A state of depletion

[Piche]

Bill,
I've read alot about the food you eat after intense workouts. What are your thoughts on refueling the body.

Don

[Asteer]

Bill,
I've read alot about the food you eat after intense workouts. What are your thoughts on refueling the body.

Lots has been discovered about this in the last few years. The short anwer is, consume a liquid meal directly following your workout which contains approximately a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein (ex. 0.8g/kg body weight maltodextrin : 0.4g/kg whey protein). You can buy some pre-made stuff that pretty closely resembles this or you can mix gatorade with some cheap whey protein (but that kind of tastes bad...).

To make a long story short, the carb/protein cocktail is designed to invoke an insuline response which piggy-backs off the exercise session to deliver the glycogen and the protein directly to the muscles. Insulin is the vehicle for delivering these nutrients into the cells.

By doing this, you shorten the "catabolic" period following exercise and move more quickly into the rebuilding "anabolic" phase of the post-workout period. This makes for less soreness, faster recovery and thus more gains over time.

Then, two hours later, you should eat a solid food meal which includes lean protein and carbohydrates. This goes as much for endurance athletes as for strength and power athletes.

If you really want to understand this stuff, you should check out Dr John Berardi. He did his PhD thesis on post workout recovery nutrition. He is one of THE gurus on sports nutrition out there right now. The following is a compilation of some clips from an article on his website.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... zzle_1.htm
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nut ... zzle_2.htm

[Asteer]

If you are REALLY interested in sports nutrition I recommend the following book. I found it very interesting.

Nutrient Timing : The future of Sports Nutrition
John Ivy, Ph.D. & Robert Portman Ph.D.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

[Bill Glasheen]

Well said.

Adding to this... The post-workout period is one of the few times in life where a little sugar is a good thing. Don't put Gatorade in your kids' lunchboxes, but do have a Gatorade and Whey shake after a really intense weight workout. Among other things, insulin has a net anabolic property - particularly at this point in time.

It's also worth mentioning here that not all proteins are created equal. There are slow and fast releasing proteins. Whey is one of the fastest, and what you should have just after a hard workout. For normal meals though where you want steady release of nutrients to last you until the next meal, more natural mixes of protein types are better (e.g. real, unprocessed food).

If you're retired and burning your calories through walking - and this is a perfectly reasonable life adjustment - then you can skip the Gatorade. That's not what I would call an intense workout.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

The other option I'm thinking about is a 30 minute lunch workout everyday doing a different muscle group each day. The problem I've had in the past with this is missing a day and throwing the rotation off.

It's really important to be flexible in your workouts. If you MUST do a certain type of workout on a certain day of week and the world will end when you don't, then you either are setting yourself up for failure, or you'll turn yourself into a body Nazi. Neither extremes are helpful.

Just rotate your workouts. Stuff happens. You have a life, people get sick, injuries happen, the job sends you out of town, hurricanes invade our cities, The Rolling Stones come into town, etc., etc. If you miss a workout, just do that workout on the next available session. Better yet, you might just find a new place to do a same-old same-old, and actually enjoy it!

- Bill

[MikeK]

Thanks for the advice Bill flexibility may be the answer. I was just about to hit the gym but since I'm still feeling (in a good way) the last two days workouts I think I'll kick back and just go tomorrow.

[RACastanet]

Bill said:

What hasn't been posted yet but is now being investigated is that you can extend the anaerobic phase. Rich has been explaining to me that the Marines are specifically working on this in their training. And power/speed is much, much greater during the anaerobic phase.

Yes, this is one of the goals of combat conditioning. Now, it does not mean they can extend the anerobic phase for 5 minutes but definitely beyond the norm. At the elite level training schools it is amazing just how far they can push themselves day after day.

I have not seen anyone over 39 at the MCMAP training center so age is an issue. The training regimin is geared to younger Marines. However, the CO is around 50 and he can pretty much blow away everybody on the obstacle courses and the endurance courses. His build is just a bit lighter than Bill's.

One thing they do is never stop moving. Instead of resting between anerobic training sets or walking slowly to the next training station they will be carrying or dragging another Marine or some such thing. Plus they are almost always carrying a combat load. On day one they are all issued a sandbag that is always with them. If there is a moment of inactivity they will be doing some core exercize with the bag.

