GEM's Oct. 31 Thoughts (Home Page)

[Guest]

I can not and do not speak for Shigeru Takamiyagi, but what I do say I would say to his face and in his presence.

I would recognize his energy and skill in the early days of the Futenama dojo and his organizational efforts in establishing Uechi Ryu in the international community.

In addition, I would thank him for his lasting contribution to Uechi Ryu as an editor along with Ken Nakamatsu of the blue Kyhon book, UECHI RYU KARATE DO, 1975.

Master Nestor Folta is a a holder of the Uechi Ryu world champion men's senior kata division. How does he test students in Sanchin? I have read in these Forums that his testing is most demanding, vigorous and challenging. George Sensei, since Master Folta is not critized in these Forums, should I then conclude that his testing is sensitive "checking?"

My teacher's teacher, Toshiyuki Itokatzu, is an obvious example of "extreme" conditioning. Master "Tosh" was challenged by a group of young ruffians who wanted a "piece of the fat little j*p" outside a bar over in Palm Beach . Tosh asked them if he could warm up first before he fought them. He stepped to the curb and started kicking a parking meter with his shins with left and right low roundhouse kicks, shaking the meter pole and bending it. The goup turned and ran.

Alan Dollar writes in his authoritive THE SECRETS OF UECHI RYU KARATE AND THE MYSTERIES OF OKINAWA:

One objective of martial arts training is raising the tolerance to pain. The muscle pain of developing strong kicks or fast punches, or the emotional pain of failures or embarrassments along the way, are physically and emotionally strengthening experiences. Learning to raise the threshold of pain during body conditioning and board breaking develops a higher level of mental control.

This is not hazing students. This is training. How one trains translates into how one fights. Dollar also states:

Sanchin kata creates body armor while increasing the mental pain threshold. The confidence resulting from contitioning helps maintain calmness and control in an altercation. This allows for greater efficiency in blocking and overall defense.

The purpose of demonstrations is to show the distinction between one who is conditioned and one who is not. Karate is a physical contact activity. I am able to choose the level of conditioning that is appropriate for me.

[Stryke]

I am able to choose the level of conditioning that is appropriate for me.

that has to be the real issue !!!

Will be interested in Gems response .

Having been on the "receiving" side of Mr. Takimiyagi's "checking" of Sanchin many times, I can honestly say that his interpretation and application of Sanchin "checking" is hazing at its worse, dangerous to the student and accomplishes nothing. Fortunately, his abusive behavior towards students is not shared by many of his Okinawan associates.

But it`s clear to me from this Gem thinks the Checking is excessive , being Hazing and therefore bordering on abuse .

[Guest]

John, why do you not refer to George Sensei as Master Matson? You seem keen on titles. Why not show George the same respect you shower on others?

No offence intended just curious.

Good to see you back posting, you've been absent for a few days.Hope all is well. Thanks for the post I missed the article on the front page.

I've never witnessed or experienced this excessive testing, I find the whole debate most interesting. I'll remain a bystander on this one as it's out of my realm of experience. Thanks for the education folks,

[Stryke]

I for one am Glad Johns back .

Looking forward to his side of the discussion .

I know George thinks your a good guy , look forward to the developments .

[Rick Wilson]

John:

I happen to be a little conditioning crazy myself (although I always prefer being able to give back) so I have no issue with your closing statement:

“The purpose of demonstrations is to show the distinction between one who is conditioned and one who is not. Karate is a physical contact activity. I am able to choose the level of conditioning that is appropriate for me.”

I do not know Mr. Takamiyagi as I have never met the man, so I offer no comments or evaluations of him or his testing.

However, I do know and I have met George (Master Mattson to you John ) and if he says it was excessive then I believe him. He has seen and had a few Sanchin testings in his day.

In addition what makes you think George has not said these comments to Mr. Takamiyagi’s face? Do you know something we do not or are you just disrespecting George?

[benzocaine]

As far as I know Master Folta has never blown out any ones knees, or busted finger... or checked a former heart surgery patients solar plexus (yes, Master T visited my old dojo in Mass and did this to an old WW2 era student.. was '94 or '95).

I don't know master Folta, but he does have a good reputation. He's a "World Champion" according to his web page... in Kata and Dan kumite I believe. Right up you alley John.

[Guest]

Did Master Folta win the Sabaki Challenge?

[Guest]

we're not talking about conditioning, we're talking about standing there like an idiot while someone hits you, it's condtradictory to everything you've been taught, which makes the concept retarded. not suprising for uechi ryu though.

[RACastanet]

Master Nestor Folta is a a holder of the Uechi Ryu world champion men's senior kata division. How does he test students in Sanchin? I have read in these Forums that his testing is most demanding, vigorous and challenging.

Yes, this is correct. About 10 years ago I had the pleasure of Folta sensei testing my sanchin for my shodan test. It was brutal. The audience gasped a few times and I must say I was challenged. I had visited Nestor a few times leading up to the test and he knew what I could withstand. No knee shots but serious kicks and body blows while static and while performing sanchin kata.

At the time I was well prepared for the test and am glad I earned my belt with Nestor's approval. I would not want to submit to that level of testing at this time however.

At the Marine Corps martial arts school at Quantico I get to see some serious hazing but quite honestly they do not do anything quite as punishiing as a sanchin test by Nestor. But, the candidates at Quantico get brutally challenged for 7 weeks 24/7 and it serves no good purpose to risk seriously injuring a Marine.

Early on in the Marine program, 2001 - 2003, the dropout rate due to injury was at or over 25%. The seven week program was modified and now the attrition due to training injuries is close to zero.

