Results for FireDragon Fitness Test

[Bill Glasheen]

Let me encourage some feedback.

Look at the results I posted, for each category. Look at each and every one of them. You see the means. You see the spreads. You see the best and worst performances.

What would you like to see for "passing" in each of the categories? Or can you see a "max" for each of them that would be considered a 100% score, and everything less be a percentage of that? (This is what the Marines do on their 3 even test.) Or something else?

I have some data from the military to look at as well. Perhaps Rich can chime in here.

Do we create separate categories for men and women? Kids, adults, and more mature adults?

Think about that, and don't be afraid to volunteer. No suggestion is stupid in my view. I'll do what I do in the end. But I'd appreciate some input.

Now is your chance.

- Bill

[Fedele Cacia]

Congratulations CJG, I didn’t realize that you had achieved such a great score on the pull up bar.
You are being kind when you say that I need work on my stretching, in fact I ******, and I’m not ashamed to admit it, this is why I have a hard time to except that people would be embarrassed to have their results made public, we are what we are and we are all trying to test and improve ourselves side by side.

All the competitors are winners; we have already established that, the people that are two embarrassed to show what they have did not step up to the plate, I bet that if you called every one of the competitors; not one of them would object to posting there results.

I thought that this was just for fun, no prize money, no trophy, we all bust our asses for what, you did a great job Bill; and now are sucking all the fun out of it,


ALL CANDIDATES (N=23) (one candidate value rejected)

Mean ........ 51
Std Dev .... 20.73
Min .......... 14
Max ......... 124


MALES (N=17) (one candidate value rejected)

Mean ....... 55
Std Dev .... 20.23
Min .......... 28
Max ......... 124


FEMALES (N=6)

Mean ....... 40
Std Dev .... 19.02
Min .......... 14
Max ......... 70

Gem could not have put it better when he said, “I feel that the posted results of the test should be simpler to understand.” You are complicating things two much!


Respectfully
Fedele

[Glenn]

Look at the results I posted, for each category. Look at each and every one of them. You see the means. You see the spreads. You see the best and worst performances.

What would you like to see for "passing" in each of the categories? Or can you see a "max" for each of them that would be considered a 100% score, and everything less be a percentage of that? (This is what the Marines do on their 3 even test.) Or something else?
- Bill

Bill,

Is 24 enough of a sample to establish these benchmarks? Admittedly the sample is probably skewed with respect to the Uechi Ryu population as a whole, in that the majority of the participants were likely among the better conditioned for these types of exercises, but I still wonder if you have a sample size large enough to set benchmarks. In particular is the sample a large enough percentage of the total population?

I will point out that I say that as someone who worked with statistics in the social sciences, where sample sizes tended to be in the hundreds if not thousands. County level census data for example. Doing medical research, you probably have better experience with creating benchmarks from small sample sizes.

[CJG]

What you guys don't realize is that there is a bit of culling that goes on in martial arts classes. The only folks the size of Fedele and CJ that survive are the ones who are phenomenal. Otherwise they get bounced off the walls. The 200 pounders and above can get by for a long time getting pounded by average people.

What you guys don't realize is that Fedele dumped me on my head leaving only my bun to save me in our first class together. I never hit like a girl again. Aaaaaahhh, memories. Of course there are more details to the story, but it's most fun told like that.

Bill, I enjoyed the sai class and appreciate your feedback.

Lots of discussion on the pertinency and validity of fitness test scores. Next year you could ask people to indicate on their card whether or not their results can be published.

[RACastanet]

"I have some data from the military to look at as well. Perhaps Rich can chime in here."

Perhaps Drew is reading this and could comment as he is a battalion CO and has a large sample to refer to. Or Joe Pomfret.

As for PFT scores, they are in the file. Those that are first class know who they are. Those that are in the bottom, or below the minimums are sent to the 'pork chop platoon'... I mean the physical conditioning platoon. When assignments are being made, 1st class PFT is a really good thing to be.

For elite schools, such as the MCMAP trainer school, first class is a requirement to get into the course. To weed out anyone who has gotten sloppy since the last test on day one of the course you do the PFT. If you are not first class that day you pack up and leave on day 2.

The points are what they are though. If you score a perfect 300 or a really good 275 or an acceptable 200 they are what they are. Any CO can look at any PFT score and know immediately where this Marine stands.

As for scoring, the Marines have a high end requirement that results in a 100%, or 100 point score, for each event.

Take the run you did. Take the mean time, around a 9 minute mile, and assign an average score... say 85% or 85 points. It appears that a 6.5 minute mile will be just about the max anyone can be expected to do after the squats. I'd set the 100% level at 7 minutes minutes. That will be attainable for those in top shape.

The question is, do you also do like the Marines that sets a minumum thresh hold below which you get zero points. For instance, at any age, if you cannot run three miles under 33 minutes you get ZERO points.

The Marines are trying to weed out those that cannot keep up. We are trying to encourage fitness and participation so I'd recommend that individuals get some points just for showing up at each event... like the SATs. Try a pullup and you get 20 points. Finish the run and you get 20 points even if it takes forever. So, any mile slower than 15 minutes or something like that gets the minimum score.

On the mile, with 7 minutes being 100, and 15 20 points, you get 80 points to spread over 8 minutes. You could straight line the poins so each minute below a 15 minute mile gets you ten more points. You could fine tune it and give a point for each 6 seconds. Or reverse it and take off ten points for each minute over 7 minutes.