At the end of the 7 week Instructor/Trainer course these men and women are just in incredible shape. The program has been fine tuned so well that the attrition rate due to injury has fallen from 25% or more over the 7 week period to usually one or two individuals.

Rich

[benzocaine]

Well.. yesterday I did my first High intensity interval routine.

I did about 3 minutes slow pace to warm up. Then 30 seconds fast, 30 seconds max speed where my body was like WTF are you doing here???!!! 1 minute aerobic recovery speed.. and then back to 30 seconds WTF speed.. rest.. well you guys get it. I did a total 10 minute workout, and then done.

I felt great all day

But around 4 pm I felt my sugar crash.. I mean ravenously hungry to the point I felt light headed and weak.

Hmmmm I've had this happen on a weight training day before. I had lifted before work. When I felt myself being dizzy I had a nurse check my sugar it was 50

This is very troubleing for me. I'm afraid it may be pre diabetes. Does anyone know if this happens in response to a new stress on the body? Any advice on diet? Would the whey and gatoraide coctain post workout help prevent a crash later in the day?

[Asteer]

But around 4 pm I felt my sugar crash.. I mean ravenously hungry to the point I felt light headed and weak.

What are your eating habits like? In order to avoid spikes and crashes during the day (which can lead to the ravenously hungry I'll eat anything, and lots of it, feeling), there a few things you should be doing...
-Eat EVERY 2-3 hours. We were not meant to eat three square
-Eat fruits and veggies with each of those feedings.
-Eat lean protein with each of those feedings.
-Save the starchy carbs and sugars for the post workout period when your body is revved up to be able to handle them.

Those four things alone should smooth out your hunger and energy levels. It will allow you to regularize your insulin release throughout the day and ensure that your body has adequate levels of nutrients throughout the day. It will also reduce "cravings" since your body will be receiving enough micro-nutrients on a regular basis (vitamins, minerals, etc, etc).

[RACastanet]

Once a week I will get on a treadmill with a heart rate monitor and run my heart rate to or a little above my max - 170 bpm - for 45 minutes to an hour. Periodically I will run at a near max speed - 6.5 to 7 minute mile rate - for a minute or so and then back down to around a 9 minute mile rate. This keeps my heart really going!

While doing this I drink a lot of water and every 20 minutes or so pop a piece of hard candy in my mouth. Afterwards I will move to a stationary bike for a while and drink more water and eat a granola bar or some such thing.

I do this either mid-morning or no later than 2pm.

Afterwards I really feel great! Usualy I sleep really well that night. In fact, even though I am pretty pooped that is usually the best I feel all week so the routine must get the endorphins flowing.

I will do a moderate workout at least two more times a week. Rarely will I try to do a max workout like that twice a week as my joints just do not like it.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

My "bonking" went away when I started eating better and with proper frequency. I'm all behind Asteer's advice.

Some have commented on how well I eat, and how I rarely abuse my body. The reason for it is because when I work myself hard, bad things will happen to me unless I eat right, rest right, and sleep right. Nobody enjoys feeling like crap, and if you can get a handle on why it is happening, that can change behavior dramatically.

Pain is a great teacher, so long as we learn how to listen to it.

- Bill

[IJ]

"And as evidenced in previous posts will also work the oxidative (aerobic) system during rest/recovery, thus providing the same health benefits mentioned above."

I wonder what is the "aerobic system," here. I don't think we can presume that asking your heart to increase its output for 30-60 minutes several times a week can be equated physiologically with asking your liver to convert lactic acid back to glucose. If these factors reliably toned your heart then those overbuffed lifters I mentioned before would have accidentally run a 5 minute miles rather than coming in at 10 minutes looking like a coronary.

"The other disadvantage of the long-slow-distance approach to exercise is the wear and tear on the body. I know so many former joggers who are just worn out from all the mileage."

What other disadvantage? This is the first one you mentioned, have you go it in for aerobics??

