Fighting Posture

[JimHawkins]

Hi John,

Hmmm, well looking at Mr. Armstrong's Sig I see the name Laird, but I'm sure it must be a different Laird from the one I remember of long ago

[JimHawkins]

Actually, that's the opposite of what happened here.

Disagree.

I see the 'victor' maintaining attack and position throughout - you do not?

If not then did the 'winner' win through use of something other than continuous attack and maintaining leveraged offensive position?

Did the use of guards or other static postions, or poses play a role in the winners win?

The static defense vs. the dynamic attack is what I see this thread about at least right now and the reality of which is going to actually work is quite clear.

Maintaining facing, recovery via re-facing – attack and CG energy issuing is what I see this 'winner' and other 'winners' winning with..

[Oldfist]

.... but in the end the constant pressure of your attack is really what's going to save your face.. Pun intended.

Actually, that's the opposite of what happened here. The big girl was taken down and, put in side mount by the small girl, who then proceeded to ground and pound her. The big girl had no real ground skills, but she did manage to kick the small girl away. However, it was "the constant pressure of [her] attack" that ultimately got her knocked out. If she had good ground skills, she would have tried to stay in guard after she momentarily kicked the small girl away and created space, instead of trying to follow and ultimately getting knocked out because of it.

Actually, that's the opposite of what happened here.

I see the 'victor' maintaining attack and position throughout - you do not?

Yes, Jim, you're right the winner is the winner.

But, you promote "constant pressure of ... attack is really what's going to save your face.. " as a universal principal for being the winner which it obviously wasn't in this case. In fact, as I said, in this case the loser lost, i.e. got knocked out, because she used this principal of "constant pressure" instead of relaxing into guard and regrouping from there.

[JimHawkins]

But, you promote "constant pressure of ... attack is really what's going to save your face.. " as a universal principal for being the winner which it obviously wasn't in this case. In fact, as I said, in this case the loser lost, i.e. got knocked out, because she used this principal of "constant pressure" instead of relaxing into guard and regrouping from there.

I disagree.


1. The loser was NOT able to maintain position and attack.

2. The winner was - through pressure and change.

3. There is nothing to indicate that a 'regroup' by the loser would change the outcome since the loser clearly had no sense of position, no sensitivity and therefore no ability to issue a sustained attack.

4. The loser lost for a multitude of reasons not a single tactical error.

5. Constant pressure does not mean pressure without change, change is part of, and what allows for constant pressure.

6. Stalemates or delay tactics don't win, and are best used out of desperation and when there's a clock ticking and a score keeper.

[Dana Sheets]

BJJ skills?

I saw streetfighter. I didn't see anything else. Good streetfighter, and definitely good enough to take the fight. A good street fighter will use the formal principles of any fighting system. They just won't exactly categorize them and dissect them the way we're doing on these forums. They'll just be happy they left the other person as a little puddle of yuck at the end of the day.

Laird - if you think I live in some kind of illusion about violence in life you're sorely mistaken. If you think I train with an expectation that bystanders will save me you're again mistaken. You don't know me very well at all and I think that shows up pretty clearly in the way you post.

You've got good points Laird, just try to make them without making asumptions about my knowledge or my methods of training.

[CANDANeh]

Seen this type of brawl from Elementary school to High school.
Personally I would have broken up the skermish and I dought the bigger girl would have resisted that from occurring after the initial stage. However, some guys may protest.
Not all that savage and the kick to face did not knock her out but it hurt for sure. She/they stoped after the kick, hope they worked out thier differences.

[Oldfist]

BJJ skills?

I saw streetfighter. I didn't see anything else. Good streetfighter, and definitely good enough to take the fight. A good street fighter will use the formal principles of any fighting system. They just won't exactly categorize them and dissect them the way we're doing on these forums. They'll just be happy they left the other person as a little puddle of yuck at the end of the day.

Dana, I encourage you to view some mma UFC fights. This fight was very similar to a UFC type fight, only one fighter was a better street fighter, though neither had much training. All the principles that work for UFC type fights would work here, including good ground skills.

[Oldfist]

Laird - if you think I live in some kind of illusion about violence in life you're sorely mistaken. If you think I train with an expectation that bystanders will save me you're again mistaken. You don't know me very well at all and I think that shows up pretty clearly in the way you post.

You've got good points Laird, just try to make them without making asumptions about my knowledge or my methods of training.

Dana, on another note. I ask again, is this the same guy, Laird, that has been banned from these forums

If it is the same person, what are the forum moderator's responsibilities under these circumstances? Just a question - I'm not really sure either ...

[Luke]

I'm Laird, that must be my evil twin.

It would appear that George is giving me a break John.

Charity starts with forgiveness.

Laird

[Stryke]

BJJ skills?

I saw streetfighter. I didn't see anything else

first of Dana whats a street fighter or a brawl ? , are they streetfighters because they fight in the street ? , have you seen many karateka step up to full contact ?, many times they to will look as unskilled as this and resort to wild swinging .

