A state of depletion

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Van Canna
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A state of depletion

Post by Van Canna »

Bill,

In addition to my daily practice of power form, conditioning, and two Uechi TC classes per week_ which is very aerobic_ I also train three times a week in the gym with 30 minutes aerobic work on the Stairmaster plus one hour weight training.

At six feet, two hundred pounds I am fairly trim and very powerful.

Then I read this in men’s magazine
A half hour on the treadmill is a disaster. For most men, lengthy aerobics training is a disaster. Here is why:

Studies show that too much aerobic exercise can shut down testosterone production. In addition your body drifts into a state of depletion. What that means is that your body shifts from burning fats and carbs to burning muscle.

If you do a half hour of aerobics before you lift, you’ll actually negate much of the muscle building benefit of your weight program.
What? It is suggested that you do ‘wind sprints’ instead.

I have been doing this for as long as I can remember.
What are your feelings on this?

Is my routine counter productive?
:(
Van
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ahhh.... Good topic, Van!

The "formula" for the perfect workout is an elusive one. To achieve that, we need to think about what you are trying to accomplish in the gym.

1) You want to burn calories. In the case of improving percent body fat, you want to burn more calories than you retain.

2) You want to promote muscle hypertrophy.

How you achieve that is an elusive thing, and that's a reason why many kids want to shortcut the whole thing and just take steroids. And even that comes to bite you in the arse at the end of the day.

The body is big on homeostasis. It wants to come to some kind of equilibrium based on the genetic instructions that came with it. And those instructions have been selected over other instructions over time based upon what life was like thousands of years ago. And life sure has changed a lot in just the past 100 years. Meanwhile, we're still carrying this outdated genetic code that was appropriate for another era. (It may become appropriate again if armageddon happens...)

The problem is the amount here. What people assume is that if X amount of work causes Y result, then 2* X work will cause 2*Y result, and 10*X work will cause 10*Y result. But it doesn't work that way. Your genetic code has been selected for based upon what really happens in the wild.

Let's take me as an example. I came from running track. I was a long distance runner. When I started martial arts, I was almost 6 foot (still taller than most who claim to be... ;)) and weighed all of 145 pounds. Why??? Let's look at the extreme. What does the average competitive marathoner look like?

Image

Is this nature or nurture? Well... It's a little bit of both. Nature gave this guy slow twitch muscles, which give him great endurance. But the nurture of training made this guy's body pare the weight down to an absolute minimum necessary.

Does this guy look like he's going to win a bodybuilding contest? Hardly.

What happened to me when I quit cross country and started martial arts plus some isometrics? In one year, I gained 30 pounds of muscle mass. I wasn't doing anything special. I was just 18, stopped doing the catabolic (breaking down) long-distance training, and let nature (being an 18-year-old) do its thing.

Bodybuilders spend a lot of time trying to come up with the right formula for how to train to get big. There are almost as many formulas as there are noses in the world, so you have to take any written opinion in your average Men's Magazine with a grain of salt. However... There is a kernel of truth here.

To encourage anabolism (building muscle) and discourage catabolism, you want to stimulate testosterone plus growth hormone and minimize the production of cortisol. Cortisol comes out when you are physically and psychologically stressed. If it's just psychological stress and you treat your body like crap, you end up gaining fat weight - particularly around the midsection. If it's physical and you are on the borderline of that ratio of what you consume vs. what you burn, your body may decide to keep you thin, but get rid of as much muscle as it does fat. And once the muscle mass starts going down, your basal metabolic rate may go down with it. Your genetic code is concerned with famine, and doesn't want to put you in that state of depletion where you might starve and die if food becomes scarce.

There are rules of thumb for how to make this work right. There are rules of thumb for how to increase muscle mass and decrease body fat (rather than some "unfavorable" combination of the two). And in doing this, you have to remember that your body can be smarter than you, and will try to keep you from doing things that aren't good for it (according to your genetic code). Here are some rules of thumb on this.

1) Keep your blood glucose level constant. Don't drop it by starving yourself. Don't peak it by eating high glycemic index stuff (sugar, etc.).

2) Work out VERY intensely, but for just an hour. Do not go beyond an hour, or the end result will be less testosterone and more cortisol.

My personal recommendation would be to spend 5 to 10 minutes (max) doing your warmup on some machine, and then jump on the weights. You can achieve the equivalent of wind sprints just by doing less time but increase the resistance on the machine. Some machines have special formulas for doing interval training. Then work really, really intensely on weights using primarily multiple muscle group exercises. You want to shock it. Stretch in-between sets when the various mucle groups are warm. Then go home and enjoy your day.

Image

This also means you have to find special ways (e.g. periodization) to change your workout so your body is constantly left guessing and "thinking" it needs to change to adapt.

You may want to do more aerobic work, but not on the same day as your weights. Maybe you go longer on a karate day. Do it before class to warm yourself up. Then your muscles will be physically warm for stretching. And your joints, tendons, and ligaments will be ready for some good hard work.