The wear and tear... well... it all depends doesn't it? My aerobics is a virtually nonimpact stint on the exercise bike several times a week. I made sure I got a bucket seat so I don't have any excess pressure on the perineum as it seems many long distance riders do. I set the thing to maximum resistance and bike 30-65 minutes and end up using 800-1600 calories acording to the bike (while I doubt the accuracy here, I do like being able to compare energy outputs). I'm with Rich--I stay very well hydrated before during and after, stretch; I just don't need any hard candy.

There's no wear and tear... and aerobics is low impact too. Certainly lower impact than running long distance OR short distance and lower impact than karate, which is an easy way to ding your elbows (see parallel thread) as I have, ko a knee here or there, or just put a lot of pounding on your joints. But I think we all know I happily endorse some karate, its just a matter of emphasis.

"I've known more than a few examples of young women (particularly aerobics instructors) in early stages of osteoporosis and suffering from amenorrhea while doing excessive aerobic training."

These people have body dysmorphic disorder, anorexia or bulemia, relative if not absolute; or compulsive exercising conditions... whatever, they're ill. Of course they're doing aerobics and not anaerobics because 1) they can't do anaerobics that much, their bodies would not tolerate it and 2) they want to look deathcamp and anaerobic won't help with that. To work yourself into this kind of disease state takes an unusual effort that most americans are at little risk of. The majority of us (not in Uechi perhaps; certainly not on this thread) have to be encouraged to park a little farther out or to chuck the remote to get more exercise. They have decent muscle mass just from carrying their duffs around. This is what's going on with the fitness, or lack thereof, for most of us.

There's nothing wrong with maxing out performance and taking creatine and protein gel 7.2 seconds after finishing whatever precisely defined set your're on. That's all cool. However, for most people, the primary determinant of their health is going to be aerobic conditioning, and the best form is something low impact (esp bike swim), several times a week, don't do anything that obviously is unhealthy like the women of Bill's examples, and with MD supervision if they're of coronary age or are ill. I would make sure that one has a low resting heart rate, a happy blood pressure, and can hold their own jogging, biking, swimming, whatever as a (health) priority, and then look at maxing out their strength.

"Don't knock interval training and wind sprints until you try it."

I'm not knocking anything. I'm stating that the best form of conditioning for health reasons is aerobic. I've yet to come out against anerobic training or weights. I do anaerobic kata all the time and I lift. I've got a ideal BMI (6'3" 168) and I'm low fat (31w). My primary deficiency now besides my Sanchin is always lousy is that I need and want better aerobic conditioning for my senior health. Thinking future here... hence, the bike, hence, maxing out my 403(b) and 457(b) as of this morning--yay! Rich would be proud!--then Sanchin.

Second matter: hypoglycemia isn't prediabetes. Diabetes is insulin deficiency (relative or absolute) and the kind we can control is type 2 (insulin resistance). These people see their fasting sugars, postmeal sugars too high and the post meal spike too long. Prediabetes is just an arbitrary level before the formal disease criteria. As with hypertension, there is a continous relationship of the elevated factor (BP or sugar) to bad outcomes. The higher the value the worse the outcomes; the lower the better (except at extremes, low BP, sugar, or weight is bad for you). What those with lows after exercise need to do is to "cover the exercise" with some calories, preferably long acting ones (proteins, low glycemic index carbs), whereas diabetics need to do the opposite: "cover the meal" with short acting insulin so they don't spike the other direction.

[Bill Glasheen]

It's probably worth mentioning that I avoid the elevator, mow my own lawn, and tend not to fight for a parking space near a building. There are lots of everyday things people can do to make themselves healthy. It makes no sense to me to pay someone to mow your grass, and then pay to join a health club to work out on an exercise bike (unless you are allergic to cut grass).

Yes, I have to take my allergy meds in the spring and fall. Yes, I miss out on watching that blonde in the row in front of me bounce the way she does.

I did post about a 95-year-old man who set a 100 meter sprint world record by doing daily hourlong walks (Don't give me crap about your age...) Even sub-aerobic exercise is good. It's all good.

I do however think the original premise here - avoiding long aerobic work if you want to be a buff male - has merit. We may or may not care to be buff as martial artists, but we do care about being fast, strong, and powerful. Those are primarily anaerobic qualities. And the old idea that you need first to build an aerobic base for most activities may be yesterday's training philosophy. I think questioning the conventional wisdom here is appropriate.

