We Have Not Lost This War… Yet

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:14 am

I really like this guy's blog. Here's the link to his view about the Iraqi War/Occupation. Interesting that we don't refer to it for what it is, which is an occupation to help them get a leadership that is acceptable to the free world after a succesfully waged war.

The truth is that the occupation of Iraq will only end in failure if America chooses to fail. We will “lose” only if we quit, become ashamed that we quit, and then begin using the words “we lost” to cover up the fact that we chose to chicken out and run away like a big bunch of spoiled weenies from the suburbs, which is sort of what those of us who are not soldiers really are.

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:17 am

...a war of aggression (somewhat) over prevarications. So we are stuck with finishing what we started.

Gene

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:40 am

Whatever your feelings - and folks obviously have them - it is indeed a GOOD thing to finish what we started. The differences in outcome between succeeding and failing are so dramatic that seeing this through is a no-brainer.

Frankly I see this progressing pretty well. I get a little peeved at the press at times. Sometimes it seems like these folks weren't paying attention in history class. I've never known a war that was "easy" or "uncomplicated." They all are difficult affairs, and any human life lost is one too many. But war is war.

I noted a distinct change in the attitude of all people interviewed about Iraq on the Sunday morning talk shows today. The rhetoric seems to be waning on the opposition side, and the reigning party seems to be a bit more up front about things. Good...

As far as I am concerned, there's nothing to be ashamed of on ANY front. I'm happy to see Saddam gone. I'm happy to see the UN exposed as the corrupt (Hussein payola) organization we've always known it to be. I'm happy to see the bribing of German, French, and Russian officials exposed. I'm happy to see someone who shot at our planes and violated 13 UN resolutions get his butt kicked. I'm happy to see the whackos now going to Iraq rather than here.

Yes, there are lots of mistakes that were made. Absolutely. That's war; get over it.

With the Sunni clerical leaders now insisting that their followers vote this Thursday, it looks like things are only getting better each election. I saw a rather interesting Iraqi poll today, showing overwhelming optimism of the Shia and the Kurds, with a bit of pessimism from the Sunnis. It won't be long before the Sunnis realize they're getting a raw deal with all this violence. The more they figure that out and participate in the political process, the less welcome the insurgency will be.

Most importantly of all, I send 100% of my support to our troops, and wish the Iraqis well on December 15 - election day.

- Bill

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:38 am

... Now all we have to do is find a realistic defenition of victory.

GW has said that as long as Iraq harbors insurgents we will stay there. Hmmmmm this is the Middle East Riiiiiiight??? It looks like we are there for a long long time.

Very very sad that every time we turn on the news another kid fresh out of high school, or someone's daddy(or mommy) is dead by some Islamoterrorist.

Yes It looks bad on us to pull our troops out... but do you know what? We're going to do it anyways. I bet anyone that the next Presidential and congressional race is going to be about pulling our troops out of Iraq.

regkray · Post by **regkray** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:51 pm

Yes

Yur right at least Sadham can't launch the WOMD at us.

Cause him and the independent weapons instructors were telling the truth they didnt have them.

No,but at least we've made the people of Iraq happy.

Oh no their still fighing us?

At least we treat the civillians with dignity.

Apart from the torture and rapes and whole sale murder.

Yup this is war get used to it.

Oh and at least the US now have control of all the oil there.

Bt that is not the main reason for the thousands of deaths on both sides surely?

And at least we have right on our side.

No like them pesky Iraqies.

Their leader doesn't even hear God talking to him.

RK

cxt · Post by **cxt** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:47 pm

Good lord (small "g") Reg

Actually the direct, specific wording of the UNSCR resolution in question called for their destruction under direct supervision.
Did you watch him destroy them?
Did anyone?

(the answer here is no BTW)

So you think we should have just taken the word of a murdering madman?
Love to play poker with you dude.

Actually only a tiny minority of people are fighting us--and may of those are NOT even Iraqi's.

Many cities have a serious gang problem--murders, rapes, drug dealing--so would you also say that "they" are fighting us?
And if so that is proof of what?

Actually the incidents of torture are remarkably few--given the number of people involved and the number of prsioners its only happaned a few times.
And the folks that did it afe being tried--some have even been sent to jail.
Thats how it works--people commit crimes--they are arrested and tried.