As for no skill , you could perhaps argue the positions are coincidental , but you cant argue they are the reason for victory , I personally beleive the victor had some knowledge .

you should be able to see some clear Judo/bjj positions

she goes from Scarf hold to side control very well , and re-establishes position a couple times very well , she also avoids a kind of shoot and re-establishes position .

Of course this may be the worlds best luck , but Is clearly an example of active position

Did the use of guards or other static postions, or poses play a role in the winners win?

Jim`s got it here , positions are active and disruptive , same point I`m trying to make about active standup Guards , Ving Tsun is a good example the strategy is dictated by the opponents position and force and awareness and sensitivity .

where back to Chi Sao and push hands and positional strategy .

And it`ll work in co-operative sparring too .

[Oldfist]

Great discussion going on!

All of us sage martial artists can explain why the winner won, but more importantly can we describe how to train the loser to prevail in this exact scenario, i.e. attacked by a smaller, quicker opponent with some skills, how should a bigger, slower opponent approach each phase of the fight in order to increase her chances of winning and to at least keep from being knocked out?

Starting with the headlock takedown by the smaller opponent, What should the larger opponent be trying to do?

[Stryke]

the looser needs awareness of the skills the other fighter has .

they need to learn position and control and how to counter it .

the exact reason this clip was posted !!

[Oldfist]

Great discussion going on!

All of us sage martial artists can explain why the winner won, but more importantly can we describe how to train the loser to prevail in this exact scenario, i.e. attacked by a smaller, quicker opponent with some skills, how should a bigger, slower opponent approach each phase of the fight in order to increase her chances of winning and to at least keep from being knocked out?

Starting with the headlock takedown by the smaller opponent, What should the larger opponent be trying to do?

Stryke, sorry your answer is too vague.

I bet you 5 that Joe Pomfret or Joe Lauzon would have a much better, more specific answer to the question. I think I do too, but I am waiting for others.

[eSc]

but she did manage to kick the small girl away. However, it was "the constant pressure of [her] attack" that ultimately got her knocked out

I think what oldfist is trying to say is that at the moment the lady with the purple shirt kicked the white shirt lady away... if she had of stopped her "pressure" (trying to get up and continue fighting while moving towards the white shirt lady) she may have had a better chance to regain a good possition and gain some distance. This constant pressure was what lead her to a comprimising possition in the end.

So in this particular case the constant pressure at the beginning (constantly gaining the advantage possition through good mounting and distracting blows.. although im not sure how formally trained she was but would probably do well in BJJ) alowed the white shirt lady to start winning. This combined with the constant pressure of the purple shirt lady (thourghout and in the end) to try and attack, lead to (purple shirt) her loss.

But I think we've all gotten a bit off topic. The question about "what is the stance you do well with" is a hard question to answer.

Most people agree that its not a static stance. And the stance is determined by how you plan to attack / defend and how your opponent is trying to gain advantage. All of this added up and you trying to gain the advantage will determin what stance is aproperate at the time.

[Dana Sheets]

Dana, I encourage you to view some mma UFC fights. This fight was very similar to a UFC type fight, only one fighter was a better street fighter, though neither had much training. All the principles that work for UFC type fights would work here, including good ground skills.

Thanks for the suggestion and I've seen plenty of them along with K1 footage, thai boxing footage, BJJ matches, lei tai matches, and judo matches. I also did judo pretty intensely for four years. So I'm quite familiar with groundfighting goals and positions. And yes - she hit some of them in her movements. I can see the techniques that were applied in the fight - and my bet is that neither of those women would have been able to tell you about them. The one woman was simply good at keeping her feet. A natural fighter (or one who's learned through street experience) looks trained - the thing is they don't need the formal training. I'd wager she'd probably been in other fights and probably had older brothers. The other woman was probably in her first fight of this kind and never really let loose, while the victor hit "tasmanian devil" mode quickly and stayed there throughout.

eSc - thanks for the refocus.
One of the odd things about dojo fighting is there is this odd moment of positioning - movement without engagement that you'll hardly ever see outside of a training hall. The movement is something that happens in fighting outside the training hall but it is usually going on once contact is established instead of beforehand. It is during this first movement part before engagement that I sometimes struggle with the most. If I just stand still that's usually a terrible answer because my reach is so short.

John - in terms of Laird's status as banned or not banned for the general forums that's generally not something I get involved in. My position is that for my forum -- as long as people post in a respectful manner (as decided by me,) don't troll, don't use profanity like it is going out of style, don't type around the profanity sensors, and don't post lewd pictures or endlessly rant about how terrible women are, then my forum is open. Cross any of those lines and don't heed my warnings to that effect and I'll show you the door.

Basically, I expect people to be as respectful on my forum as if they were speaking in person in the company of strangers and that they be mindful of the fact that youth are probably reading many of these discussions.

So far this has worked well for me.