IMO, you are better off losing weight by concentrating on increasing muscle mass. It gets harder and harder to keep that with age as our bodies naturally decline in testosterone production. If we are vigilant, we can keep them looking pretty good much longer than people think. Even older bodies can produce testosterone and growth hormone in response to a good workout. And with the muscle mass higher, the basal metabolic rate is higher. As long as we eat right, you'll be burning more calories just by sitting and enjoying the buzz of your good work.

If you don't mind the look of a long distance runner, then by all means do more aerobic work. But there's a price to pay for too much of that. The lower the muscle mass, the less you can eat and not get fat. Some women never seem to get this...

Hope that helps.

- Bill
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Post by Guest »

Can working out too often/ to hard cause sexual dysfuntions too?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

On the margins maybe, Tony.

You can be "too tired" and "too stressed" to have sex. I'm sure you've heard that one before... ;) Lower testosterone means lower libido - both in men and women.

And there is this issue cyclists have with too much time on a hard seat and losing feeling... 8O

- Bill
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Post by Guest »

Suppose the libido is there but nothing else is...

Hard to explain...

This isn't about me by the way, but a friend of mine... he told me that not long ago, he was sport'n a load big enough to shampoo a buffalo, and then all of a sudden, he started working out at the gym and now theres hardly enough to flick like a booger (although he can shampoo the buffalo every now and then, so it's not consistent). He's got some stress in his life, and he's usually busy, tired or both, but he exercises regularly. Can stress and fatigue interupt sperm production? What about strenuous exercise? Also, can you have semen and not sperm or visa versa? Could an imbalance there be the result of too much exercise, stress, fatigue or a combonation of all three?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Tony wrote: Can stress and fatigue interupt sperm production?
It can affect it. The volume of ejaculate is affected by levels of testosterone and DHT.
Tony wrote: What about strenuous exercise?
Too much exercise = stress. If he's also getting more colds than normal, that's another sign. It's also affecting the immune system.
Tony wrote: Also, can you have semen and not sperm or visa versa? Could an imbalance there be the result of too much exercise, stress, fatigue or a combonation of all three?
The sperm need enough fluid to swim in. You need a minimum volume. And you can have lots of fluid with low sperm count.

The bottom line is that people should see their doctor when stuff happens. This can be a sign of other things as well. You didn't mention other things such as prescription (or illicit) drug use. Or he could have diabetes and now is experiencing something called retrograde ejaculation (going into the bladder instead of out the normal way.) That can affect things as well. It takes a good doctor to sort all that out.

It's all so complicated that it's amazing it works in the first place. But obviously it does; just look around you. :P

- Bill
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Post by Guest »

Thanks Bill, no drug use involved although he does take protonix for acid reflux.

what is DHT?
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

DHT = dihydrotestosterone. It is an oxidized form of testosterone. It causes many "secondary male characteristics" such as hair in some places and no hair in others.

Finasteride is a drug used in low doses to stop hair loss (propecia), and in higher doses to stop and even reverse prostate growth (proscar). BTW, all men eventually face BHP (enlarged prostate leading to problems in urination) if they live long enough. Finasteride essentially blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT. One of its side effects is a reduction in ejaculate volume.

No free lunch in life... :cry:

- Bill
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A huge wad

Post by benzocaine »

of useful information here.

Something I wonder about, is how intense should aerobic work be done on none weight training days? Should you go for the lower end of aerobics to fat burn, or get the heart beating even faster for both cardio and some anaerobic benefits?
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ben

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If you are a boxer, you want to make it strong to the end of every round. You need a glycolitic (anaerobic) reserve for "the finish" while aerobically moving about so you don't get hit.

If you want to lose weight, you are only concerned about weight. If you want to maximize your cardiorespiratory performance, well that's another part of the aerobic zone.

Martial arts is inherently an anaerobic activity. Ideally the fight happens in a short period of time - while you are still in your anaerobic zone. There are few exceptions, but it does happen.

Football is another classic anaerobic activity. It values and produces very big boys.

However folks like the Marines may have to jog to the battle site, kick butt and take names, and then haul butt out of there when done. So they can't optimize strictly for power and strength. They have to be lean, mean, and mobile. This is why they run a lot - in combat boots and gear!

The weekend warrior may have different goals.

- Bill
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Asteer
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Is Classic Aerobic Training Necessary?

Post by Asteer »

This topic is presently a "hot" one in the world of strength and conditioning coaches. Although not universally embraced, many S&C specialists do not believe in the concept of creating an "aerobic base" through the traditional "long-slow-distance" approach, especially for power sports (including most team sports like hockey, soccer, etc which are very start and go). Even for body composition, many coaches lean more towards interval type work which can also be quite taxing on the oxidative (aerobic) system.

The following excerpt from an article on strength and conditioning for submission fighters explains the position pretty well (although it does not talk about any effects on testosterone... that is a new one on me). Most of the objections I have seen to "aerobic" training turn around muscle fiber types and energy system pathways. Many coaches feel that it is important to train with specificity in mind and that training with aerobic methods for a sport like soccer would promote type-one fibers and the oxidative energy system for a sport requiring more type-II fibers and the phosphagen system along with gycolisis (the systems necessary for short and long "bursts" of activity)...
Strength and Conditioning Journal: Vol. 21, No. 5, pp. 42–45.
Strength and Conditioning for Submission Fighting

Michael S. Sanders, CSCS and Jose Antonio, CSCS

Is Classic Aerobic Training Necessary?