Back to Nestor... The candidate that followed me that day was a young lady. She fully expected a Nestor like test but instead was tested by Kanji Uechi, who was not quite sure how to deal with a female. He really took it easy on her. The result? She cried after the sanchin test because she felt 'dissed'. She wanted to show off her stuff!

It is all relative.

Rich

[gmattson]

Mr. Takimiyagi and I have partied many times together and we have discussed the subject of "extreme testing" often. What I've published publicly I have told Mr. takimiyagi to his face. Interestingly, he has heard the same warnings from all the old masters, like Shinjo, Seiyo, Uechi, Kanei and others.

Nestor, I know as a fact, gears his "checking" to the individual. He believes that the "check" adds to the test and gives the student a feeling of accomplishment. He never injures a students and would never exceed the student's ability/strength during their sanchin.

I check strongly during a dan test as well. But I don't use "penetrating" blows to the body and legs. However, the candidate knows he/she has been "checked".

This is an interesting subject and I suspect that someone will one day write a book on the many benefits of the Sanchin "check". Hopefully they will also stress the dangers of someone who happens to have a black belt, with very little knowledge about what or why he/she is "testing" a candidate, indiscriminately pounding away on the subject like he/she is a makiwara or heavy bag.

And hopefully they will do a little research on how the "checking" evolved into "testing".

Good to have you back John. I thought the B-3s (Bad,Bully,Boys) scared you away.

[Bill Glasheen]

This is tricky stuff... It's relative to who is being tested, who is testing, the purpose of the testing, how that purpose is executed, etc. It's like touching someone. Sometimes it's welcome, and sometimes it's highly objectionable. It just depends... Back to the EQ thing, a good teacher is supposed to be emotionally intelligent enough to know the difference here.

I once had George comment on how I tested one of my students on his dan test (Andy). I didn't take offense. I listened to his point of view, understood what he was getting at, and compensated.

When I "test hard", my goal isn't hazing, or to give someone a Red Badge of Courage. My goal depends upon the setting.

* In a classroom, I either am trying to give the student confidence, or show the student the boundaries of his/her abilities. Often these days I don't even do a lot of striking. I can take a single finger and break someone's balance if I want when they don't have it right. And what I am doing sometimes has to do with strength, and sometimes has to do with sensitivity. It's the latter part that many of the macho men don't get - to their peril on the street.

* On a test, my goal is to make someone look good, and demonstrate how far they have come. As such, I believe an instructor should test his own student, or the student should be tested by someone (s)he knows and/or respects. If someone is a beast, I make them look like a beast. If they are a lithe mongoose, I make them look like one. My statement is "Here is what this person brings to the kata."

* I've had the *&^% beaten out of me by crazy Japanese martial artists. It is hazing, pure and simple. Frankly over time, I detected "payback" for their a$$kicking in WWII. What-ever...

There can be a way to approach this. Once when Taki was going a bit over the top, one of my teachers (Dave Finkelstein) chose to make a statement. He was beating the crap out of students and hurting them. So Dave got in line again, and demanded to be tested. Then he got in line a third time. Then a fourth. Finally Taki threw his hands up.

When asked later on what he was doing, Dave replied "I was trying to break his *%$# hand!"

Clearly Dave and others knew that - in this context - Taki was being inappropriate. And you've gotta love Dave's attitude.

That being said, I spent a fantastic week with Taki on Thompson Island circa 1984. His job was to work with the Nidans on Kanchin kata. Judy Durkin and I became fast friends that week working together with Taki. I took some beautiful photographs of that week, and loaned them (negatives included) to George. I hope he still has them... In any case, I learned some incredible things about Uechi Ryu from him that no other Uechi instructor was teaching at the time. Taki understood the dynamic range of Uechi Ryu better than any Uechi master I ever have worked with.

Several of my students worked with Taki (especially Chris Long) way back in the days when Gordi worked with him. And Chris still has a relationship with Mr. Takamiyagi well after Gordi left and chose to study with Mr. Toyama.

It isn't all bad.

On the subject of Mr. Folta... I've seen Uechi Kanmei test Nestor. That's where he gets it from. I've also seen a situation where... respected instructors went a bit over the top, and a few of us Mid Atlantic instructors quietly agreed to approach said instructor and express our views.

There's a fine line...

These days I don't get all worked up about beating on people in Sanchin any more. I'd a lot rather have that go on in mutual body conditioning exercises. That way the chance of hazing going on is slim to none, and the message about how to handle yourself in a fight is better communicated.

Fair is fair...

- Bill

[RACastanet]

I've seen Uechi Kanmei test Nestor. That's where he gets it from.

I recall that session. My kids were with me, ages 11 and 13, and they were afraid they were next. When we did sanchin and Nestor and Kanmei were walking around the room they kept looking at me with a 'lets get out of here' expression. We were not subjected to any rough treatment but it did make an impression.

Rich

[Van Canna]

When asked later on what he was doing, Dave replied "I was trying to break his *%$# hand!"

Ha.. that's the approach we, as Gem's seniors, took at the
Hancock street dojo_ by lining up to be tested by him over and over until he gave up in trying to show off and hurt the 'iron seniors' who were engaged in the open 'blood bath' tourneys of the era_ the 'pioneer fighters'

What a joke. Then he witnessed 'slam fighting excellence' by the same seniors, getting his 'arrogance wings' clipped to the point of admitting to Gem that his seniors were, very_ very good.

And this does not mean he wasn't an excellent martial artist and teacher_ he was all of that and more.

[TheGreatWhiteBuffalo]

hurt the 'iron seniors' who were engaged in the open 'blood bath' tourneys of the era_ the 'pioneer fighters'

off topic but I was wondering if Van sensei is willing to share those stories in another thread, sounds very intriguing!

[jorvik]

Van
One of my favourite songs was "I won't back down"................guess it's one of yours as well