Maybe 60 squats is 100 points.

The Marine scoring chart is staight line above the minimum for crunches and pullups. For the run it is curved to favor speed. We could do that but I'd keep it simple.

Bottom line it would do you no good to do more than the max required in any event so you could conserve energy and do a better run. This would really reward those in stellar shape. Or maybe you add bonus points for Fedele's extra pullups to offset maybe a shorter broad jump. Lots of thing to consider.

Also, I'd keep the scoring the same for all ages and genders. Bill can eventually use data to determine where a fit 50 year old male should be on the total points scale, and on and on. A 21 year old should maybe score 450 out of 600. For a fifty year old maybe 350 is really good. Time will tell.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Glenn

No, I don't have enough data from 24 to set benchmarks. It's going to take these data (however imperfect), some observations of scaling from other exams (like the way the Marines scale theirs) and some SWAGing (SWAG = sophisticated wild-assed guess). So... you are seeing why I seek a little input.

I can be Ze Fhurer and tell you all the way it will be. Instead, I'm sharing some data and asking for thoughts from the smart people in the community. Hopefully this will create some idea of ownership to something that in my view is YOUR fitness test.

Fedele

Have faith, brother. I've been doing these things for a while. We will get there.

You folks see finished products, but you don't always appreciate the process it takes to get there. You are seeing - and getting a chance to be a part of - the process. Whether you realize it or not, this is pretty much state-of-the-art for what we are trying to do. Being on the bleeding edge means it takes a little bit of extra work.

Someone once said that nobody should ever see laws and sausages being made. Science can be that way as well. But we all love the end result, and it often is treated like it came down from The Mountain. It didn't.

Some of the "research" I want to do here will be designed both to help improve the test (if it needs it) and to tell people what matters. I already have some thoughts, which is why I asked for some of the data that I did. This research will be ongoing, and will extend far after this iteration of the test.

Rich

I hear you. I'm thinking you and I should get together to bounce some ideas and numbers off each other. I think I'll set up something in a spreadsheet where we can fiddle with the numbers and see what comes out the back end.

CJ

Good thoughts. We can still ask everyone...

- Bill

[Fedele Cacia]

Cindy, I got my knuckles wrapped from Gem for that one!!!

Fedele

[Bill Glasheen]

And I should have my knuckles rapped for repeatedly butchering your name. Sorry about that... I believe I fixed them all.

- Bell

[Stryke]

Hey Bill it`s a difficult thing to break up , weights got to be a factor against the bigger guys .

I`m considering doing the test just for a laugh , see how I do , but Fedele , wow , I dont think i`ll match the push ups

[Fedele Cacia]

Not a problem Bill, your not the first to butcher my name.

Stryke, I’m not so tough, I’m not sure of whom you are; but looking at your profile I think that you could probably take me, unlike this year however, I will be training for the event next year, good luck!!!


Fedele

[Stryke]

Fedele i`m not so tough either mate , but your results are impressive , If I ever make camp I`ll give it blast , might be in shape to take a beer or two afterwards

[chewy]

All the competitors are winners; we have already established that, the people that are two embarrassed to show what they have did not step up to the plate, I bet that if you called every one of the competitors; not one of them would object to posting there results.

Without question, Fedele, all who participated have nothing to be ashamed of. A couple of things to consider though:

1) Not all participants were adults or will act like adults; remember what it was like to be a kid?

2) Obviously the people who stepped up weren't afraid of their own abilities and likely wouldn't care about whether their scores are made public. But how many others sitting on the sidelines who are considering trying the FDT next year will not do so for fear of being known thoughout the Uechi community as "least fit".


cheers,

chewy

[gmattson]

I posted earlier that only those who did well on the test would be given the option to have their names on the "Wall of Fame". (I'll have to ask Tony to create a background for the web page, to look like a stone wall)

Bill would give everyone who participated (hopefully on the day of the test, with the help of a computer and printer) their scores, but only those who qualify, (read: Did a fantastic job) would be listed for the public to see. I don't see anyone making the "wall" being ashamed seeing their names there nor do I see anyone 'standing on the sidelines', making fun of these athletes.

When my friend David Berndt and I were discussing how a physical fitness element of our black belt test could be implemented, David suggested using an existing martial art program where mostly karate techniques were used. Anyone completing the test within a time period passed. There wasn't a competitive or performance standard involved.

I wanted a test where students and teachers were motivated to achieve a very high minimum standard and elements of the test were simple to understand, perform and judge. Rather than use karate techniques, which as Bill explained earlier, can't be easily judged for strength, power, and accuracy when performed fast, I wanted exercises that used the muscles and other skills found in the performance of our martial arts. That is when I brought the challenge to Bill for solving and implementing.

Camp was less than a week ago, so Bill is still on schedule for working out the bugs.

[Fedele Cacia]

You make a good point chewy, some times I feel so strongly about something, I think that everyone should feel the same, some say it’s the Calabrese in me.

I step back!!!


Fedele

[gmattson]

Based on the direction we are going with this test, I don't see anyone being afraid to take the test. I do see many who will give the test a try, just to see if they "measure up". If not, they will know where they stand and what areas they will have to work on in order to do better. And... if they should "make the mark", I bet they will be proud to have their names added to the wall.