proteection honestly then it should be good training.

Is there any chance that the opinion that people are not in martial arts schools to learn how to defend themsleves may have lead to the opinion some TMA no longer teach self protection? Just a thought that if the purpose of a MA school (not saying yours John) is not teaching slef protection then may be the comment is generated by that approach.

Darn running out of time here at the liabrary have to close off -- more tonight.

[Guest]

Gents,

I couldn't disagree more. The last time I checked a dojo was a training hall and not a home in which the parents or custodial person should provide the guidance for their child in response to the confrontational situations that you bring up.

I believe you are interjecting yourself into a hornet's nest of personal, social and legal issue far beyond the domain of the dojo.

Even if you so should want, you do not have the authority to pull a Uechi Kanbun Sensei action on us and take responsibility for the death of an individual at the hands of your student.

As a dad, I never gave my son battle instructions. He started training in karate at age 10. In school, he was harassed by other kids because he got great grades. It wasn't long after he began karate that he was warming up in Phys. Ed and did several round house kicks, side kicks and front kicks. The warming up, that exhibition, was the only deterent he ever needed. End of harassment. End of story.

Master Guishi's main line of defense isn't confrontation. He feins that he's a weak, infirm old man .... and woe unto you if you cross the line. He'll be deep in your throat.