Not about control of oil---we can buy it much cheaper than fighting for it--heck if its just about oil we could get much of right here at home.

No, "their" leader was a mass-murdeing madman who was a danger to the region and the world.
Whom failed to keep to the terms of the cease-fire agreement that signed--thus he brought his ruin upon himself.

And no, SH did not talk to god---he is considered an "apostate" by OBL.

Tell you what-- I never mind slapping stuff around, but how about you try and make a better case than a mash of childish assertions, and actually deal with specific's.

Ok??

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:14 pm

We never finished Korea or Vietnam.
Some would say (General Patton) that we never finished WWII by not taking Russia.

So what's the deal with not finishing?
Best way to finish them is getting off foreign oil.

F.

cxt · Post by **cxt** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:41 pm

We need to get off oil period!

If we had any brains we would have taken the oil embargo a couple of decades ago as a warning.
If we had been really smart--we would be looking around right now going "oil??--what do you use that stuff for?""
Then go out and get into our ethanol or hydrogen or whatever cars.

Also a real problem in that oil is really not the real problem.

The real problem is a bunch of relgious fascists that want to turn the clock back to the "golden age" of 1000 years ago.
Where folks did as they were told or they killed them--come to think of it--thats pretty much what they want now as well.

Even if we were off the oil, the rest of the world-esp the developing nations are not.
Which would create a problems for them and thus problems for us as well.

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:27 pm

Not good news...

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:01 pm

Hmmm. I wonder if all this has anything to do with people being sick and tired of the Islamo-terrorists?

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/200 ... 84966.html

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:26 am

A Study of Contrasts

On the one hand...

Wednesday, April 14th, 2004

Heads Up... from Michael Moore

Friends,

I have never seen a head so far up a Presidential ass (pardon my Falluja) than the one I saw last night at the "news conference" given by George W. Bush. He's still talking about finding "weapons of mass destruction" -- this time on Saddam's "turkey farm." Turkey indeed. Clearly the White House believes there are enough idiots in the 17 swing states who will buy this. I think they are in for a rude awakening.

I've been holed up for weeks in the editing room finishing my film ("Fahrenheit 911"). That's why you haven't heard from me lately. But after last night's Lyndon Johnson impersonation from the East Room -- essentially promising to send even more troops into the Iraq sinkhole -- I had to write you all a note.

First, can we stop the Orwellian language and start using the proper names for things? Those are not ?contractors? in Iraq. They are not there to fix a roof or to pour concrete in a driveway. They are MERCENARIES and SOLDIERS OF FORTUNE. They are there for the money, and the money is very good if you live long enough to spend it.

the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong

And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know

Published on Saturday, April 10, 2004 by Knight-Ridder

As Fighting Continues, Quest to Bring Democracy to Iraq Nears Failure

by Warren P. Strobel

WASHINGTON - President Bush invaded Iraq hoping to spread democracy across the Middle East, but after the worst week of violence since Saddam Hussein was overthrown, he's now struggling to avoid a costly, humiliating defeat.

"It was going to transform the Middle East, remember? Now all we want to do is save our butts," said former U.S. ambassador David Mack, vice president of the Washington-based Middle East Institute, a nonpartisan research center that concentrates on Arab states.

...

Wow, sounds like we really friggin blew it!

Bill

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:50 am

Since PLAN A was a little less than successful let's go to PLAN B

"I came here and voted in order to prove that Sunnis are not a minority in this country," said lawyer Yahya Abdul-Jalil in Ramadi. "We lost a lot during the last elections, but this time we will take our normal and key role in leading this country."

Many others who turned out in Fallujah, which was overrun by U.S. forces in November 2004, saw the election as a way to get rid of the Americans and the Shiite-dominated government.

"It's an extremist government. We would like an end to the occupation," said Ahmed Majid, 31.

And I bet he doesn't like Iran either.

Elections in some other Arab countries also have shown movement toward greater freedom in recent months: Palestinians have voted in free local elections in recent months, and Egypt held its freest election ever this fall, but it was marred by violence, low turnout and police intimidation at the polls. Lebanese elections also are considered among the region's freest.

DAMN YOU GEORGE BUSH!!!

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:05 am

On the other hand...