I'm stating that the best form of conditioning for health reasons is aerobic.

That too is "conventional wisdom", Ian. And I think that is worth challenging. To the extent that interval training (low or high impact) involves primarily anaerobic activity with an aerobic side benefit inbetween "sprints", I think we have a reasonable alternative. To the extent that aerobic work doesn't address the issue of bone demineralization with age or the 10% loss in muscle mass per decade, I think we have reason to challenge the conventional wisdom.

Aerobics are good for raising your good cholesterol. That's about it in my book. And I get aerobic training in my weight training by not standing around running my mouth like 90% of the beefcake and cheesecake that come to the gym. My heart probably stays in near-aerobic if not aerobic range for most of the session.

I don't think we can presume that asking your heart to increase its output for 30-60 minutes several times a week can be equated physiologically with asking your liver to convert lactic acid back to glucose. If these factors reliably toned your heart then those overbuffed lifters I mentioned before would have accidentally run a 5 minute miles rather than coming in at 10 minutes looking like a coronary.

I've talked about this issue a bit in the fitness test I worked on, Ian. It's a reason why I have both a standing broad jump and a one-mile run.

Fast twitch is fast twitch, and slow twitch is slow twitch. You aren't going to have a marathoner dunking a basketball, and you aren't going to have a sprinter doing well in the mile. We necessarily need to specialize in our training, and we each are dealt the DNA we have.

Trust me, I could have laid a lot more cheerleaders had I been dunking basketballs instead of being captain of the cross country team. But some white men can't jump, and that's probably true for Kenyans as well. You go with what you have and make the best of it. I use good timing, highly developed neuromuscular reflexes, and sequential summation of movement in my karate to make up for the raw speed and power that my body doesn't naturally have.

One of the things I want to show over time with the fitness data (as I collect it) is an inverse relationship between performance on the standing broad jump and performance on the mile (for equally fit people). The way I kept those two events in, it gives everyone a chance to shine in what they can do best given their genetic makeup.

- Bill

[Asteer]

"The other disadvantage of the long-slow-distance approach to exercise is the wear and tear on the body. I know so many former joggers who are just worn out from all the mileage."

What other disadvantage? This is the first one you mentioned, have you go it in for aerobics??

As mentioned earlier, the other disadvatages would be (in relation to a power sport which is what we are talking about... karate) :
-Preferential recruitment and development of type I muscle fibers.
-Preferential use of the oxidative energy system over the glycolytic and phosphagen systems.
-And the originator of the thread (that I had not heard before) depletion of testoserone...
-And I think Bill mentionned that the body adapts quickly to the repetitive nature of aerobic exercise and one becomes quite adept at using as little energy as possible...

So, if you believe in the principle of specificity, and most strength and conditioning specialists do nowadays, then aerobic training is not the best way to train for karate (or any power sport).

And as to your other question, of course I do not have it in for aerobics. Whatever works, works. However, I have seen a lot of people disapointed with their results on predominantly aerobic programs (as much with respect to body composition goals as performance goals). These same people have seen dramatic results when shifting to alternative programs.

And just one last time... We must not equate "anaerobic" training with weight training only. My "energy system" training incorporates many approaches from slide board to stationary bike to sprints to calisthenics to jump rope and the list goes on. I just don't do them for 30-60 min at the same slow pace...

[Stryke]

I'm stating that the best form of conditioning for health reasons is aerobic.

I question this line of thought , especially for martial artists .

I`ve read ( ok i cant remember the source ) that muscle growth and development keeps the body in a positive state and stimulates the immune system more than aerobic excercise .

secondly i get a lot of aerobic excercise from lifting heavy !!! , my pulse resting is about 60 bpm , and I dont do much Aerobic excercise to be honest (karate workouts excluded of course)

I feel a lot healthier when i lift , ive done the extreme fitness thing when younger , training 6 days a week , and when i was competing overtraining (aerobically)was a part of my build up for peaking .

Most people who have lifted for a while can feel the state there body is in , wether your growing or struggling , and your general health .

I just havent found aerobic training to put me in the same state .

Try 5 sets of 5 heavy squats or deads , and then tell me you havent had an aerobic workout .