Combining interval training, strength training, and plyometrics to improve a submission fighter's anaerobic capacity, power, and force development may be the best possible way to train. Many coaches and athletes believe that one should perform aerobic training in order to build an “aerobic base” in preparation for high-intensity anaerobic work. In order to do this, athletes often engage in prolonged endurance exercises, such as slow jogging, stair climbing, or biking. These activities may actually have a negative impact on strength and power development (7, 13, 14).

It is not clear whether aerobic training is necessary for anaerobic sports. It has been shown that increases in cardiorespiratory fitness occur with interval training (10). The rest periods between sprints will put the athlete into oxygen debt. When the athlete goes into oxygen debt, the oxidative system comes into play to eliminate lactic acid and replenish ATP. Evidence indicates that strength training can be effective in increasing cardiorespiratory endurance (13) and short-term endurance after heavy-resistance training (6, 8). Another study found an increase in capillary density in skeletal muscle fiber using 6–8 repetitions (5). Capillarization in muscle is linked with oxidative potential in muscle fiber. This evidence shows that long, slow training may not even be needed in order to train the oxidative system. Although muscle fiber composition is an important factor in athletic performance, an athlete should not neglect the role of diet, training, skill/technique work, rest, and environmental cues.

Furthermore, interval training can be used to train the oxidative system. This is accomplished by incorporating sprints of 1.5 to 3 minutes into the workout. The athlete would then be given a 1:1 work:rest ratio for recovery (14). This stresses the oxidative system more but would subject the athlete to faster running speeds. Using this type of training in the off-season or early in the preseason may be warranted. It will help the athlete to endure the short, high-intensity sprints as well as to cope with the mental fatigue of training. The ways in which a coach or athlete would incorporate longer sprint training into the workout will be detailed later.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Great article!

The truth is that I personally do not do any aerobic training. I haven't for years, partially because of my knee operation over 30 years ago. (I now have no lateral meniscus or shock absorber in my right knee.) Another big reason is because it is bloody boring, and also because I do my weight training in a fashion (little rest between sets) where I get good cardiorespiratory training anyhow. You can also do martial arts training in an aerobic fashion if you keep things moving. This kills several birds with one stone.

This article confirms my approach. Yes, I get the plyometric training in as well with weights and other methods.

Interval training is a killer. On interval training days for cross country, I constantly was in an "I want to puke" mode. I can't do these sprints any more with my knee. However the newfangled machines allow you to program interval training in, and do it in a low impact fashion.

Anyhow, this is a very interesting article.
Asteer wrote: although it does not talk about any effects on testosterone... that is a new one on me
This I got from years of following the bodybuilding scene. My wife used to compete. I would read their literature for years hoping to pick up a few ideas here and there. (Bodybuilding is different from weight training is different from competitive lifting - FWIW.)

To understand why various training methods work, you need to understand a little biochemistry. The neurohormonal system is a very important part of all this.

- Bill
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Bill,

Thank you for the exhaustive and informative reply.

I understand that it is all about what the goal is. Not an easy answer.

Over time I have tried to stay close to the standard imposed on me by my soccer coach _ lithe and powerful > with endurance to withstand the rigors of a demanding soccer game for 90 minutes.

This photo represents my ideal over time.

Image

Never had any interest in bodybuilding, and when working weights, even back then, I concentrated on ‘explosive lifts’_

When coming to Uechi, the focus remained the same.

Here are my goals_

1] I want to keep burning calories so I don’t gain weight_

2] I want my endurance to improve against the rigors of ‘adrenalized’ engagement_

3] I want to shoot for being lithe and more powerful with my Uechi.

~~

When lifting_ what are the best exercises to load power along the lines of direction and force of Uechi?

If I go from 30 minutes [now] to 5/10 minutes interval_ will it burn as many calories as the previous 30?
Van
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Post by IJ »

Agreed with Bill that a fight is going to be largely anaerobic (although the best self defense technique, that of the rabbit, may require aerobic help if prolonged). Karate training for fighting's sake would then be largely built around strength and less about endurance. But of course, we mostly do Uechi not because we think it is the single best way on earth to learn to fight, but because we like doing Uechi and find value in it on several levels. And modern karate is often a 1-2 hour, several times a week sort of thing... and is often led in groups... fairly consistent activity... beginning to sound a lot like an aerobics class with an edge. And few of us are actually maxing out our training. We hear a lot about creatine to get something like an extra rep out of some superset for example... but how many people are doing that superset and maxing out their nutrition and pushing themselves to the max? In reality, a large number of us are going to get diabetes or coronary artery disease, etc, and the best means to prevention is

--keeping lean muscle mass as most of your body to maximize your resting metabolic rate and to enjoy your karate BUT
--balancing with aerobic to keep your heart healthy, keep your blood pressure down, and generally do the best for your health.
--Ian
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Ian,

Thanks for the reply.

What are you thinking in terms of 'balancing'?
Van
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