Perhaps the most visible and risible of (Kofi) Annan’s sins of commission has been his role in presiding over the Oil-For-Food scandal. This was a program designed to starve Saddam Hussein of funds without hurting the Iraqi people. Under its administration by the minions of "Annanistan," it became the exact opposite, hurting the Iraqi people and immeasurably helping its murderous dictator. Upwards of $21 billion dollars was defrauded from the program and used by Hussein to buy luxuries and weapons, to buy off journalists, and to bribe leading government officials around the world, likely including Security Council members France, Russia and China.

This bribery was designed to subvert previous sanctions and Resolutions against Saddam Hussein, and to derail efforts by America and its allies to hold Hussein accountable for his actions. Apparently, money was also funneled from the fraud to support terrorism worldwide, including the paying of homicide bombers who have killed and maimed thousands of innocent Israelis.

This money has also funded the terror attacks that continue in Iraq against civilians, US led peacekeeping and nation-building forces, and irony of ironies, UN and other humanitarian workers. Kofi Annan’s good friend Benon Savan was appointed to head this program despite having run a similar program in Afghanistan that was marked by fraud, waste and abuse. That was just a warm-up for perpetrating the greatest financial fraud in world history. Savan was apparently the recipient of over a million dollars in bribes from Hussein. The disgrace extends not just to Annan’s social network but also to his family tree. Kojo Annan, his son, a man with no previous experience in this type of program, was hired by a UN contractor which monitored food and medicine shipments to Iraq and which has been implicated in this multi-billion dollar fraud for terror program.

- The American Thinker

Polls Close in Iraq

Sunni Voter Turnout Is High
In Parliamentary Election

Associated Press
December 15, 2005 12:24 p.m.

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Iraqis voted in a historic parliamentary election Thursday, with strong turnout reported in Sunni Arab areas. Several explosions rocked Baghdad throughout the day, but the level of violence was low.

The heavy participation by the Sunnis, who had shunned balloting last January, bolstered U.S. hopes of calming the insurgency enough to begin withdrawing its troops next year.

Because of the large turnout, the Iraqi election commission extended voting for one hour to 6 p.m. local time (10 a.m. EST), as long lines were reported in some precincts, said commission official Munthur Abdelamir. The commission said results will be announced within two weeks.

{snip}

Sunnis appeared to have turned out in large numbers -- even in insurgent bastions like Ramadi and Haqlaniyah

{snip}

The big turnout in Fallujah also caused problems, with voters, election officials and the mayor complaining of a shortage of ballot boxes and ballots.

Hmm...

Does anyone remember how long it was after 1776 that we had a constitution and a government? (hint: more than a decade).

Did all go well after that? (hint: there was a bloody civil war in this country a century later, and the number of deaths dwarfed what we see in Iraq today)

What was the voter turnout in this country in our last major election vs. what just happened in Iraq today? (hint: pretty piss poor)

So, just what is YOUR definition of "success" and "victory?" Just curious...

A man who had escaped from one of Saddam Hussein's prisons after 13 years walked back to Baghdad to look for his family and somehow got past Marine guards at the Oil Ministry. The Marines found him curled up asleep in a corner. The man, Lieutenant Moore recounted, had acid and electric-shock burns on his legs.

The people who did that to the prisoner, the Lieutenat said, are the sort of people the Marines were killing. "this is not somebody you need to worry about killing" he assured his troops. "When you stand outside the Pearly Gates or whatever you believe in, you're not going to be looked at any differently for what you did here."

Lt. Col David Grossman
Making the Decision to Kill
in On Combat

Too bad about the apologists and the doom-and-gloom crowd. In the mean time, I'm impressed. I'm proud of our troops and what they have accomplished already. I am thankful for all the future lives on this end of the pond that they've saved by averting the inevitable. I'm thankful Bush had the cahones to do what The United Nations couldn't or wouldn't for all the wrong reasons.

And yes, I sleep very soundly at night - particularly as the outcomes give me more and more reason to say "I told you so."

Bill Glasheen
Sore Winner

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:28 am

But Bill, what about Iraqis without electricity (says the hand wringer). And think about what this is doing to poor Michael Moores self esteem.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:53 am

Mike wrote:
But Bill, what about Iraqis without electricity

Well... I guess you have a point there, Mike. Many Iraqis do miss "the good old days."

- Bill

We Have Not Lost This War… Yet

We Have Not Lost This War… Yet

Yup

Of course we blew it!